[TallyW]

Tally - lets go back to the basics -

1. Romney has a chance to become the next President of this country..
2. Considering the point of the commencement address is NOT to deliver a spiritual message..
3. Why not use this speech as a platform to gain nationwide recognition for this university?

1. Good for him. We now know that a weak GOP field, 6 years of steady campaigning, a ton of personal wealth and 10-to-1 bent toward negative ads can get you an election.

2. The point of commencement is both a final word from your institution on the completion of an enormous milestone as well as a first word on the 'commencement' of your life forward.

Mitt Romney has actively given his entire life to deceiving people to follow a false god. He has actively given his entire life toward calling every Christian in that stadium "apostates". He should not be invited by an evangelical university to speak anything to our students. He is coming to LU solely because he needs what LU has... which is credibility in the evangelical community. We should steward that credibility better.

3. I don't get this argument at all. Liberty is growing faster than ever and the online program is over 80,000 enrolled if I have my numbers right... we did not "need" this visit.

Lets say your right and this is all about eyeballs in the paper and television... so we've compromised for eyeballs... but who are we appealing to? If our goal is to bring in evangelical Christians who genuinely would align with our stated message, how does having a Mormon give our commencement reinforce our goals of 'Training Champions for Christ'. All it says is that we will sell out for TV time and we will sit and let a man lecture us who has spent his life saying that our savior is not real. How exactly is that a positive image for our university?

Do you think the liberals will love us more? Of course not. They hate Romney for different reasons. I honestly can't think of a single 'type' of potential student who would see this as impressive. Romney is not connecting with evangelicals... That's why he needs us. WE HAVE THAT ALREADY. If he is not connecting with the evangelical families around the country, how is bringing him here all of a sudden good for us? It's not.


FOOD FOR THOUGHT about this theory that Romney is so good for us...

The former Massachusetts governor won Delaware with 56 percent of the vote and Pennsylvania with 58 percent. According to University of Minnesota political scientist Eric Ostermeier, that marks the first time that a presumptive GOP nominee has failed to reach the 60 percent mark in a contest conducted after his last major challenger exited the race.

source: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/dela ... 15786.html

[TallyW]

So is it your opinion that anyone who actively works against our interests, does not deserve our time or attention? I mean there are a lot of people out there that have actively worked against the "interests" of Christians and they later turned away from their evil ways. C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, etc. Many of the best apologists for our faith, started out as the greatest detractors. I can't think of any better example than Saul who then coverted and his name was changed to Paul.

If Mitt Romney repents and becomes a Christian, I'll mark this post relevant.

[TallyW]

And again, still looking for examples of Mitts dastardly deeds in knowingly thwarting Christianity. Could it be donating his inheritance? Serving as a missionary? Running a program to help unwed pregnant women? Giving vast amounts of money to charity? Sure, they are all Mormon affiliated but that makes them neither evil nor immoral.

If I am to believe the bible, his entire life is lived in rebellion toward God. Additionally, the way in which he's chosen to live his rebellous life is completely evil and immoral if both evil and morality are defined in relation to our complete submission to Jesus Christ as Lord and not a 'more compassionate and understanding' soul like yourself.

What part of Mitt Romney's living as a blatant enemy of the cross of Christ is not contradictory to the teachings of our university? His entire faith-walk has stood in opposition to everything we say we care about.

[matshark]

My issues with Romney being the Commencement speaker can be summed up in short as this:

The Commencement speaker is supposed to represent who and what the students are supposed to be as well as an example of what the university is supposed to embody. Romney is not that. Not only is he not a christian, but he actively worked against the very things that Jerry spent so many years of his life fighting for and creating Liberty to fight for. It would be one thing if he were a convo speaker, but to invite him here to be the Commencement speaker is quite frankly wrong. It's an affront to the legacy of the University and Jerry's life. For it to be a cheap political stunt by a member of the Board of Trustees who has personal business interests in showing Romney as accepted by "evangelicals" (albeit by pandering) as a Sr. Campaign Advisor to Romney further adds insult to the legacy of the University.

Personally, I think it's a travesty, it's an embarrassment, it's an affront to everything that the university was founded as, everything that Jerry lived for and lived with constant danger from as a result and I personally would like to see Mark Demoss removed as a member of the Board of Trustees. I believe he's betrayed that trust and sold it out for personal political gain and I believe that to be worthy of dismissal.

