[Hold My Own]

Anyone remember or know the sermon about people that "could/should" have been aborted due to circumstances? (rape, incest, etc)
I think one was Einstein but maybe he wasnt....UGH


Anyone? It was a long ago mabe 2002? 2003? or so

[TDDance234]

There are transcripts of Doc's notes on TRBC.org. I will do some hunting but never hurts for another pair of eyes to scroll through.

[Hold My Own]

Thanks for reminding me buddy here's what I was looking for:

IS ABORTION EVER JUSTIFIED?

Would you consider abortion in any of the following four situations?

(1) There's a preacher and his wife who are very, very, poor. They already have 14 children. Now she learns that she's pregnant with the 15th. They're living in abject poverty.
Considering their poverty, and the excessive world population, would you recommend she get an abortion?

(2) The father is sick with syphilis, the mother has TB. They have four children. The first is blind, the 2nd is deaf, the 3rd is deaf and the 4th has TB. She finds she's pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you recommend an abortion?

(3) A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider abortion?

(4) A teenage girl is pregnant. She is not married. Her fiancée is not the father of the baby, and he's very upset.

Would you consider recommending abortion?


IF YOU RECOMMENDED AN ABORTION ON ANY OR ALL OF THESE FOUR SITUATIONS............

(1) In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists of the 19 century.

(2) In the second case, you'd have killed Beethoven.

(3) In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.

(4) If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have sanctioned the murder of Jesus Christ!!

[Ed Dantes]

5) Klara is twenty-eight, married three years, the wife of a government worker; she has the look of a woman accustomed to anguish.

Concerned for the ultimate health of her unborn, Klara explains that for each year of her marriage she has had a child--and each has died; the first within thirty-one months, the second within sixteen months, the third within several days.

Disease? You ask.

Klara nods. She suspects that any future child would be equally susceptible. For you see, her husband is also her second cousin. Both Catholic, they received papal dispensation to marry--though now Klara questions their wisdom in asking permission.

And there's something else...

One of Klara's sisters is a hunchback; another sister, the mother of a hunchback.

Klara is in the first trimester of her fourth pregnancy. The odds are against the health of her child. Time is running out.

And it is only later that you learn--Klara's husband is not, as she has said, her second cousin. He is her uncle.

So what, Doctor, is your advice?






IF YOU RECOMMENDED AN ABORTION IN THIS SITUATIONS............

(5) You would have spared the world from Hitler. Way to go.

[Hold My Own]

interesting

[kel varson]

Put them to death for "Crimes against humanity", before they have a chance to have kids.

[Hold My Own]

So Ed does this mean you agree with abortion in certain circumstances? I'm simply asking...to be honest, I really dont know how I feel...certain situations could turn out great for the child, but then their are those that are devastating due to retardation or mental problems...I think I'd be for the abortion if rape, etc...but again, I really cant say for sure

[El Scorcho]

I recently heard a great sermon about abortion which featured testimony from a man who was the child of a rape. His mother chose not to abort and he's now the pastor of a great church in North Carolina. In fact, if you'd like to hear the sermon, here's a link.

[belcherboy]

What about if your wife's life was in danger? I had heard some pastors state that it is their Biblical duty to protect their wife first and foremost.

[SuperJon]

That's the only time I'd consider it.

[Schfourteenteen]

Its a logical fallacy, thats all. You cant use 4 circumstances to go over the whole scope of things. Thats why Hitler is there, because for each good person who comes out of a situation there is probably a bad one too.

[Ed Dantes]

So Ed does this mean you agree with abortion in certain circumstances? I'm simply asking...to be honest, I really dont know how I feel...certain situations could turn out great for the child, but then their are those that are devastating due to retardation or mental problems...I think I'd be for the abortion if rape, etc...but again, I really cant say for sure

I was prepared to respond to this, but Schfourteenteen basically said what I was going to say.

[FlameDad]

Its a logical fallacy, thats all. You cant use 4 circumstances to go over the whole scope of things. Thats why Hitler is there, because for each good person who comes out of a situation there is probably a bad one too.

That's the point - we don't know the outcome, only God does!
We are all "bad people" and capable of gross evil until saved by grace.
I would hope I/we would commit it to his providence....
I agree that in the case of the mother's life in danger that the mom comes first.

[El Scorcho]

Its a logical fallacy, thats all. You cant use 4 circumstances to go over the whole scope of things. Thats why Hitler is there, because for each good person who comes out of a situation there is probably a bad one too.

So is the point that it's a logical fallacy or that abortion is okay because some babies might turn into bad people?

I'm just trying to get clarity.

[LUconn]

Wait, so hitler was retarded?

What about if your wife's life was in danger? I had heard some pastors state that it is their Biblical duty to protect their wife first and foremost.

Well yes. Obviously you should be protecting your wife. But would God expect you to break one of his own laws to do so? I would also think that your wife has some say in the matter, and I can't imagine her saying "please kill this baby inside me so that I may live a little bit longer."

[Schfourteenteen]

Its a logical fallacy, thats all. You cant use 4 circumstances to go over the whole scope of things. Thats why Hitler is there, because for each good person who comes out of a situation there is probably a bad one too.

So is the point that it's a logical fallacy or that abortion is okay because some babies might turn into bad people?

I'm just trying to get clarity.

I cant speak for him but logical fallicy

You cant use that arguement thats all

It's like when people say well you could have aborted the guy who cures cancer. Thats not a meaningful statement because you could have aborted Hitler, too.

[jcmanson]

I'm sorry but abortion is not right no matter what the situation is. Even if the mom's status was doomed for her to die because of the baby, that is still not right to kill the baby in that situation. Sure it would be a rough situation, but killing the unborn is NEVER right.

