[belcherboy]

the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)

I think you misspelled the "best basketball conference in America". Most people spell it "Big Ten". There isn't an A, C, or C in there at all.

[jcmanson]

This year the best conference is definitely the Big East, but in the history of the NCAA the ACC has been the best.

[belcherboy]

This year the best conference is definitely the Big East, but in the history of the NCAA the ACC has been the best.

I don't know if you guys graduated from Liberty, but your spelling is atrocious!! It is spelled Big Ten in both parts of that sentence.

[jcmanson]

Which conference has the most Final Four appearances? The most recognizable programs? Who has the best winning percentage in the tournament? Who has the most appearances? The most games won?

The answer to all the above the ACC

[nickrichard]

At least the Big East and ACC know how to count!

[LUconn]

The most recognizable programs?

where are you from?

[jcmanson]

Virginia. How can you argue against UNC and Duke?

[TIMSCAR20]

There is clearly an ACC bias in this state and on this board. I like the ACC but I love the Big East. The 80's were dominated by the Big East teams. St. Johns, Syracuse, Georgetown, Villanova, Pitt. Although Duke and UNC were really good back then too and NC State stole a National Championship from Houston. The ACC gets the most media attention but that doesn't mean they are the best. I would take what Connecticut has done the past 10 years or so over any other institution's accomplishments. Also if we want to talk about storied past, we can't forget about UCLA and Kentucky and Indiana. But I know we are talking conferences but you gotta mention those teams. This season the ACC lost a ton of good players and if those guys at least some of them had stayed I would probably say the ACC is number 1 this year but I gotta give it to the Big East. The Big Ten is good too but not the best. I do like Michigan State as Mrs SCAR is from East Lansing and I almost went there to walk-on for Jud Heathcote back in the day. I was actually accepted and had arranged to work out with the team from day 1 but I decided late to go to Liberty. Tom Izzo is a great coach and a really nice guy too. Illinois is going to be a tough out in the tourney btw unless Brown shoots them out of a game. Bring on the Madness!

[Ed Dantes]

the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)

I think you misspelled the "best basketball conference in America". Most people spell it "Big Ten". There isn't an A, C, or C in there at all.

The Big 10 is a cow conference.

[PAmedic]

The Big 10 is a cow conference.

gonna send you a plate of hot, fresh cow chips then....

[belcherboy]

Virginia. How can you argue against UNC and Duke?

2 teams make up a conference? The ACC has seen its' share of success recently (last 10-15 years), Big Ten teams have had 5 different teams win the National Championship (Illinois has been to a few final fours). Big Ten teams have 10 National Championships altogether. It is obvious you have an ACC bias. My bias says that overall, the Big Ten has a tougher conference (we might not always have the top teams in the nation, but I would put our middle of the pack and lower level teams against any other conferences). History seems to show a broader amount of success across the teams in the conference. That is my definition of toughness. Although biased!!

[TIMSCAR20]

Wow Belcherboy are we just talking basketball here or what? I count 2 Big Ten Champions in the last 17 years. Michigan in 89 and 2001 Michigan St. I am with you on the ACC bias and the Big Ten is a tough, tough conference in the middle of the pack mostly every year. Illinois has been to 2 final 4's that I remember, last year and the Kendal Gill teams with Nic Anderson and I am doubting if they made it all the way now that I am thinking. The strong teams have been Ohio St. (Jim Jackson's group and Scoonie Penn's group), MSU, Michigan and sometimes Wisconsin. I would have to give the nod to the ACC if you are using Tournament success as the criteria. Duke and Carolina have been to Countless final 4's in the past 20 years and have won a few national championships. Carolina has 2 and Duke has 3 in that time span (maybe 4?) Throw in Maryland in 2002 and that is 7 in 20 years. I am no ACC apologist but I think you may be arguing FOR the ACC instead of AGAINST. I like this conversation though. I want to start another one soon about where JJ Redick ranks on the All Time ACC players.

