[TDDance234]

I'm going to Brentwood now and I feel like it's either hit or miss. Sometimes Jon (not of the super variety) hits a homerun with his sermon and sometimes he lays a complete egg. Yesturday, was a big fat egg. They just don't open the bible enough.

As far as churches I've been to in the past:

Started at Faith Temple Baptist in Virginia Beach
Moved over to First Baptist Church of Norfolk, where I accepted Christ
interned at Memorial Baptist Church in Pulaski, VA in the Summer of 04.
spent a year at First Norfolk as an associate youth pastor
interned at The Chapel in North Canton, OH in the Summer of 05.
Back to LU to finish up my degree.
and finally, interned at Kempsville Baptist Church in Virginia Beach in the summer of 06.

[bigsmooth]

with all due respect SJ, if you like a small church then just say that.i can understand that some just do not like big churches and that is ok, to each his own, but please try not to insinuate about TRBC. i really like TRBC, and since i moved back that was my first choice. i really like the praise and worship music there. i grew up in shenandoah baptist in roanoke, then brookhill wesleyan in forest, then crossroads fellowship in raleigh. i also worked with young life in roanoke, and it was such a fun time, and made me see a different approach to winning souls to Christ.

[krh44]

I grew up in a smalled Baptist church in Stuarts Draft. After school had a tough time getting plugged into a church but was going to TRBC. Moved to Culpeper and had a great church there - Open Door Baptist and since I moved back I have been going to Berean Baptist. My wife and I wanted a smaller church but I have been going there almost 3 years and don't feel like I know a lot of the people there. I hope to try out TRBC again.

[Rocketfan]

I'm going to Brentwood now and I feel like it's either hit or miss. Sometimes Jon (not of the super variety) hits a homerun with his sermon and sometimes he lays a complete egg. Yesturday, was a big fat egg. They just don't open the bible enough.

As far as churches I've been to in the past:

Started at Faith Temple Baptist in Virginia Beach
Moved over to First Baptist Church of Norfolk, where I accepted Christ
interned at Memorial Baptist Church in Pulaski, VA in the Summer of 04.
spent a year at First Norfolk as an associate youth pastor
interned at The Chapel in North Canton, OH in the Summer of 05.
Back to LU to finish up my degree.
and finally, interned at Kempsville Baptist Church in Virginia Beach in the summer of 06.

Wow TD thats funny. I went back to brentwood yesterday for the first time in 3 years ( i have been going to blueridge) and me and my buddy both thought the sermon was awesome. I forgot how much i liked that church ( i went to it when it only had about 50 members) for the 3 years i attended.

[SuperJon]

with all due respect SJ, if you like a small church then just say that.i can understand that some just do not like big churches and that is ok, to each his own, but please try not to insinuate about TRBC.

The only thing I "insinuated" was that I didn't like TRBC because it was big. I then said Thank God the entire student body doesn't have to go there because that doesn't allow for growth when you force people to go to a certain church. Chill out.

[TallyW]

Do you guys who have been to a bunch of churches do anything there besides 'watch the show'?

I'm honestly asking.


Reading this thread, it looks like everyone with an opinion is looking for 'Me-Church'. Too Big, Too Small, Too Hip, Too Boring, 'Home Run' sermon, 'Big Fat Egg' sermon... I thought the church was a gathering of people who follow Jesus and are on Mission to reach the world with the Gospel. I didn't realize people still thought it was about Sunday morning and treating the body of Christ like an American Idol competition.

So at the end of the day I ask 'Is your church home a launching pad or a seat cushion for your faith lived out?'

[Cider Jim]

Tally, you make an excellent point, and for nearly 20 years I was caught up in being only a passive observer in several mega churches:

ages 18-22: attended Highland Park Baptist Church (auditorium seated 5,000) in Chattanooga while in college
ages 22-24: attended Grace Gospel Church (auditorium seated over 1,000) in Huntington while in grad school
ages 24-37: attended Thomas Road Baptist Church (auditorium seated over 3,000) during my early teaching career

During those years, I was in church almost every Sunday, but that was all I was doing--sitting and listening but not really being involved in the "work" or "ministry" of the church. It wasn't until 1998 that I found a smaller church, Rivermont Ave. Baptist, to really get involved in--teaching, being in small groups, serving, etc. That's not to say that all those things couldn't have also happened in a mega church, but the temptation, for me, was just to observe (for nearly 2 decades) rather than to participate.

