[D Edcil]

Not to mention that the cost of running the facility is over 3x's as much as they budgeted.

I hate this junk. You hear this stuff for 4 years from students and I guess you hear it afterwards. How could anybody possibly know this? If that were true, I'm sure that whoever is managing that place and maybe 4 other people would know it. They're not gonna put it in the paper nor would they announce it in convo. I heard stuff all the time that was obviously just made up and then got "telephone gamed" right to me. I'm not saying you made this up but I'd be wary giving facts like this.

This one is true. I have seen the proposed budget, I have seen what it costs to run similar facilities and I have seen what they are spending. This is not a closely guarded secret, but trying to get money info out of the mountain is tough.

[SuperJon]

On the tuition issue:

You can get 1000 off for having a pastor signa sheet of paper.

You can get 1000 off for having an alumni sign a sheet of paper.

All students qualify for the Liberty Champion which is pretty much 1000 of a semester.

I was given 250 for books and 250 for food just for paying my deposit by a certain date.

They give away money like it's going out of style.


As for the dorms:

The new dorms are good, I won't deny that. However, those dorms are standard at other colleges, and we're charging extra for them. The freshman dorms at Coastal were much bigger than any of the rooms on the hill or circle. They also only shared a bathroom with their ONE roommate (not two) and the room of two people next to them. That's four people to a bathroom instead of around 30 to a bathroom. There were also freshman dorms that were the quad style with a living room and individual bedrooms, that were the basic cost, none extra. University Place, which is the equivalent of East Campus, only better, is basic cost, an a half mile off campus so it doesn't feel like you live on campus. Dorms at other schools have cable, some even with HBO. Students at LU are forced to watch their favorite tv shows on their computers.

As for campus life:

Yes, we have a great intramurals department and a great student center, I won't deny that. However, we don't do a ton for students. We'll occasionally have a concert, but that's only because of college for a weekend when they're trying to attract kids to the school, and then they still charge a bunch for students. I realize we just had Anathallo for $1 which is great, and there needs to be more of that. LC brought in Motioncity Soundtrack in January for free to any student with a college ID. VaTech just brought in Mae this past weekend for free to any student with a college ID. I know Motioncity Soundtrack is a secular band but you get my point. It wouldn't be hard, or too expensive, to have a band come in and play for the students. How about bringing in a comedian? There are plenty of clean comedians out there that we could book. How about showing a movie for the students? At Coastal (yes, I refer back to there because I was there and many of you have never experienced a college outside of LU) we would have a movie night occasionally. Student Life would get a move that's in between theater and DVD and play it for the students for free. It's a good way to have people come together and just hang out and have a good time. These things are all things that would vastly improve student life and wouldn't be too awfully expensive.

Yes, I know it's better than when most of you guys were there, it's just not as good as other schools. I'm not saying LU is a bad school by any means so please dont' take it as that. I've been at another school, I've seen what can be done, and these are just merely suggestions to make things better.

[jmdickens]

I agree with the money issue. Liberty is not good with it. They ripped me off over break I took an intensive in DC, charged me 500 dollars for transportation, food, and Lodging. I go there, the people tell us that it was only 250 dollars. The school lied to us. They didn't even provide us transportation from Lynchburg, and our food and lodging was included in the 250. Our conclusion was that we payed for CPAC. I still love this school

[D Edcil]

Dorms: Run down already? Are you really saying that even though you admit to not being on campus as a student?

Scholarships: You didn't answer my point. Tuition increases are more than paying for the "scholarships". I have news for you. If you raise tuition by $3,000 and give away $1,000... you actually have a net increase of $2,000. You can't point to that as a legit problem. Especially with LU now in the black and posting $12 million in revenue each year.

Campus Life: Good, you admit the student life is of high quality. The pool being too small. First of all I didn't realize that it was a requirement to have a pool and secondly I don't think it'll keep students away. I took a former student to check out the campus and he was a swimmer on his H.S. swim team which ended the year ranked in the top 3 in Texas. He said "It's small but it's here." He looked at it as a bonus, not as a requirement.

No argument on the tuition comparrisons?

On top of it all you've never been a student there?