[kel varson]

I'm sorry but abortion is not right no matter what the situation is. Even if the mom's status was doomed for her to die because of the baby, that is still not right to kill the baby in that situation. Sure it would be a rough situation, but killing the unborn is NEVER right.

My guess is that you are in the minority on that one.

[jcmanson]

I'm sorry but abortion is not right no matter what the situation is. Even if the mom's status was doomed for her to die because of the baby, that is still not right to kill the baby in that situation. Sure it would be a rough situation, but killing the unborn is NEVER right.

My guess is that you are in the minority on that one.

That's fine, never has hurt my feelings, but I believe that all things work together for the good of those that love Christ. If a doctor is saying the mom may pass due to a complicated pregancy, then I believe that God will work that situation out so others may draw closer to Him in that situation. Of course not all in this situation are Christians, but that's still my belief. You never know God could work a miracle and both could come out fine.

[kel varson]

I'm sorry but abortion is not right no matter what the situation is. Even if the mom's status was doomed for her to die because of the baby, that is still not right to kill the baby in that situation. Sure it would be a rough situation, but killing the unborn is NEVER right.

My guess is that you are in the minority on that one.

That's fine, never has hurt my feelings, but I believe that all things work together for the good of those that love Christ. If a doctor is saying the mom may pass due to a complicated pregancy, then I believe that God will work that situation out so others may draw closer to Him in that situation. Of course not all in this situation are Christians, but that's still my belief. You never know God could work a miracle and both could come out fine.

Yeah, I've heard of miracles. But I hope you wouldn't think it evil of someone to decide their wife was just as important as the baby. Or for that matter that the women didn't want to put her life in danger.

[jcmanson]

My guess is that you are in the minority on that one.

That's fine, never has hurt my feelings, but I believe that all things work together for the good of those that love Christ. If a doctor is saying the mom may pass due to a complicated pregancy, then I believe that God will work that situation out so others may draw closer to Him in that situation. Of course not all in this situation are Christians, but that's still my belief. You never know God could work a miracle and both could come out fine.

Yeah, I've heard of miracles. But I hope you wouldn't think it evil of someone to decide their wife was just as important as the baby. Or for that matter that the women didn't want to put her life in danger.

I wouldn't think it was evil, just something I would not personally do. It would no doubt be a very difficult situation.

[LUconn]

My guess is that you are in the minority on that one.

That's fine, never has hurt my feelings, but I believe that all things work together for the good of those that love Christ. If a doctor is saying the mom may pass due to a complicated pregancy, then I believe that God will work that situation out so others may draw closer to Him in that situation. Of course not all in this situation are Christians, but that's still my belief. You never know God could work a miracle and both could come out fine.

Yeah, I've heard of miracles. But I hope you wouldn't think it evil of someone to decide their wife was just as important as the baby. Or for that matter that the women didn't want to put her life in danger.

I would really think less of a woman who "didn't want to put her life in danger" so that her baby could live. For a guy in this situation, it's kind of like choosing between your wife and your child. Not that it's really your choice at all so it's kind of moot anyway. But for a woman, it's choosing life for yourself or your child. I think you're scum if you jump out of the way of a bus instead of pushing your child out of the way. Why would this be any different.

[jcmanson]

That's fine, never has hurt my feelings, but I believe that all things work together for the good of those that love Christ. If a doctor is saying the mom may pass due to a complicated pregancy, then I believe that God will work that situation out so others may draw closer to Him in that situation. Of course not all in this situation are Christians, but that's still my belief. You never know God could work a miracle and both could come out fine.

Yeah, I've heard of miracles. But I hope you wouldn't think it evil of someone to decide their wife was just as important as the baby. Or for that matter that the women didn't want to put her life in danger.

I would really think less of a woman who "didn't want to put her life in danger" so that her baby could live. For a guy in this situation, it's kind of like choosing between your wife and your child. Not that it's really your choice at all so it's kind of moot anyway. But for a woman, it's choosing life for yourself or your child. I think you're scum if you jump out of the way of a bus instead of pushing your child out of the way. Why would this be any different.

I agree LU conn

[Ed Dantes]

Its a logical fallacy, thats all. You cant use 4 circumstances to go over the whole scope of things. Thats why Hitler is there, because for each good person who comes out of a situation there is probably a bad one too.

So is the point that it's a logical fallacy or that abortion is okay because some babies might turn into bad people?

I'm just trying to get clarity.

I cant speak for him but logical fallicy

You cant use that arguement thats all

It's like when people say well you could have aborted the guy who cures cancer. Thats not a meaningful statement because you could have aborted Hitler, too.

Exactly, most of the people on this board are pro-life (and I'm one of them). The issue is that El Scorcho or whoever it was defended his beliefs by pointing to four instances where it would have been morally abhorrent (more so) to abort the baby. Even though I'm on his side, I merely wanted to show how easy it is to counter that argument.

Sheesh. IMHO, if you're looking for a way to defend anti-abortion views, I submit this with one comment:

"Shouldn't we err to the side of life?"

[Ed Dantes]

Yeah, I've heard of miracles. But I hope you wouldn't think it evil of someone to decide their wife was just as important as the baby. Or for that matter that the women didn't want to put her life in danger.

I would really think less of a woman who "didn't want to put her life in danger" so that her baby could live. For a guy in this situation, it's kind of like choosing between your wife and your child. Not that it's really your choice at all so it's kind of moot anyway. But for a woman, it's choosing life for yourself or your child. I think you're scum if you jump out of the way of a bus instead of pushing your child out of the way. Why would this be any different.

I agree LU conn

I can't even imagine the agony of having to choose between your wife or your unborn child, and because it is such an agonizing decision many pro-choice advocates point to it as the end-all-be-all argument for their beliefs. But the fact is that that situation occurs a small percentage of the time in abortion cases -- like 3-6 percent of the time.