[TIMSCAR20]

Some more historical data. This is more FYI than in support of which conference is better. Notice though that Duke and UNC are both in the top 5. You guys can extrapolate other info if you wish. I think the perameters of this argument is the last 20-25 years or so though but still here it is:

Top 50 winningest programs of all time by percentage:

Percentage
(Minimum 25 years in Division I)
First
No. School Season Yrs. Won Lost Tied Pct.
1. Kentucky.......................................1903 101 1,876 577 1 .765
2. North Carolina..............................1911 94 1,827 677 0 .730
3. UNLV...........................................1959 46 946 376 0 .716
4. Kansas ..........................................1899 106 1,825 762 0 .705
5. Duke.............................................1906 99 1,737 781 0 .690
6. UCLA...........................................1920 85 1,530 690 0 .689
7. Syracuse........................................1901 103 1,630 752 0 .684
8. St. John's (N.Y.)............................1908 97 1,668 784 0 .680
9. Western Ky. ..................................1915 85 1,481 736 0 .668
10. Utah..............................................1909 96 1,541 793 0 .660
11. Indiana..........................................1901 104 1,555 839 0 .650
12. Illinois ..........................................1906 99 1,483 803 0 .649
13. Louisville......................................1912 90 1,451 788 0 .648
14. Arkansas.......................................1924 81 1,389 758 0 .647
15. Temple..........................................1895 108 1,623 888 0 .646
16. Arizona.........................................1905 99 1,458 798 1 .646
17. Notre Dame...................................1898 99 1,548 851 1 .645
18. Weber St. ......................................1963 42 771 427 0 .644
19. Pennsylvania.................................1897 104 1,572 886 2 .639
20. DePaul ..........................................1924 81 1,280 726 0 .638
21. Cincinnati .....................................1902 103 1,465 842 0 .635
22. Murray St......................................1926 79 1,302 750 0 .635
23. Purdue ..........................................1897 106 1,475 856 0 .633
24. Connecticut...................................1901 101 1,374 799 0 .632
25. Villanova ......................................1921 84 1,379 805 0 .631
26. North Carolina St..........................1913 92 1,440 854 0 .628
27. Jackson St. ....................................1951 53 919 548 0 .626
28. Alabama .......................................1913 91 1,385 835 1 .624
29. Princeton.......................................1901 104 1,495 904 0 .623
30. UAB .............................................1979 26 511 310 0 .622
31. Texas ............................................1906 98 1,457 898 0 .619
32. New Orleans .................................1970 35 618 383 0 .617
33. Va. Commonwealth ......................1971 34 593 370 0 .616
34. Marquette......................................1917 87 1,310 825 0 .614
35. Tennessee St. ................................1945 60 995 628 0 .613
36. Brigham Young ............................1903 102 1,472 939 0 .611
37. Memphis.......................................1921 83 1,210 775 0 .610
38. Georgetown...................................1907 96 1,360 873 0 .609
39. Oklahoma .....................................1908 97 1,385 890 0 .609
40. West Virginia ...............................1904 95 1,428 918 0 .609
41. Providence ....................................1921 79 1,196 772 0 .608
42. La Salle.........................................1932 73 1,151 745 0 .607
43. Bradley .........................................1903 100 1,438 935 0 .606
44. Old Dominion ...............................1951 54 835 543 0 .606
45. Tennessee .....................................1909 95 1,330 865 2 .606
46. St. Joseph's....................................1910 95 1,378 898 0 .605
47. Holy Cross ....................................1901 85 1,177 771 0 .604
48. Alcorn St. .....................................1945 59 1,039 686 0 .602
49. N.C. A&T .....................................1953 52 846 561 0 .601
50. Navy .............................................1907 98 1,203 801 0 .600

[TIMSCAR20]

BTW Illinois did make the final 4 in 89. I was going by memory for most of the stuff I said a couple of threads ago but I double checked real quick and I was accurate.

[jcmanson]

Good discussion. It is completely off topic, and sorry for my work towards it becoming hi-jacked.

Anyways, noone has refuted the majority of my original points. OK, you can make an argument that the ACC does not have the most recognizable programs. Outside of UNC and Duke noone really has that national draw that can compete against the likes of UCLA, Michigan St., Indiana, etc. But the ACC is tied with the Big Ten with the most national championships won (10), the ACC has the most Final Four appearances, the best winning percentage in the NCAA tourney, the most appearances in the tourney, and the most games won in the tourney, and as SCAR pointed out 2 of the top 5 overall winning percentages by school are ACC schools.