[matshark]

Mitt Romney has actively given his entire life to deceiving people to follow a false god. He has actively given his entire life toward calling every Christian in that stadium "apostates". He should not be invited by an evangelical university to speak anything to our students. He is coming to LU solely because he needs what LU has... which is credibility in the evangelical community. We should steward that credibility better.

THIS.

[Kricket]

I don't think this has been posted yet, but I just got this email from the chancellor, and I'm sure many of you have as well:

Dear Robert,

My office has received hundreds of messages from students and 2012 graduates who are thrilled and honored that the presumptive Republican nominee for president of the United States will be our Commencement speaker. Some graduates have also inquired about Liberty’s policies regarding the doctrinal beliefs of graduation speakers. These same questions seem to surface every spring and I am writing you in response to those inquiries.

First of all, it is important to remember that Liberty actually has two Commencement speakers each year. Long ago, most universities ceased their practice of including a Baccalaureate service during their Commencement weekend, but we have insisted on keeping this service as a demonstration of our Christian commitment to the Great Commission and the Great Commandment.

This year our Baccalaureate speaker is Luis Palau. Dr. Palau is an evangelist who has preached the Gospel to a billion people. Palau is often considered second only to Billy Graham in his influence for the Gospel, and, as is our tradition, he will be clearly delivering the Gospel at Baccalaureate.

For twenty-five years Liberty has traditionally had leaders from the worlds of politics, business, and entertainment speak during the Commencement ceremony on Saturday. Most of these leaders have not traditionally shared Liberty’s doctrinal convictions. In the last few years, our Commencement speakers have included an evangelical filmmaker (Randall Wallace), a Mormon commentator (Glenn Beck), a Jewish economist (Ben Stein), an evangelical actor and athlete (Chuck Norris), an evangelical - now Catholic - politician (Newt Gingrich), a Catholic commentator (Sean Hannity), a Southern Baptist senator (John McCain), and an Episcopalian chief of staff to President Bush (Karl Rove). In all, at least 20 of Liberty's 38 Commencement speakers have fit in this category.

My father's vision for Liberty University was both a theological and a cultural vision. Theologically, it was to found the world's preeminent Christian university where every faculty member professed faith in Jesus Christ, agreed with our doctrinal statement, and sought to fulfill the Great Commission and live the Great Commandment. Culturally, it was to found a university that held in high regard our nation's founding principles of limited government, the free enterprise system, and individual liberty. Liberty's tradition has been to focus on the first part of this vision during the Friday night ceremony and the second part on Saturday morning.

Liberty's commitment to an annual Baccalaureate service has ensured that we have never held a Commencement that did not include a strong gospel message from an evangelical leader.

I am sure that members of the Liberty University community will treat Gov. Romney with the respect he deserves, regardless of whether they agree with his religious or political beliefs.

When my father traveled the nation speaking at many secular universities, he was often met with boos and hisses by those who held different theological beliefs than he. I am so proud that Liberty students have gained a reputation for treating those whose beliefs are different than their own in a Christ-like manner. They have shown respect to speakers as divergent from Liberty's worldview as Ted Kennedy, Bob Beckel, and Tim Kaine.

Gov. Romney is a man who has excelled in business, governed a state, and even managed the Olympic games. He has been faithfully married to his wife, Ann, for 43 years, and they have 5 sons and 16 grandchildren. Gov. Romney is a leader of global significance, who might eventually be the leader of the free world, and we are honored that he accepted our invitation.

An invitation to speak at Commencement is not an ad-hoc endorsement of a presidential candidate or even of that particular speaker’s religious or political views. The ultimate purpose of having a prominent Commencement speaker is not to promote the speaker or his views but rather to inspire and challenge the graduates and showcase Liberty and its mission.

My prayer is that having the presumptive Republican nominee as our speaker will cause many who have never heard of Liberty to take notice of what Liberty is doing to train a generation of Champions for Christ. Perhaps, many of them will consider a Christian education over the secular alternative.

Sincerely,


Jerry Falwell, Jr.
Chancellor and President

[Purple Haize]

And again, still looking for examples of Mitts dastardly deeds in knowingly thwarting Christianity. Could it be donating his inheritance? Serving as a missionary? Running a program to help unwed pregnant women? Giving vast amounts of money to charity? Sure, they are all Mormon affiliated but that makes them neither evil nor immoral.

If I am to believe the bible, his entire life is lived in rebellion toward God. Additionally, the way in which he's chosen to live his rebellous life is completely evil and immoral if both evil and morality are defined in relation to our complete submission to Jesus Christ as Lord and not a 'more compassionate and understanding' soul like yourself.

