[truthorconsequences]

http://statsheet.com/mcb/rankings/RPI

[lynchburgwildcats]

and here is the only one that matters:
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1

[michaeleyou]

and here is the only one that matters:
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1

wow, 331st place.

[bradyfan]

Am I the only one who thinks this is completely embarrassing? We have more money for athletic programs than anyone in the BS and we have the worst RPI? I know we dedicate most of our efforts to football, but this has to get better. Maybe I'm just preaching to the choir, I don't know. But I just don't understand how we expect to ever fill 8,000 seats with this type of performance. I'm optimistic about the rest of the season but this has to get better.

[BJWilliams]

Is it frustrating? certainly is...although if you look at the underlying context to much of this season, we have players who at this point are not suited for the increased role that they have, and we are missing players that if they were healthy would have Im sure helped things. Im sure Purple could better elaborate on things but you do have to remember that though this is a frustrating and disappointing season, there is something underlying the context this season has borne out

[Purple Haize]

CJ. Have you not read any other threads on this section? There has been a season long debate about this. You even have a couple of friends in your corner

[bradyfan]

I'd agree. There is just a part of me that believes we're better than this. I don't think our recruiting classes have been great and we can't seem to win close games. I just feel that even with players being hurt and all, we should be better than we our due to the conference we're in. It's just hard to believe that we're playing to our full potential when we can't beat BS teams. There are very few conferences that are worse the Big South, a frustrating season is one thing but this is just horrible. I'll continue to wait it out like everyone else as I know that this is more of a throw away season.

CJ. Have you not read any other threads on this section? There has been a season long debate about this. You even have a couple of friends in your corner

Actually, not really. I've remained quiet about basketball because I knew about the injuries and I've had low expectations for the team. I was going to wait until after the game this afternoon to say anything about it but after seeing Harvard & Murray St ranked, it's hard to stay silent. I also am a little jealous of Presby and Coastal who have huge wins on their record, while we struggled beating a crappy NAIA team.

[Purple Haize]

Well Harvard is in a unique situation and this is the first time they have been ranked since the Millard Fillmore administration. Having a Duke alum at the helm certainly doesn't hurt!

I think your initial impressions about the injuries are correct. I look forward to next year because it is giving players who will be coming off the bench game experience now. So you plug our missing players into the starting line up and then have players with game experience coming off the bench. COULD be a recipe for success.

[bradyfan]

I look forward to next year because it is giving players who will be coming off the bench game experience now. So you plug our missing players into the starting line up and then have players with game experience coming off the bench. COULD be a recipe for success.

+1

[lynchburgwildcats]

Comparing LU to Murray State is comparing apples to oranges. Murray State is a historically good program with 1435 wins, just a tad bit outside the top 50. They have been to the NCAA Tournament 14 times and they have two wins in the tournament, once in 1988 and once in 2010.

Additionally, they came dang close to being the first #16 team to win in the tournament, but they ended up losing by 4 in OT. They came within three points of beating a #2 seed and four points of beating a #3 seed.

They were ranked the 30th best basketball program since the 1984-95 season by ESPN http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493497

Liberty is no where close to the level of a Murray State. Never has been. Sure LU might have be better for a season from time-to-time, but over any prolonged period of time, LU can't touch Murray State.

[Purple Haize]

You speak wisdom Wildcat

[jbock13]

while we struggled beating a crappy NAIA team.

Yeah, let's just forget we dominated them in the 2nd half.

[vicfirth1989]

This whole situation is frustrating to me... We have multiple injuries that have effected the team (as much as saying that we would almost have a flipped record).

Coach surprised me and did a really good job last season, he gained my trust.

But,
I know that the team that Layer wants to play with is injured but is still hurts our image and program reputation to lose like we are. If our football team would have a season like this heads would be rolling everywhere.

I am not saying fire Layer, but he is no saint like others have painting him in the past.

It is very unfortunate for him and the team.... I am not hating just venting a little. I will be at every home game no matter what!

[bradyfan]

while we struggled beating a crappy NAIA team.

Yeah, let's just forget we dominated them in the 2nd half.

I was at that game. With 10 minutes to go, it was still really close. Even if we did dominate them the whole half, it wouldn't matter, they're still an NAIA team.

Comparing LU to Murray State is comparing apples to oranges. Murray State is a historically good program with 1435 wins, just a tad bit outside the top 50. They have been to the NCAA Tournament 14 times and they have two wins in the tournament, once in 1988 and once in 2010.

Additionally, they came dang close to being the first #16 team to win in the tournament, but they ended up losing by 4 in OT. They came within three points of beating a #2 seed and four points of beating a #3 seed.

They were ranked the 30th best basketball program since the 1984-95 season by ESPN http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493497

Liberty is no where close to the level of a Murray State. Never has been. Sure LU might have be better for a season from time-to-time, but over any prolonged period of time, LU can't touch Murray State.