Ok Ok I'll bite
Tuition - The first problem is we are relying too much on that for our revenue and for years we have heard "This is changing" It hasn't. As for your scenario, lets look at the economics a different way. You are assuming that there was no financial short fall when tuition was at the original (X) amount. Therefore, your theory is correct. However, if expenses have not been met by X tuition and it is raised by 3k to meet current needs then what about the increase? A simple way to look at the financial situation is this: (Enrollment Numbers are not correct) Liberty has 10,000 students. Income only manages to meet the requriements of 8,000 students. Liberty brings in 2,000 more students to make up the short fall. Liberty now has the money to pay for 10,000 students, but now has 12,000 students. Revenues are up, but still losing money. Add to the equation the expansion of facilites, general COLA, and everything else these numbers are more diverse. As always, financial figures coming from the mountain are suspect.

New Dorms - I have seen them. Not as a student, but that does not prohibit me from being there for other official purposes.
Finally, you hit my pet peeve with the pool. The quote from your swimmer sums it up - It' s small but at least it is here. That is a lot of patoookish. WHY PUT IT IN? Why not wait until it can be done the RIGHT WAY? We seem to have a mentality up here as Let's put it up now and re - do it later, only later never comes!

And now I return the soap box to BROKEBACK

[TallyW]

Close...

"In re reading your posts, I think I have found our crux, You feel we have the "bones" or foundation and all we need is the window dressing. I feel the opposite. We dont have the foundation or infrastructure, but we sure do have a lot of things that look pretty on the surface. I hope and can't wait for the day this is not so"

Yes, I agree that is where we differ. I tend to see the fact that our school is 35 years old and people have a tendency to compare us to 180 year old institutions. The very fact you can even mention these other schools says a TON about LU. The fact we'll have Wake on our schedule (and we had Rutgers) should say a lot. We are much closer than many of the doubters think.

I wouldn't call what I think needs to be changed "Window dressing". I'd call them essential components. I also wouldn't call Jeff Barber blind. He was able to look at our situation and decided to move his family several hundred miles north (from an SEC school) to run the Atheletic Department here. Obviously he felt like there was something here worth working with. Coach Rocco left UVA because he felt like there was something here to work with. These guys are guys who have vision and know that they will have the tools at LU to go out and get the job done. I agree that neither will likely be here in 10 years but they wouldn't have gone to a garbage dump. They came because they saw the opportunity that exists here.

[TallyW]

Your financial paragraph was a waste of your time. 100% of it was pure speculation. I'm working with published information. You're working from conspiracy theories.

Because you've seen the dorms doesn't mean that they are "run down". Newsflash, 18-20 year olds think their loans are free money and they aren't home owners... they will get rowdy (mainly the guys) and stuff breaks. They will pay for it in the end and the dorms will be fixed up over the summer. Have you ever been to a state school? Our dorms are 10 times better.

The reason you put that stuff in is the same reason a homeowner puts in a vinyl countertop instead of stone. It's easy to say that there aren't enough seats at the ice center or that the pool is too small for the total population but the last time I checked the rink was donated (and is the only one in our area) and the pool doesn't have to be ready for "LU group swim".

[Hold My Own]

Duke, I cant believe you blew this call!!! guys, if the school doubles as much as this does then its successful...it's one of those things where it's cool to make fun of Lynchburg and it's cool to make fun of Liberty, yet it just so happens I have 5 friends that moved away last sem. yet they are already planning on coming back after seeing the grass isnt greener....

& SJ I want to know the schools you were looking at!!! Campus East dorms being average!, I visited about 8 different schools b/c coming here and none could match that...including VaTech, UNCG, and many many others....although LU cant match the coed dorms


Pool being to small???? This isnt the only pool Campus East will be seeing, I promise you that

[Brokeback Flamer]

I was wondering where my soap box went!

[Sly Fox]

I love the passion in this discussion. How many other mid-major schools can generate this type of debate? Its a short list.

[SuperJon]

HMO, what I'm saying is that Campus East, which we're making students pay extra for, are becoming the normal upper classman dorms. Like I said, I refer to Coastal because I actually went there. Here is a photo gallery of University Place at Coastal. Here are the 2-bedroom and the 4-bedroom floor plans.

Here are the two floor plans for freshman dorms at Coastal (PDF): Quad Style and Suite Style. The suite style dorms are a lot like LU's, just a little bit bigger, and only two to a room instead of three.

Here are the floor plans for the dorms for any student:
The Gardens
The Woods

I also stayed in dorms at Lenoir-Rhyne that were like the floor plans in The Woods and The Gardens. I stayed at Catawba once and they weren't great dorms, but it was only 2 people to a room, not 3, and there were lounges on each hall, and you only shared a bathroom with one other room, not hall baths. I'll agree about UNCG having horrible dorms, at least the ones I stayed in.