What part of Mitt Romney's living as a blatant enemy of the cross of Christ is not contradictory to the teachings of our university? His entire faith-walk has stood in opposition to everything we say we care about.

Since this can be said about ANY unbeliever are you advocating for only SBC Doctorinaly pure speakers? If so, fine. I don't agree but understand
It is possible to be Moral and a non Christian. For instance, if you feed the hungry, cloth the poor and help the downtrodden and destitute you are acting in a Moral manner. Abstaining from vice and being a faithful husband and father is moral. We all know a slew of people who are very moral but not a Christian. In my experiences with oodles of Mormons I have found them to be very moral people. People who I would in no way call evil. Misguided sure, but not evil. And believe you me, I have had run ins with my fair share of evil people.

[matshark]

I don't think this has been posted yet, but I just got this email from the chancellor, and I'm sure many of you have as well:

Dear Robert,

My office has received hundreds of messages from students and 2012 graduates who are thrilled and honored that the presumptive Republican nominee for president of the United States will be our Commencement speaker.

Yeah, they just delete the rest and pretend they don't exist... like the entire Facebook thread.

Abstaining from vice and being a faithful husband and father is moral. We all know a slew of people who are very moral but not a Christian.

Which morality are you speaking of... the part where he said he'd allow abortion to continue unfettered in MA as Governor, the part where he said he'd allow judges to grant permission for underage girls to get abortions if their parents wouldn't give that consent or the part where he advocated for homosexuals to be allowed into the boyscouts, contrary to the wishes of the private organization (and id imagine every parent in the organization)?

[LUconn]

The Commencement speaker is supposed to represent who and what the students are supposed to be as well as an example of what the university is supposed to embody.

This may be your opinion of what it should be, but in reality that's not what it is.

[TallyW]

Since this can be said about ANY unbeliever are you advocating for only SBC Doctorinaly pure speakers? If so, fine. I don't agree but understand
It is possible to be Moral and a non Christian. For instance, if you feed the hungry, cloth the poor and help the downtrodden and destitute you are acting in a Moral manner. Abstaining from vice and being a faithful husband and father is moral. We all know a slew of people who are very moral but not a Christian. In my experiences with oodles of Mormons I have found them to be very moral people. People who I would in no way call evil. Misguided sure, but not evil. And believe you me, I have had run ins with my fair share of evil people.

I don't dislike Mormons as people. They are people made in the image of God. That however is not our standard for association and promotion. They are people made in God's image who are rebellious and defiant toward Him to the point where they are publicly and actively working to replace Christ as we know Him. Our way would be that the entire world knew Jesus as Lord and Savior (in a monotheistic sense). Their way fulfilled would mean none of us would be 'apostate' any more and we'd bow the knee to Morani's golden serving dishes.

Those who are so excited to be 'honored' with the 'blessing' of having a Presidential candidate here are missing the mark. Not every man is the same. Simply because he's now the 'presumptive nominee' does not make him a better representation for our students.

Please understand, this speech benefits Mitt Romney far more than it benefits Liberty University or the evangelical community. Look at how excited Mark DeMoss is to get Romney in front of this many people. They view it as bridging a gap with evangelicals and giving Romney a big crowd to practice for Tampa.

The anticipated audience of at least 34,000 graduates and guests “will be the largest crowd he will speak to in the entire campaign until he accepts the party’s nomination inTampa,” said Mark DeMoss, an LU board member and a senior adviser in the Romney campaign.

source:http://www2.nelsoncountytimes.com/news/ ... r-1854148/

As to your question of their 'moral' works...lets keep one thing very clear. There is no altruism here. They deny Christ's sufficiency in the process of salvation and therefore rely on works as much as grace. Their kindness and obedience is under the threat of hell. Another aspect that is not Christian.

Secondly, just as Christians go into areas to do good for the sake of sharing the gospel... Mormons do this good for the sake of their false god.

I have a question:
Is evil only evil if it's mean spirited evil?

I believe that evil is evil even if it's wrapped in a shiny water-for-the-thirsty bow. That's precisely why we have to be on guard against deception. Deception isn't blatant evil. Deception is evil disguised as good. A good thing without God becomes another form of rebellion and evil.

It is Christ that makes things good. It is Christ that created everything for his glory John 1:1-5. If we really believe that this entire world is headed for an eternity separated from our Father in Heaven unless they repent and trust Christ as Lord and Savior... it does matter that we're hosting a man who is actively trying to push people the other direction. As we throw out the life boat of rescue, Mitt Romney rides around trying to cut our line. The consequences are eternal for a lot of people... it's not just a matter of differing opinions.