[thepostman]

Do you guys who have been to a bunch of churches do anything there besides 'watch the show'?

I'm honestly asking.


Reading this thread, it looks like everyone with an opinion is looking for 'Me-Church'. Too Big, Too Small, Too Hip, Too Boring, 'Home Run' sermon, 'Big Fat Egg' sermon... I thought the church was a gathering of people who follow Jesus and are on Mission to reach the world with the Gospel. I didn't realize people still thought it was about Sunday morning and treating the body of Christ like an American Idol competition.

So at the end of the day I ask 'Is your church home a launching pad or a seat cushion for your faith lived out?'

very good question...my first instinct was to attack back, but then I realized that if you go back in read my threads you will see that I admit that I struggle with this mind set

I struggle with the mindset that the church needs to fit me and be perfect...It is not right at all, and no church is perfect and no church is going to fill every need...I have fallen into the trap of what can you do for me?? and I have done little in return...

so you are completely right, I have fallen into this me church kind of attitude and its something I realize which is why I have stayed at Calvary Chapel...So I can get involved and operate in a way people should operate at church....

Of course when looking for a church you are going to look for things you agree with and don't agree with...there are different styles of churches for a reason, not that one style is better then another or whatever, but different people desire to worship God differently....there is nothing wrong with looking into churches like that...but what is wrong (which I do) is when you get to a church and you really feels its a good fit for you and you proceed to sit and do nothing and pick at things that could be different.....

so even though I was instantly going to jump on you for attacking, I realized that would be stupid of of me and I know that I do need an improved attitude in this area, I have known this for a while and it is a constant struggle....and I think it is for a lot of people....

[BJWilliams]

really I didn't start the bouncing from church to church thing until I got to Lynchburg. Since Ive been here I have been to Thomas Road Baptist Church, Hyland Heights Baptist Church (where ATrain attended), Rivermont Avenue Baptist Church, The Lynchburg Church (changed its name but I forget what it is now), and Heritage Baptist Church. Really I think I have gotten to the point where I am one of those people looking for a "me-church" as you describe, but as I started going more regularly to Heritage this semester, I came to a point where I realized that this shouldn't be about finding a church that "fits", its about finding one where you can utilize the gifts God has given you, which is why Im going to be more involved at Heritage come the fall.

[flameshaw]

I am looking for a church that has nothing to do with "ME" and where I will be miserable, but somehow I don't have a real good incentive to complete the task, so I will keep going to the one that I like, for the time being.

[El Scorcho]

Do you guys who have been to a bunch of churches do anything there besides 'watch the show'?

I'm honestly asking.

Isn't that sort of backhanded question? I get the point you're trying to make, but you're doing it in such an insulting way that it's almost hard to stick to just that point. Just because you're honestly asking it doesn't make it okay. And just because someone visited a few churches before settling in doesn't mean they just want to watch a show. It may mean that they're discerning in how a church conducts itself because (and I know this is a just a totally wild idea) sometimes that conduct can greatly affect that church's ability to reach the world with the Gospel. I personally feel that I'm better off finding a church that runs it's ministries (both on the front-end and the back-end) in a way that I can get behind, rather than finding one where I'd always feel things could be done better. Sometimes all it takes is one visit to determine where a church is at, and that has nothing to do with watching a show.

Reading this thread, it looks like everyone with an opinion is looking for 'Me-Church'. Too Big, Too Small, Too Hip, Too Boring, 'Home Run' sermon, 'Big Fat Egg' sermon... I thought the church was a gathering of people who follow Jesus and are on Mission to reach the world with the Gospel. I didn't realize people still thought it was about Sunday morning and treating the body of Christ like an American Idol competition.

Yes, that is what the church is supposed to be. Not all churches are, and those of us who grew up in dead or dying churches sometimes like to avoid getting sucked back into them. If I'm judging a sermon or the way a church leads worship or how they dig into the scripture, it's for a solid reason. Not because I want to be entertained. I realize that the body of Christ is made up of flawed human beings, but being flawed and being lazy are two different things. I will not be part of a lazy group of Christians. I want to be involved with a church that is made up of believers who are putting forth every effort they possibly can to minister to the world around them. That includes everything from the way they greet people at the door on Sunday mornings to the way the sermon is delivered later in the day. From the way they give to the way they set out to spread the Gospel to the community around them. Like it or not, Sunday morning is a big part of the church's chance to make an impact in the local community and if the effort isn't there, there are a lot of people who will never be convinced the church is anything more than they've always thought it was.