[jmdickens]

i went George Washington, there dorms were three to a room, and they were half the size of the rooms in dorms around the circle. that is the truth

[Brokeback Flamer]

I had to take some time to re read everything.. here are my thoughts.

I think TW and D want the same thing, just feel they are starting from two different places. I will say, however, that it is true, just b/c something grows does not mean it is successful or provides good customer service (D E) As for the dorms being run down TW makes a good point. However, I have been to the dorms at UNCG, HMO, and they ARE MUCH nicer then Campus East. (BTW Why isnt it Campus South?It is SOUTH of 460 E/W)
D did make a good point with the financial comparison. Those who have been involved with the budgeting process at LU will tell you numbers are always skewed, so I would not put much faith in them. (Yes I have first hand info on that) There are masters of numerical manipulation up there. It is not a "conspiracy theory" to look at our financial status like that. Plus, there are several others apparently on the board who have run into LU's "creative accounting".
TALLY you are right the rink was donated so that was HUGE, def. fits a need in the area, I hope.
HMO, I believe the pool discussion was about the indoor pool not campus East/South. And if there is another pool there for summer, I may have to find and excuse to head over there on a nice sunny day. Could always use a dip!! Are Speedo's allowed?
What does this have to do with getting Christian athletes here at LU? I have no idea, but it is a darn good discussion and hope it keeps up.
BTW, since I predicted this, can I get like a degree in Prophecy or something? Soap anyone?

[SuperJon]

I'd like some feedback on what I said about campus life a few posts ago if people wouldn't mind.

[Hold My Own]

I dont know why you ever left.....didnt you know how close that is to the beach?

[Hold My Own]

I have been to the dorms at UNCG, HMO, and they ARE MUCH nicer then Campus East. (BTW Why isnt it Campus South?It is SOUTH of 460 E/W)

THIS JUST IN....YOUR NUTS!!!! but really, I didnt want to get into this on here but I will just so people dont think I've only seen them once...I dated a girl that went to school there, and I was there every week, I've been at every dorm they have to offer, even the athlete's dorms....I'd love to know the name of that dorm your saying is better....I bet it was the high rises, since the rest are pretty ghetto except for those and they can't even compete....yeah I know, I lived down there for a year...but I always stayed with her friends .....


You know what, I think I hit a soft spot...UNCG is known as UNC GAY....I'll never forget all the Gay Rights Rallies and they would walk around chanting "We're here and we're Queer and we like bubbles" I never have understood what bubbles have to do with anything but they would chant that....man I'd give anything to be 18 again even thought that was only 3 years ago!

now I will say their baseball field & stadium is second to very few and is always rated Top 10


who gave him his soap box yet????

[SuperJon]

UNC-G is UNC-Gay. I have a story from a friend that's just scary and I won't mention it.

[Sly Fox]

Thank you for showing discretion.

[SuperJon]

I don't want you to throw up.

[TallyW]

I don't know why you left either SJ. For someone who has so much more kind things to say about living conditions at Coastal I don't know what you'd want with a toilet bowl like LU.


Okay... as for the argument over bad service vs. growth. Let's put it this way. Growth happens not in spite of poor service but because the customers who complain still choose what they perceive as poor over their other options. I started getting dropped calls with Verizon so I switched to Sprint. For me, it works. Others may have the opposite problem and they switch. Take AOL for example. They may have poor service but for many people who just want email and the latest gossip colum or the ability to quickly chat with their grandkids, it's a great option even if advanced users hate the service and can't understand why people pay for it. Again, for most people using AOL it's a great product for them. This is America. People vote with their check books. Students vote with their parent's check books (or the Government's free money). There may be complaints but an honest person can't ignore the strides taking place on campus. I finished up in '01 and the place has completely changed since then. We never referred to campus "north" or "east". A tunnel under the highway was a joke. Ericcson was still Ericcson. The student body was large enough to feel like a college but small enough to where you got to know (by face) most of the student body.

Pool? Ice Hockey? D-1 football talk? TRBC on the Mountain (well, actually I went to the service when it was supposed to be on Campus East.