[SuperJon]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. All non-believers, in their own way, are attacking Christ.

"He that is not with Me, is against Me"

That's an easy thing to think, and on the surface it's correct. However, there are specific instructions and descriptions of false teachers. The Bible calls them wolves in sheep's clothing. It's also very specific that we should avoid false teachers. Look at 2 Peter 2 or the book of Jude. Look at 1 Timothy 1 and 6. False teachers are scattered all through the New Testament. Romans 16:17-18 is about as clear as it gets when it comes to false teachers.

[logic]

TallyW



I simply do not see what is wrong with Christians voting for Romney , regardless of spiritual beliefs. Why do Christians always feel the need to base voting soley off of spiritual matters? Choose the candidate whose policies you feel more closely aligned, then vote. Why does religion need to be involved?

There are a lot of Christians out there who will not vote for Romney because he is a Mormon and that is a shame. Why can't people separate LDS from policy?

And again...I'll say it again, regardless of how anyone feels about it, splitting the conservative base between Ron Paul Libertarians and traditional GOP candidates is exactly what the left wants, and a vote for anyone other than Romney is in fact a vote for Obama. You think Romney is bad? I can tell you the far left is much, much more dangerous than Mitt Romney could/can/will ever be!!!

Look I'm a Ron Paul guy...Campaign for Liberty member..I support Ron Paul 100%...but until we can grow a true grassroots effort and start with Libertarians winning smaller elections, someone like Ron Paul actually having a chance of winning is a pipe dream at best.

Four more years of a recharged far left regime will be catastrophic for this nation. Come November I will be proud to say I fought back by choosing the only person who could defeat Obama and it is NOT Ron Paul...I learned from my mistake in '08!

Lesser of two evils....Is a big government Republican what we want? No..would Romney be better than four more years of a brazen Obama? Absolutely.

[jcmanson]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. All non-believers, in their own way, are attacking Christ.

"He that is not with Me, is against Me"

That's an easy thing to think, and on the surface it's correct. However, there are specific instructions and descriptions of false teachers. The Bible calls them wolves in sheep's clothing. It's also very specific that we should avoid false teachers. Look at 2 Peter 2 or the book of Jude. Look at 1 Timothy 1 and 6. False teachers are scattered all through the New Testament. Romans 16:17-18 is about as clear as it gets when it comes to false teachers.

Good point. Is Romney coming here to "teach" or "preach"? Or will he call himself one of "us"? Or refer to "our God"? I guess we'll see.

[LUconn]

I wonder what he'd do if whoever was speaking before him gave us a "LDS vs Chirstianity 101" summary.

[SuperJon]

That's an easy thing to think, and on the surface it's correct. However, there are specific instructions and descriptions of false teachers. The Bible calls them wolves in sheep's clothing. It's also very specific that we should avoid false teachers. Look at 2 Peter 2 or the book of Jude. Look at 1 Timothy 1 and 6. False teachers are scattered all through the New Testament. Romans 16:17-18 is about as clear as it gets when it comes to false teachers.

Good point. Is Romney coming here to "teach" or "preach"? Or will he call himself one of "us"? Or refer to "our God"? I guess we'll see.

I think the teaching vs preaching thing is a little irrelevant in this situation. His life and actions have shown that he is a teacher of the Mormon faith. That, by nature, makes him a false teacher even if he doesn't mention it in his speech.

[jcmanson]

I think the teaching vs preaching thing is a little irrelevant in this situation.

And therein lies the grey area.

[Purple Haize]

TALLY
I believe that evil is evil even if it's wrapped in a shiny water-for-the-thirsty bow. That's precisely why we have to be on guard against deception. Deception isn't blatant evil. Deception is evil disguised as good. A good thing without God becomes another form of rebellion and evil.

That is a pretty broad definition of evil. I see the acts of Mormons as neither a Moral Evil or a Natural evil. Being misguided is not evil. You take Mormonism to the extreme but EVERYONE knows that is not going to happen. We will not be required to bow to Moroni and live in Deserete. Because of this I don't see why voting for Romney as POTUS is a non Christian thing to do. If we were talking about a position of SPIRITUAL leadership as opposed to POLITICAL leadership, I'd be right there with you. I see how this speech is helpful politically and have no objection because he is being invited because he is a successful individual running for POLITICAL office. I see this as an invite to a Presidential candidate who happens to be Mormon, not as a Mormon who happens to be running for President. I believe this is where we differ.

