[Hold My Own]

I just think there should be one set standard for everyone. here's my question. Why is it OK for Grad students to drink? They reached an age where they are more "accountable"? Well the United States decided that age is 21 so what makes them any different? Why dont they just put that you are to abide by the laws the US has put in place. I just dont understand and hate to see when one group gets treated differently than others.

I just wish we'd out law it for everyone...is this not one of the biggest things that makes us different than the rest? Dont we still want to be different? I dont want this school to slip to a Baylor or something else, and I hope I'm not the only one that can see this being a slippery slope (maybe over many many years...but it's a step)

[El Scorcho]

D). grad students tend to be a little more responsible and/or circumspect about the law and the consequences of their actions than undergrads are.

Actually, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the reason this change even happened was because of the big bust of some law students about a year or so ago. The morons had an enormous amount of pictures of them partying on Facebook, with undergrads. This was not the typical situation of a few "oops" pictures hitting Facebook. This was like looking at a rap video documented in 100 or so pictures.

Hardly responsible.

This is exactly the thing that all of my friends who are alums worry will happen to the undergrad program at LU. Sacrificing rules of character for the sake of recruiting. Dress code is one thing, alcohol is another. If LU goes this route, I'm done with the place.

[JDUB]

i agree HMO. this is one of the things that sets LU aside from the rest, and i think it could become a slippery slope

[LUconn]

I'll supply the torches if anybody wants to take Jerry up on his offer.

[Hold My Own]

I just laugh when someone tries to explain to me that a grad student is more responsible...for the record BEING A GRAD STUDENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AGE! Sure most of your grad students are around the same age but so are your under grad students. Again, I just point back to the "responsible" age the United States believes is and that's 21...maybe we should enlighten the US on some things that only we know


Does this mean that Liberty University employees are now able to drink? If age and responsibility is the leading argument I'd venture to say the average of an employee greatly exceeds the avg age for grad students. That still doenst make it right. EVERYONE is in a position on leadership. The reason they may not want Faculty/Staff to drink is because they are in a leadership position, but everyone is. from that person in law school that's helping out the freshman with classes that's going prelaw to that college Sr helping out the college freshman


ps...there are a lot of donors that give to this school who 100% believe in the rules BJU has and others but give to us b/c we're trying to take it to the next level...believe me, there will be a hit if this continues

[Libertine]

I'm certainly not saying that every grad student is more responsible than every undergrad. However, grad students do tend to be more responsible in general just b/c they have more to lose.

I also don't see the alcohol issue being the "slippery slope" that it's being made out to be. The slippery slope for a Christian school is when you begin to compromise the ethical, moral, theological and, most importantly, Biblical standards that the university is founded on. This ain't that.

[El Scorcho]

I also don't see the alcohol issue being the "slippery slope" that it's being made out to be. The slippery slope for a Christian school is when you begin to compromise the ethical, moral, theological and, most importantly, Biblical standards that the university is founded on. This ain't that.

If you don't see it, then frankly you're just blind. That single rule is the largest part of the Liberty code of conduct that sets us apart from other universities. Once you okay alcohol, you open the door to a whole range of students and people who will view Liberty as (and subsequently make it into) a different kind of place than what the vast majority of us envision it to be. The fact of the matter is that no matter what your personal view on alcohol is when it comes to faith, it is not becoming or wise of a university that prides itself on being distinctly Christian to open this door. And most certainly not one that has donors so conservative as ours.

I have put in for a definitive answer on this question and hope to have something to report here very soon.

[Hold My Own]

Lib, if you dont see it as a problem ethically, morally etc then that's fine. But in the baptist world thats the minority. Personally I dont see anything wrong with drinking within moderation. I also understand that we have to many people that would abuse it so it's easier to just simply say...dont do it. Thats why I wish it would continue.


there have been discussions about doing away with curfew...these are all steps to get to 25,000 yet lose the foundation you've worked so hard to establish

[thepostman]

wow....I miss a few hours on this thread and I miss this...

I don't know how this has gone so long without being noticed...I certainly knew nothing about this at all.....

I don't think there is anything wrong with this policy, but I do think that they should have to abide by all the rules we undergrad students must abide by....oh well though....I am off campus so if I really wanted to smoke and drink I could do it without anybody ever finding out about it.....I actually smoked up until 3 or 4 months before moving off campus so obviously I smoked while living on campus

anyways....whatever....

[LUconn]

I'm gonna need you to go ahead and turn yourself in.

[Libertine]

Let's be clear: I am not advocating that LU drop its alcohol policy. There are those that don't like it and there are a lot more that do. That's neither here nor there because, either way, it works. At the same time, I do not believe that the alcohol policy is the major thing that sets LU apart from every other school in the country. To me, the differences between us and them run much, much deeper than that. Now, we can argue the moral and Biblical validity of LU's alcohol policy until the cows come home but that's not what I'm arguing here at all.

In my opinion, if the Law School is unilaterally forced to change its existing policies to accomodate each and every policy that Liberty University has on the books, then the very existence of the law school is threatened -- not due to declining enrollment numbers but due to the loss of autonomy. If the Law School is viewed to be just another branch of the university by the LU powers that be, it will also be viewed that way by the accrediting body. I should point out that the Law School has not yet achieved full accreditation and, if it is ever to achieve that, it must be completely autonomous from us.

[LUconn]

not due to declining enrollment numbers

Is that happening or were you just using that as an example of why any school in general would be threatened? Also, that particular policy could be changed without the school being forced. I'm sure they could be persueded.