It's a growing school. It's becoming a great University. This is one of the things I've been concerned with... that new students wouldn't be able to appreciate what they have and they'd move off campus so quickly that campus pride goes down the drain. With such large classes of incoming freshman we're always going to fight this battle.


As for the student population thinning out at each level (soph, jr, sr)...that's normal attrition. I want to see someone bring out a study showing that LU's attrition is at a rate outside of average. It's a simple fact... people flunk out... get married... change jobs... run out of money... this happens EVERYWHERE. One can't point to that as a reason that LU is any worse than another institution.

I'm enjoying the discussion.

[SuperJon]

I wanted to be in a Christian environment, that's why I left. I could talk so much crap about LU and how Coastal is a better school but I haven't. I've given a plan as to how LU could get better and all you guys want to do is make a back handed remark about why didn't I stay. It's people like you that make me wonder if I want to go back but we won't get into that. I understand there are hassles with being as conservative as the administration would like to be, but it wouldn't be hard at all to improve student life, and that's what I was talking about.

[TallyW]

It's not back handed SJ. I honestly meant it. I don't know why people come here and talk about how great their old place was. It's a fair question... nothing personal. My point is that LU is worth your time and money and there must be a reason. There are tons of "Christian" campuses around the country. You picked LU for some reason...

[SuperJon]

I picked LU because it was the cheapest and closest to home that was a decent school, and because I met some people that seemed like good people when I met them. There's a ton that can be improved at LU. It's nowhere near the World's Most Exciting University. There are others on the board that aren't saying anything because they know people like you are going to stick up for LU no matter what, even though you're not on campus nearly as much. I'm doing my part to change the athletic part. Every school has it's bad things. We'd be completely stupid if we don't aknowledge that they're there. The dorms don't even have freaking basic cable for crying out loud. There's a ton that can be changed for the better, you just don't want to hear it.

[Sly Fox]

SJ - You know we are glad you are here. When people are passionate about something like their alma mater, sometimes we get caught up in the moment.

You'll notice some of us have laid very low in this discussion (I've been kicking back and enjoying the show). I feel this "debate" is constructive in the long run and challenges what I feel are some misconceptions about our school. If folks in this discussion didn't care about the present & future of Liberty then they wouldn't waste the time to discuss it.

[TallyW]

There is always something that can be changed for the better. Our federal government doesn't exist because we have a perfect nation. Their job is to always improve it. At times they do a better job than others.

Any institution can be improved but that isn't the question. In fact it's such an obvious point that it's a waste of time to say it. The 2nd law of thermodynamics sums that up. Anything if left alone will go bad so obviously we will always need to improve. The question at hand isn't whether we need to improve, the question is whether we can improve and attract some solid Christian kids who are good at atheletics.

My position is that LU has enough infastructure to serve as a foundation for successful growth. Others' positions are that the school is in shambles and cannot possibly advance. I just happen to think they're bonkers for thinking that considering all that LU has become in a short 35 years. To most of us 35 years is a long time and LU should be further along... but in reality LU is still a school on the rise and is setting itself up to be a great school and a University that can be competetive at all levels of sport and education. Will it be a few years? Sure. Are there things to improve? Sure. But the question is not these. The question is do we have enough to build on and make this school known in the next 15 years. I say yes. Others say no. It's simple.

I think a bunch of people are staying quiet because we are providing entertainment, not because they are worried about anyone on the board. We've never had that problem.

[SuperJon]

I just think people are confusing the "basics" now compared to the "basics" even 5-10 years ago. I don't know anyone that doesn't have at least basic tv (NBC, ABC, CBS) other than those on campus. I honestly don't think I know of anyone without ESPN, except for people on campus. Right now you have 3-4 kids huddled around one laptop trying to watch Lost or 24 or the Amazing Race.

People get in trouble when they are bored. No one will deny that. I know people that got reps because they got in a pillow fight, just to pass time. I know people that got reps because they turned their hall into a giant slip n slide. Those are the types of things people do when they're bored. A movie night, a concert, a comedian, even cable, would at least give these kids something to do. Then again, LU wouldn't get the money from rep fines if they did that. How about more places for guys and girls to just hang out? There are barely any places on campus where a group of guys and a group of girls can hang out and even play a board game or something like that. One of the most fun times I've had this semester was having 4-5 people over here playing a gigantic game of Monopoly but there's nowhere on campus to do that without going to North or something. I understand guys and girls not being allowed in each dorms, and I agree with it, but give the kids some place to hang out together.