I agree but the point is that, with our money and desire, we should be to the level of a Murray St. or a Wis-Milwakee. The fact that our basketball program has no history outside of Larry Blaire, is pretty embarrassing. I just don't think that it's too much to ask for this team to have a 15 win season this year. So far, we'll be lucky to get a 10 win season.

[Purple Haize]

Umm we have a legacy before Larry Blair.

[bradyfan]

3 total tournament appearances isn't a legacy for where we should be. I think our guys team should be to the level of our girl's team. And that isn't to discredit what the girls have done over the years. We're just in the worst conference next to maybe the MEAC and we can't win the majority of our games.

[jcmanson]

We only have 2 players hurt and one of them won't be back next year. Don't pretend we have "starters" coming to our rescue next year. We will be relying on JUCOs next year

[PAmedic]

incredibly disappointing.

with FB getting straightened out, the eyes of the AD need to focus on hoops

I have no answers but things need to begin to change. All the discussion of "return on investment" applies here as well

[Purple Haize]

We only have 2 players hurt and one of them won't be back next year. Don't pretend we have "starters" coming to our rescue next year. We will be relying on JUCOs next year

Do you know this for sure? Why can't JUCO 's be starters?

[jcmanson]

We only have 2 players hurt and one of them won't be back next year. Don't pretend we have "starters" coming to our rescue next year. We will be relying on JUCOs next year

Do you know this for sure? Why can't JUCO 's be starters?

I didnt mean it that way. 2 of those JUCOs likely will be starting. I meant our 2 injured players won't be starting next year.

[Chris Lang]

I truly think it would be patently unfair to judge Layer on this season ... not just because of the injuries but because of when they came. Add to the fact that I think this league is better than it has been than at any other time that I've been on the beat, and it was just an awful year for LU to try to rebuild on the fly. This is probably Asheville's best team in the last six or seven years. Coastal is really talented. I can't remember seeing a CSU team this athletic. Campbell is really deep and talented. Gardner-Webb and Winthrop are starting to figure it out. I know the RPI numbers say one thing, but those years that the RPI has been high for the conference, it's been on the back of one or two really strong teams. There are six or seven teams that are just going to be really tough outs this year.

That said, what happened yesterday in Asheville was an embarrassment, and everyone in that locker room knows it. I hate to pick on Vander Pol, but that sequence in the first half where he got completely outhustled twice on the same possession for a rebound sticks out at me. The three young bigs are really having a tough time picking up the defensive concepts, and that's translating into the games. There are players who are playing decent possessions of one-on-one defense, but very few players are playing solid team defense. And when that happens, you get what you got yesterday, which is lots of backdoor looks at the basket, transition baskets and uncontested 3s.

I'm really curious to see what happens Tuesday in Lexington, because I've got to think yesterday was rock bottom. Yesterday was the first time that anyone blew the doors off Liberty in a league game. We shall see.

[Purple Haize]

We only have 2 players hurt and one of them won't be back next year. Don't pretend we have "starters" coming to our rescue next year. We will be relying on JUCOs next year

Do you know this for sure? Why can't JUCO 's be starters?

I didnt mean it that way. 2 of those JUCOs likely will be starting. I meant our 2 injured players won't be starting next year.

That's find. But here is how I'm looking at it. Let's say our one injured player comes backhands tarts. Then the 2 JUCOS start. That gives us 3 players coming off the bench next year that have game experience. Not too shabby when our bench player will have experience over other teams bench. Where as this year we have our not quite ready for prime time players starting and then our developmental players squaring off against other teams not quite ready for prime time players.
Plus I like Layers quotes about Manning up. It's true. It's the difference this year between being competitive, which we are, and maybe sneaking some upsets and getting blown out like yesterday.

[lynchburgwildcats]

Comparing LU to Murray State is comparing apples to oranges. Murray State is a historically good program with 1435 wins, just a tad bit outside the top 50. They have been to the NCAA Tournament 14 times and they have two wins in the tournament, once in 1988 and once in 2010.

Additionally, they came dang close to being the first #16 team to win in the tournament, but they ended up losing by 4 in OT. They came within three points of beating a #2 seed and four points of beating a #3 seed.

They were ranked the 30th best basketball program since the 1984-95 season by ESPN http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493497

Liberty is no where close to the level of a Murray State. Never has been. Sure LU might have be better for a season from time-to-time, but over any prolonged period of time, LU can't touch Murray State.

I agree but the point is that, with our money and desire, we should be to the level of a Murray St. or a Wis-Milwakee. The fact that our basketball program has no history outside of Larry Blaire, is pretty embarrassing. I just don't think that it's too much to ask for this team to have a 15 win season this year. So far, we'll be lucky to get a 10 win season.

Spending more money doesn't equate to winning. If it did, Northwestern would be a giant and Ohio State (ranked 54th) would be struggling to make the NCAA Tournament many years. Butler at 98 would have never even made it out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament if they ever even made it.

Money doesn't make a team win games. Money doesn't make a school hire good coaches. Money doesn't make coaches bring in high quality recruits. Blaming lack of success on money is simply a cop out to avoid having to grasp the reality there are organizational failures that are preventing a team from being consistently successful and relevant.