Frankly, I find it extremely condescending that you'd go "pulpit time" on us and suggest that anyone here is just looking to be entertained on Sunday morning. That's such a huge and ugly assumption to make about people on a message board who were just asked where they're going to church and why they like it. I mean, for crying out loud, it's hard enough to get people to talk about this stuff and then you're going to swoop in and question their motives? I don't like that at all.

I'm honestly answering.

[TallyW]

Scorcho... no need for the drama.

It doesn't bother me that you were offended. It bothers me that a lot of people are in that camp.
Again, if you serve in your church and are a part of the fabric of that congregation, my question doesn't apply...

If you're a person who acts like a hungry hungry hippo with every ministry you come in contact with, you're not following Christ, you're following a model/program/style/person. It's a Consumer approach... not a missionary one.

Here's an idea. If you're not greeted properly at a church but you believe they teach and preach God's word... START A GREETING MINISTRY. If you're in your church and the A/V is screwed up... Start an A/V team. The grass is greener on the other side because they water their grass.

Look... my question was never about people looking for a church for the first time. In fact if you read the thread you'll see most of the people talked about how they were at a church for months or years before finding a problem and moving on. I'm not talking about 'dating'. I'm talking about marriage. When you say "This is my church." I'm asking "What are you doing besides being a critic and taking up a seat." "Are you and active part of making that churches influence better? Or are you part of the consumerist problem?"

You can't CONSUME everywhere you go and expect to truly experience Jesus. He was a servant. He gave of himself and he was the opposite of a consumer. He fed others, he didn't sit around crying to be fed. He told his apostles to do likewise. He said he was sending them like sheep among wolves. He said we'd be insulted and persecuted because of him... and all we can do is ask "Did he hit a home run?" "Did my teen enjoy the light-show." "Did I 'feel' appreciated." "Did I get to use MY gifts?"

Moving to an area and visiting a few churches to find a basic feel is understandable... The truth is that most church members bounce around without getting involved and they end up going to a church long enough to find problems just before they leave. I'm advocating that Christian men lead their families to be a part of the solution and not a part of the peanut gallery. I'm not bothered that this type of challenge frustrates a few people. In fact Scorcho... if you look at 'thepostman's comments... it reveals a genuine reason for the question being asked. No need to flip out. Does your Pastor ever ask probing questions? wow.

[bbrothers224]

One of our pastors at Hope Church here in Richmond, VA did a 4 week series called the "Volunteer Revolution". One of the points stressed was that all of us who follow Christ are called / supposed to be in the game out on the field...not watching from the stands. Part of me was going, "you get 'em...stick it to 'em"...and then I would say to myself..."Billy...you jerk". Here I am doing this self righteous move...when I'm the one who gets a bit ticked because I'm not playing my guitar in worship as much as I think I should be playing. I'm 47 now and I've been a Chrsitian since I was 11. I know all the right buzz words / Christianese that's out there and I admit that sometimes it's easy for me to fall in that "I know it all" trap. It's in those struggles that I find that Grace is truly alive and no matter how much we think we know...we're all the walking wounded when we reach those pearly gates.

[El Scorcho]

Scorcho... no need for the drama.

You brought it. Wasn't me.

Here's an idea. If you're not greeted properly at a church but you believe they teach and preach God's word... START A GREETING MINISTRY. If you're in your church and the A/V is screwed up... Start an A/V team. The grass is greener on the other side because they water their grass.

And my point is that if I'm looking for a church and I find one where they recognize that the grass needs to be watered, I'm much more likely to get involved there than I am with one that's ignoring their grass. Get it? I understand how that applies to people where they are, but I don't have enough time in this life to waste on fighting battles over starting new things. My past church experiences have taught me just how petty people can be over things like starting an A/V team, especially when someone else is already running the A/V stuff and screwing it up. In terms of searching for a church, for me, it makes more sense to find a place that's running smoothly and get involved in their ministry. If things are running effectively, that's where I want to be. I want to be a part of the church that is trying to maximize impact. Maybe that's just me, but that's how I approach it.