And yes I do have an ACC bias since I was born and raised in ACC country.

[TIMSCAR20]

OK Belcherboy I re-read your post and I guess you were saying they have 10 overall since 1939 and you are correct. Many of those were before many of us were born though. For the record the ACC has 10 and the Big East 5(7if you count Louisville's 2 from the 80's) although the Big East is only about 25 or 30 years old. I thought this topic was more about recent history and which conference has had the most success. For future reference lets just stick to the Post Magic, Bird Era 1979-Present. Just trying to provide some structure to this discussion. I am partial to the Big East like I said before and I think this year it is the toughest conference. In the past 25-30 years I would have to say it is close among the ACC, Big East and Big 10 if you use the tournament as a major criteria.

[TIMSCAR20]

Final 4 appearances since and including 1979 (Bird V Magic):

Big 10 - 18
Big East - 12
ACC - 28

National Champions during same period:

Big 10 - 5
Big East - 5
ACC - 7


In the past 27 years 17 of the champions have come from these 3 conferences.

[LUconn]

3 what? championships?

'84 Georgetown
'85 Villanova
'99 Connecticut
'03 Syracuse
'04 Connecticut
'06 Connecticut

throw in
'80 Louisville
'86 Louisville

[LUconn]

nevermind you corrected it with your stats.

[TIMSCAR20]

Read it again Luconn I said the Big East has 5 championships and No I didn't count Marquette's Cincinatti's or Louisville's accomplishments during that time because they were not in the Big East.

[TIMSCAR20]

I corrected the other post as well.

[LUconn]

http://www.ncaasports.com/basketball/mens/history

I just don't think I'll ever be able to get over UCLA. It really is outrageous.

[TIMSCAR20]

I second that. And we think if someone wins 3 out of 4 Superbowls it is a Dynasty or if they win 2 or 3 National Championships in Football... The Only Dynastys in my opinion were the Celtics, UCLA, the Yankees and the Montreal Canadiens in Hockey. Other than that, we have not really seen a dynasty.

[belcherboy]

Final 4 appearances since and including 1979 (Bird V Magic):

Big 10 - 18
Big East - 12
ACC - 28

National Champions during same period:

Big 10 - 5
Big East - 5
ACC - 7


In the past 27 years 17 of the champions have come from these 3 conferences.

I think my biggest arguement is how many of those final four appearances (I use final four because the national champion will be in that list) were from Duke and North Carolina and how many were from the Big Ten's top 2 teams? If you eliminate UNC and Duke's appearances, you probably cut that number by 2/3's. Eliminate any 2 Big Ten teams and you still got an overwhelming majority of appearances.

Here are the numbers: (

Final Fours (since 1979) I looked at each final four to make sure, so I could have made a mistake since the numbers above don't match with my numbers below. Feel free to correct it. (I could have sworn Wake Forest made a final four once)

Big Ten:

Indiana 4
MSU 4
Michigan 3
Illinois 2
Wisconsin 1
Ohio State 1
Minnesota 1
Iowa 1
Purdue 1

ACC:

Duke 10
UNC 8
Maryland 2
Virginia 2
NC State 1

Take the numbers for what you want. It speaks to me that although the Big Ten doesn't win championships, they sure are well represented in the Final Four in terms of differing teams.

[TIMSCAR20]

Brokeback you can have my FTN (not FSN) check but please don't touch Stately Scarborough Manor Actually, my house nor my check are worth betting on officials being biased. It is a pointless arguement either way IMO. If you do what you are suppossed to do as a team, the officiateing won't have much affect on your team. I agree though that consistency is the biggest measure of how good an official is.

as for the dual topic in this thread, belcherboy I am not sure Minnesota has been to the final 4 since 79 and I know Wake never made it. I will have to look at the NCAA website again to be sure. I uderstand what you are saying though about the Big Ten and I agree that you could argue for the ACC, Big Ten or the Big East. It really depends where you were brought up I think. Trust me, we folks in the Northeast love the Big East and during its hey day there was not much basketball that was better. St. Johns, Syracuse, Pitt, Villanova and Georgetown were the teams to beat back in the 80's. Some great teams for sure.