[Libertine]

not due to declining enrollment numbers

Is that happening or were you just using that as an example of why any school in general would be threatened? Also, that particular policy could be changed without the school being forced. I'm sure they could be persueded.

It's not happening that I know of. I was just using that example -- as you said -- in general, especially since the overriding sentiment around here seems to be that the primary reason that LU is relaxing some standards is for the express purpose of increasing enrollment. I don't hold to that idea either but that's an argument for another day.

And, I agree with you, LUConn. Persuasion for the sake of practicality is one thing; coercion for the sake of rote consistency is quite another.

[El Scorcho]

At the same time, I do not believe that the alcohol policy is the major thing that sets LU apart from every other school in the country.

I said it was the single thing in the code of conduct that sets us apart. I'm speaking from that perspective, rather than an academic or foundational one. If we remove that from our code of conduct, we may as well not bother having one anymore. From the perspective of students, that's the single biggest thing (again, in terms of required conduct) that sets us apart from other schools. I firmly believe that.

As for law school autonomy, they can remain autonomous while still maintaining the same code of conduct that the rest of the university abides by. It's not a problem at Regent, and it certainly wouldn't be a problem here. Academic autonomy and being a part of the university system are not mutually exclusive.

[Libertine]

I see your point, Scorch, and -- again -- I'm not advocating that LU drop its alcohol policy.

As far as law school autonomy goes, I think you're right in principle. The sticking point for me is that there is already an alcohol policy in place for the Law School and one would have to assume that that policy was approved by the powers that be and is what it is for some particular reason. For the University to come in now at this late date and force a change -- to this or any of the Law School's other policies, regardless of what they are -- would, in my mind, be a really bad idea.

[thepostman]

I'm gonna need you to go ahead and turn yourself in.

haha...well considering that was a year and a half ago i think its alright i don't turn myself in...but thanks for your concern....

I also am not saying they should change the policy for the undergrad...but I just do not understand if anything under the LU banner should have exceptions to these rules....

[4everfsu]

I think the Law school should have the same rules as LU, lets see both schools want to glorify Christ, so no one should be allowed to drink period.

Let see, someone goes to LU school of law, starts to drink, becomes an acholic. Well not too bad I guess, we do have Elim home still for them correct.

[jmdickens]

As for law school autonomy, they can remain autonomous while still maintaining the same code of conduct that the rest of the university abides by. It's not a problem at Regent, and it certainly wouldn't be a problem here. Academic autonomy and being a part of the university system are not mutually exclusive.

No offense, but Liberty is trying to build the Law school to a more respected level than Regent

[El Scorcho]

If Regent Law gets no respect, then it's for the same reasons that LU Law will have trouble winning respect. Regent just won the American Bar Association's National Negotiation Competition in February. Last year they won the National Moot Court title.

Disclaimer: I have two friends (both LU grads) who just finished up at Regent Law last year, and have a brand new firm opened in Lynchburg (with a third partner). They have nothing but praise for the education that they received there.

Did you have some experience with Regent Law that leads you to believe they're not worthy of respect?

[jmdickens]

Employers are what look down at Regent....Also, every law school I have been to for visits ask me where else I am applying...I don't mention Regent because I don't plan on going anywhere outside the top hundred unless God changes my heart.....

I also hear that they were close to closing a year ago for financial reasons

[TallyW]

I think the Law school should have the same rules as LU, lets see both schools want to glorify Christ, so no one should be allowed to drink period.

This makes me laugh.

Jesus was accused of being drunk. He wasn't drinking Kool-Aid folks! When he talks about being accused this way did he say "Crap! I'm not glorifying myself!" No... he said "For John the Baptist didn’t spend his time eating bread or drinking wine, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’ The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’ But wisdom is shown to be right by the lives of those who follow it.”"


I see NO problem with a complete ban on the undergraduate level... especially since it's against the law to drink until you're 21 and most undergrad students can't legally drink... so any ban on undergrad honestly only affects our students for a year or less for the most part. I also like the Law School's version b/c it specifically says that if you do something to screw with LU's image (posting 100 pictures of you partying with people who shouldn't be drinking would fit) then you get disciplined or expelled.

As for the discussion about grad students. Another fact is that they make up a much smaller percentage of all of our students on campus. Policing them vs. policing the campus is pretty straight forward... especially those in the law school... they all know each other's shoe size... they're are only a handful of 'em.

Finally... I believe there is a proper view... the one actually written in the bible.

Here's something for the tee-totalers to consider: http://www.marshillchurch.org/content/alcohol

[El Scorcho]

Let's not turn this into a debate over whether or not drinking is something we consider to be matter of personal holiness. That discussion goes nowhere and it won't end well. Instead, let's please keep this focused on whether or not the same code of conduct should apply to all students who attend any part of Liberty University system. If you must, you can discuss whether or not you think the university should allow students of legal age to drink alcohol or not.

Again, let's not turn this into a "Is drinking alcohol a sin?" thread. That's not the topic at hand.

[thepostman]

Regardless your opinions on this its tough to enforce a rule on those undergrad students who are 21 or older that you don't even enforce them on your law students....

I just think its crazy...and it won't take long for this to get around campus now that is has been brought to like...word travels fast on this campus....so it won't take long until this thing gets widespread attention on campus....then the administration will have some explaining to do, unless of course they back peddle like they always seem to do when they are under fire

[ATrain]

Well, students seem to laugh pretty hard when a prayer leader holds a job as a beerguy

[thepostman]

Well, students seem to laugh pretty hard when a prayer leader holds a job as a beerguy

haha, i would laugh hard too...thats funny.....