Look... my question was never about people looking for a church for the first time. In fact if you read the thread you'll see most of the people talked about how they were at a church for months or years before finding a problem and moving on. I'm not talking about 'dating'. I'm talking about marriage. When you say "This is my church." I'm asking "What are you doing besides being a critic and taking up a seat." "Are you and active part of making that churches influence better? Or are you part of the consumerist problem?"

Right, but I don't understand why you're asking that. That's my point. Everyone was being open and honest and then you come along and shift the direction of the thread. I just don't understand why it was necessary for you to question people's motives.

In fact Scorcho... if you look at 'thepostman's comments... it reveals a genuine reason for the question being asked.

Again, I get where you're coming from, but I just don't understand why you brought it into this thread. It just seems like a separate discussion for people who know each other a little bit better than we do here.

No need to flip out.

I didn't flip out. I just gave you an honest reaction to your honest question. I have yet to flip out on this board. I'm getting too old for that anymore, anyway.

Does your Pastor ever ask probing questions? wow.

Yes, but he's my pastor. You are not. I don't know you, so for you to probe and question motives and intentions just comes across in a condescending way to me. I don't mean for that to be an insult. I'm just telling you how it comes across. Those kinds of questions are fine when you're in a close accountability relationship with a brother or sister in Christ, but I just don't think it's tactful to question the motivations of someone who you don't really know all that well. I don't know what your experiences have been with churches in the past, but I've been burned big, bad and hard by trying to be involved and minister in churches that had no motivation. I don't just mean that I got my feelings hurt either. I've seen lives ruined just because people didn't think the "grass" needed to be "watered". When I see those kinds of churches, I don't give them a second thought. Criticize me if you like, but I find ministry to be much more fulfilling when I'm working with a body of believers that don't mind putting in the work of ministry.

Listen, I know you mean well, I just don't think it was the right time or place to ask such a thing. I think you have some valid points and you're trying to push a good thing. I just don't think this was the right time and place to do it.

[thepostman]

here is the thing tally...this is a message board...it is much harder to tell what people's intentions are when all you can do is sit down and read....my initial reaction was very much like scorcho's, but i knew what you were getting at and decided not to take it to another level....

I do not think anybody that has posted on this thread that thinks its ok to simply be taking up a seat....do we struggle with that mind set??? of course...i think everybody has at some point...there is no need to get angry at us for being completely honest with the question...I believe I was straight up with how my attitude needed to be changed towards church....as was everybody else

anyways...just remember, we don't know you....we have no idea your tone or anything when reading what you write...we just read it....

[TallyW]

I think there are over 400 people who are registered to post on this board. The thread was 2 pages long with quotes. My question was an open one. Getting ticked off and angry in your tone was your choice. Frankly it shouldn't matter who is asking you to check motives... if what I'm asking is true you should accept it as such. If my concern is bogus, brush it off like we do on 98% of the posts that don't have a point.

It IS a board. It IS open ended. This IS the Chapel. Scripture IS relevant to how we approach 'church'. This IS Liberty University. We're SUPPOSED to be Christian men on here. I'd think we'd have enough in our spiritual lunch bag to be able to handle checking our lives, attitudes and comments up against God's word REGARDLESS of who brings the point. We either have the right heart, motivation and attitude in life or we don't.

It's nearly impossible for this board to talk about anything serious and when I bring up an open question Scorcho flips out as if I was a former Deacon that said one too many things to him in the hallway.

Get over it Scorcho... I ask a legit question that obviously struck a chord with several people. As well it should. Churches are dying every day because of poor attitudes like this. We can't keep treating the church like a cafeteria. Scripture tells us that the church is the body of Jesus Christ. The trend is for the average church member to sit on their blessed assurance and talk smack about what is and is not being done right while making excuses for what they can contribute to the body of Christ. It's lame. It's weak. It's not the mission we're given and it's certainly not the lesson we learned from our time on the Mountain. Checking out a few churches to get grounded in a new town is one thing... bouncing around from church to church without ever planting roots and ministering shoulder to shoulder to advance the Gospel is spiritual neglect. The Church as a whole suffers when it's members sit on the sideline. Too bad people get bothered by it... tell me it's not true. Then we'll talk.