Based on 2010, budgets, here are the top 100 rankings for highest expenses per basketball program and other notables who spend a lot and haven't exactly had much of anything to show for it recently
1) Duke - 12,286,475
2) Kentucky - 11,573,283
3) Kansas - 10,048,801
4) Northwestern - 10,048,801 - Never have even been to the NCAA Tournament!!!
5) Oklahoma State - 9,447,405
6) Louisville - 9,089,769
7) Texas - 8,887,250
Michigan State - 8,250,450
9) Marquette - 8,185,030
10) Syracuse - 8,086,376
***************************
107) Liberty - 2,586,974
206) Radford - 1,307,569 - the next highest Big South school. LU's basketball expenses are 97.8% more than the next best Big South team.

Notables in the top 106 with little to nothing to show for it recently
16) Virginia - 7,390,325
17) Auburn - 7,234,,287
23) DePaul - 6,528,661
29) Seton Hall - 6,215,923
38) Minnesota - 5,692,149
43) Iowa - 5,243,813
51) Virginia Tech - 4,790,553
52) Providence - 4,696,862
56) Iowa State - 4,530,329
57) Georgia - 4,509,622
58) Rutgers - 4,495,147
61) Rice - 4,224,798
64) LSU - 4,195,336
65) TCU - 4,181,429
66) Penn State - 4,147,124
67) Nebraska - 4,104,289
69) South Carolina - 4,023,386
71) Colorado - 3,811,877
75) Oregon State - 3,675,571
78) St. Louis - 3,452,238
81) UTEP - 3,407,917
84) South Florida - 3,215,424
88) NC State - 3,104,152
89) Fordham - 3,059,208
91) Tulsa - 2,969,935
92) Bradley - 2,937,206
94) Southern Methodist - 2,882,888
101) Marshall - 2,748,590
105) Detroit - 2,676,678

Notable teams 108 or lower but generally win or at least have won recently
295) Harvard - 787,352
288) Princeton - 814,545
245) Penn - 1,084,700
242) Morehead State - 1,102,582
210) Vermont - 1,289,896
192) William & Mary - 1,363,298
184) Oakland - 1,392,896
175) Charleston - 1,475,492
172) Davidson - 1,498,751
170) Murray State - 1,513,316
160) Bucknell - 1,594,981
158) Valparaiso - 1,604,343
157) Kent State - 1,626,867
156) Belmont - 1,631,278
155) Santa Clara - 1,655,920
148) Nevada - 1,757,805
144) Missouri State - 1,872,907
135) Western Kentucky - 1,965,315
133) Northern Iowa - 1,973,250
132) James Madison - 1,985,836
123) George Mason - 2,126,409
122) Saint Mary's - 2,130,703
113) Virginia Commonwealth - 2,324,111
110) Old Dominion - 2,354,505
109) San Diego - 2,425,505
108) New Mexico State - 2,514,833

It's time for you to accept the fact that money isn't the issue at LU and throwing more money at the team isn't going to solve it. There are organizational failures (and this year injuries don't help any) at work here and LU won't win consistently until that is fixed.

[Stevev]

Those are some unbelievable numbers there. We spend more than VCU, JMU, GMU, and ODU. This ranking is particular embarrasing due to all the talk lately about moving into a 1A conference for football and that will probably mean that basketball will go along with everyone else into a more competitive conference. I am thinking Sunbelt, Conference USA, or MAC. If we can't win in the BSC how competitive would we be in those conferences. I would hate to put it all on Layer but he is in his 3rd year and even with the injuries it seemed as if last year's successes was all on 3 players and now that 2 of 3 are gone some others have not stepped it up. Seems to be a recruiting problem to me. I don't believe we have had such a poor ranking since the "Hanky" era. I just hope that the athletic administration does the right thing after this season is over.

[PAmedic]

I truly think it would be patently unfair to judge Layer on this season ... not just because of the injuries but because of when they came. Add to the fact that I think this league is better than it has been than at any other time that I've been on the beat, and it was just an awful year for LU to try to rebuild on the fly...

That said, what happened yesterday in Asheville was an embarrassment, and everyone in that locker room knows it...

I'm really curious to see what happens Tuesday in Lexington, because I've got to think yesterday was rock bottom. Yesterday was the first time that anyone blew the doors off Liberty in a league game. We shall see.

appreciate the insight. Obviously I have no answers, but I hope someone does.
the points made about spending are obviously dead on- we don't lack committment from the AD.

no real good way to pose this question, but: I wonder if the real issue is that the top recruits aint buying what we are selling? Not stereotyping kids, but if you are a top flight prospect, I think our rep may REALLY hurt in this particular sport.

and when you only get a dozen kids out there, its not like you can hide 5 or 6 weak links.
we always talk up the homeschoolers that got passed on by everyone else- and look where it gets us. "yeah, he looks like a liberty kid".

we just seem to lack talent and I dont know how to fix that.

ready for my beating now tho