[Purple Haize]

That's an easy thing to think, and on the surface it's correct. However, there are specific instructions and descriptions of false teachers. The Bible calls them wolves in sheep's clothing. It's also very specific that we should avoid false teachers. Look at 2 Peter 2 or the book of Jude. Look at 1 Timothy 1 and 6. False teachers are scattered all through the New Testament. Romans 16:17-18 is about as clear as it gets when it comes to false teachers.

Good point. Is Romney coming here to "teach" or "preach"? Or will he call himself one of "us"? Or refer to "our God"? I guess we'll see.

I think the teaching vs preaching thing is a little irrelevant in this situation. His life and actions have shown that he is a teacher of the Mormon faith. That, by nature, makes him a false teacher even if he doesn't mention it in his speech.

Would you apply that same standard to Rabbi's and Priests?

[jcmanson]

I see this as an invite to a Presidential candidate who happens to be Mormon, not as a Mormon who happens to be running for President.

Another good point

[Purple Haize]

I see this as an invite to a Presidential candidate who happens to be Mormon, not as a Mormon who happens to be running for President.

Another good point

There goes your reputation!

[jcmanson]

I see this as an invite to a Presidential candidate who happens to be Mormon, not as a Mormon who happens to be running for President.

Another good point

There goes your reputation!

"If you don't want to be criticized it's simple —don’t say anything, don't do anything, and don't have anything."

[TallyW]

I see this as an invite to a Presidential candidate who happens to be Mormon, not as a Mormon who happens to be running for President.

Another good point

These may be the singular most absurd pair of statements that I have ever read.

That is the opposite of a good point. That is pure lunacy.

A man's faith (if it be more than a nominal talking point in his life) DEFINES him. A person's faith is the very center of their being. An active adherent to a faith system does not identify themselves first by the position they wish to attain and then tell people they "happen" to have faith.

Are people mechanics who "happen to be Christian" or doctors or lawyers who "happen to be Christian"?

Identity comes from our faith and then spills into the vocation we choose. Our vocation doesn't spill over into our faith.

Mitt Romney is a Mormon first and foremost. Just as I am a Christian first and foremost.

I do not know either of you or how you view yourselves but I would sincerely hope you see yourselves first as Christians before any other thing you do. If not, your identity is set up for loss.

Mitt Romney didn't "happen" into his Mormonism any more than I "happened" into my Christianity.

FACTS:
From 1977 to 1994 Mitt Romney served as a lay Pastor in the LDS church. From 1986 to 1994 he was a stake leader which made him essentially the pastor to over 4,000 people. Saying that Mitt Romney is a politician who happens to be Mormon is like calling Mike Huckabee a politician who happens to be a Christian. I doubt Mike Huckabee would appreciate that view of himself and frankly I would hope Mitt Romney would be offended by that statement as well. Politics and political positions come and go but faith remains constant in his life.



Because the lynchpin of your support of this decision seems to center around how you view Romney... who was Mitt Romney for his entire life save 2002-2006 when he served as Governor of Massachusetts?

Was he a student who happened to be Mormon who became a graduate student who happened to be Mormon who became a businessman who happened to be Mormon who would later become a leader of the Salt Lake Olympics who happened to be Mormon who then became a politician who happened to be Mormon who then became an (I don't know what he was from 2008 to 2011 when he wasn't running for anything) who happened to be Mormon?

What is the constant? He is Mormon. That is the man's core. I hope that if you are a Christian you too identify with Christ before any other attribute in your life.

[jcmanson]

If Mitt Romney was a Christian, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.
If Mitt Romney was Jewish, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.
If Mitt Romney was an Atheist, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.
If Mitt Romney was a Hindu, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.
If Mitt Romney was a Buddhist, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.
If Mitt Romney was a Mormon, we’d ask him to be our Commencement speaker because he could be the next POTUS.

Need I go on?

[TallyW]

I believe you get credit for the most obvious point of the day.

The rest of us are having a discussion as to whether or not that standard is helpful to our Evangelical Christian mission. Is being a nominee all it takes even if you've spent your life bashing our savior?

Thank you however for your tremendously well thought out insight.

[jcmanson]

I believe you get credit for the most obvious point of the day.

The rest of us are having a discussion as to whether or not that standard is helpful to our Evangelical Christian mission. Is being a nominee all it takes even if you've spent your life bashing our savior?

Thank you however for your tremendously well thought out insight.

I don't appreciate the back-handed compliments. Thanks though.