Truth is Barna gives a statistic of 5 years for the average person to consider someone their 'Pastor'. Meaning in most churches the seats are filled with people who are still "deciding" if they will stick around. Lets see... if I change churches every few years and it takes me 5 years to really and truly accept Pastoral leadership... that means in my adult life I likely NEVER will do so. I'll go and be a part of the show... as long as I'm not 'offended' I'll toss in a few bucks... but the rest of the time I'll sit around and mope about how the various aisles in my spiritual supermarket could have fit me better.

You guys know it's wrong and as you've alluded it matters. We get a topic going in the chapel that applies enough to rub you a little bit and we want to shoot the messenger. Scorcho... you said you're not happy with dead and dying churches... neither am I. The way they stop dying is when guys like the men on this board get off their rear-ends and throw their support behind the ministries they are in. When we 2nd guess the sports teams on this board it's being a fan... their are not pure 'fans' in Christianity. We're all on the team. It's time for all of us to get in the game. If I've ruffled a few feathers... good... It probably means this issue is convicting to you and you need to step it up. If what I am speaking of doesn't apply... go play with avatars or spend time trying to 'caption this' on some other post. As Christian brothers and sisters I'm actually supportive of us having some meaningful conversation that actually may change our churches as a result of this board.

While I didn't expect my comments to stir up so much emotion, it may be a good thing in the end.

[El Scorcho]

I'm not sure you even read my post, man. I didn't flip out at all. In fact, I said:

Listen, I know you mean well, I just don't think it was the right time or place to ask such a thing. I think you have some valid points and you're trying to push a good thing. I just don't think this was the right time and place to do it.

I guess I just consider guy checks and accountability something I need a little more of a relationship with someone to do. I get that you don't and I'm not standing in your way. Like I said, it was just an honest reaction to your question. No flipping out, I just took a little offense. That's all I wanted to communicate. It's just a difference in how we approach people.

I'd think we'd have enough in our spiritual lunch bag to be able to handle checking our lives, attitudes and comments up against God's word REGARDLESS of who brings the point.

I'm still look for where you used God's word to check anyone in this thread.

Bottom line: I still think the subject is off topic for this thread, but I'm getting out of your way just to make nice. Knock yourself out.

[SuperJon]

You people write too much.

[TallyW]

Yes we do apparently have different toleration levels. I personally would like to see more 'guy checks'. It'd be healthy for Christian men. I don't think our church culture over the last 100 years has helped men take the lead. That's a different story.


As for the scripture references... If you thought my post came across harsh as is... imagine if I cited every reference I made to Jesus, the church being the body, Paul, etc. That WOULD be obnoxious. I'll be glad to do that for anyone who wants it but I've been working under the assumption that everyone here took bible 101 and got my drift.


As a side note, I PM'd Scorcho just before he posted the above note so I too have attempted to clear the air. For everyone else, my comments were not and are not to be taken as an address to any ONE person or comment on the thread. I asked the question as a general vibe I picked up... As some of the responses indicated my question was very relevant and timely to some who chose to respond and I'm sure to some who just took the thought and filed it away.

I'm all for the board and trivialities we talk about... it's a nice 'timeout' from life. But I do hope we can have some gut-check conversations from time to time. It seems to me that the Chapel gets attention when someone dies or wants prayer. Apart from that it's a ghost town. For a board with hundreds of posters it'd be nice to discuss basic faith issues. I'm not advocating Tulip/FreeWill debates... I'm simply saying that it'd be nice to see us have conversations about the Spiritual side of life and get advice/encouragement from one another in that world from time to time as well...

[El Scorcho]

PM'ed you back. I think we're all good. Just trying to communicate different things, and doing so much too emotionally...especially for two dudes.

[thepostman]

group hug!! ok...not really

i think we all agree...I just think I just saw this as an issue that we all acknowledged was a problem with our attitudes and it didn't need to be focused on so much....

accountability is something that we all need....but not in a public forum where both non christians and christians post....that is how i view it....though people may think differently...which is why I reacted the way I did in my initial response....

[Sly Fox]

I came in this evening after this thread had worked through its issues. Frankly I like the discussion. It was thought provoking from both perspectives. I like seeing us tested.

[Jasmen8182]

I think Tally has a lot of passion but (from my own experience in work places) would probably be called abrasive- you made good pts. but then reiterated A BIT. El Scorcho handled himself well, IMO. That's it.

I grew up in EastLongmeadow First Baptist (MA).
At LU, TRBC-had to (though my roomies w/ cars or friends w/ cars went "hoppin"
After LU, home church bored me-almost no college/carreer people; the one guy that intro. me to LU and went back for his Master's after finding out that I broke up w/ 3yr. boyfriend... stopped going there (non-committal in a few ways)
I went off track for a while then made friends/became engaged "unofficially" to guy very involved in street witness (started March for Jesus in Springfield, MA) we attended Faith Tabernacle; when he dissed me and broke things off in a disrespectful, unloving, immature way I went off track again but quickly decided I didn't want to date an unsaved guy... I then hung out w/ some Christian friends but became lonely and felt shunned as I saw one that I knew better than to date become accepted into "witness group" (that would've been perfect time to go back to my Baptist church. I am thankful for the exposure to a more charismatic church. (More abt. that time in my life and how I ended back at the Baptist church some other time and thread).
Now we attend The Bible Church in Waterbury, CT-my husband is a 20yr. member; I've been here 5.5
PS-yes, Tally, I know my motivations were wrong (except deep down wanting God's best but being in sooo much pain). I should've been more proactive....

[TallyW]

Jasmen... I didn't call out individuals.

Also I'm okay with being called 'abrasive' if it means that what I said was true and uncomfortable. If it's not true and still uncomfortable I would probably be a jerk. As I said I prefer a good nudge toward a Christ-like attitude whenever I can get it. If it's on a board, so be it. As for non-Christians reading it... I don't see an issue. I'd think it'd be nice for people who don't know Christ to see that we take our faith a little more seriously than Baskin-Robins.


As far as the topic:

I accepted Christ at 2nd & 4th Baptist Church in Baltimore (dying church of 30 ppl in the heart of the city) when I was 13. I was the first in my family to accept Christ. I was involved but honestly thought the church wasn't worth investing in. Scorcho and I actually have some nearly identical views of the church at large so I figured no local church could make a difference. Even so, I led my church to get involved youth-wise in various events around town. Tried to change it from the inside.


At 18 I went to LU and was invited to work at a camp put on by TRBC. I ended up at TRBC for my time at LU. (while going to campus church and various churches with friends in the evenings). TRBC was my home church and I served non-stop in children's ministry and middle school ministry for my duration. At TRBC I learned that one church could change a city and/or world.

During my Jr. year I did an internship with a church in Corpus Christi, TX (near Sly's dad) and the following year I was invited to help start a new church down there. I was there for a few years serving as YP. My wife and I wanted to come back to the East Coast where our family is (MD and Lynchburg) (and there were Senior Pastor's moral issues that got dealt with after I left. At the time I could not serve under his spiritual authority b/c I felt he had lost that authority biblically. My move nudged people to ask what was up. I honored him even upon my departure but once questions started to be asked, his sin was brought out and he resigned.) so I came to Chesapeake, VA as a YP to a church start. After a few years I was invited to start a church in our area and now I serve as Lead Pastor. In January we took on the Corpus Christi, TX church as a satellite campus so now I'm responsible for both campuses along with our staff.


I explained to Scorcho in a PM that my passion comes from my experience on this side of the ministry fence. Every church would be 1000 times better if Christ-followers would jump in and make it happen. This week I taught from Nehemiah 3:1-12. It's a list of construction crews but among that list there is so much to learn. My basic points were these:

1. Make your motivation a passion for God’s glory. (that's the only motivation that will keep you focused) v1-2
2. If you're in need of repair, help repair someone else. (b/c You're liable to find your healing in your helping) v3-5
3. God wants your Availability… he’ll work on your abilities. (we can all do something to spread the gospel) v6-12

So obviously this is a topic I've been digging in a LOT lately so I'm sure my passion spilled over.

[FlameNForest]

I've attended TRBC for over 30 years, since the 70's when my family first moved to Lynchburg. It is obviously big, but if people want to be involved there are many, many opportunities to do so.