Our Christian foundation is what makes our university unique. This is the place to bring prayer requests, discuss theological issues and how to become better Champions for Christ.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By graceandknowledge
Registration Days Posts
#343512
Thoughts on Rob Bell?

The Blood-Drained Gospel of Rob Bell
http://www.russellmoore.com/2011/03/15/ ... -rob-bell/

Much has been made, and rightly so, in recent days about popular preacher Rob Bell’s denial of the Christian doctrine of hell in his new book Love Wins. Reading this book over the past couple of days, I was prepared for what Bell was up to. I’d seen his promotional video, for one thing. For another, his arguments are the same efforts at hell-denial Christianity has seen, and rebutted, in almost every generation from the first century onward. What caused me to gasp out loud though was Bell’s dismissal of the blood of Jesus.

“There’s nothing wrong with talking and singing about how the ‘Blood will never lose its power’ and ‘Nothing but the blood will save us,’” Bell writes. “Those are powerful metaphors. But we don’t live any longer in a culture in which people offer animal sacrifices to the gods.

“People did live that way for thousands of years, and there are pockets of primitive cultures around the world that do continue to understand sin, guilt, and atonement in those ways,” he continues. “But most of us don’t. What the first Christians did was look around them and put the Jesus story in language their listeners would understand.”

On this point, Bell couldn’t be more wrong.

First of all, he’s wrong about the place of blood in the biblical story. God is not using blood atonement as a “metaphor,” picking up on already existing pagan practices. God’s emphasis on blood in the Bible is prehistoric. Abel’s offering is received, and Cain’s rejected, precisely because of blood (Gen. 4). Immediately after walking off of the ark into a new creation, the patriarch Noah is commanded not to eat blood, since it is “the life of the flesh” (Gen. 9:4).

God then commands an entire system of blood sacrifice, to his people who were to remain separate and distinct from the pagan nations around them, a bloody system he fulfills in the shedding of the blood of Jesus himself (Heb. 8-10). Again, the people of God were not to eat blood since the blood is “the life” of the animal, and is to be handled reverently because of its place in atonement. This prohibition is no mere metaphor of Israelite ceremony. It is repeated in the Jerusalem Council’s instruction to Gentile believers as an “essential” (along with abstaining from sexual immorality) of Christian practice (Acts 15:28-29).

All of this points, of course, to a new covenant, offered up by Christ Jesus, through the shedding of blood (I would cite Scriptures here, but the sheer number of them would overcome my word count). All of the Bible points to a bloody Passover Lamb who approaches the heavenly places with blood, not of goats and calves but his own (Heb. 9:12). The gospel is all about blood.

If God were accommodating himself to a cultural understanding, he certainly did a poor job of it. Yes, the ancient people of Judea and Galilee were familiar with the shedding of animal blood, but that’s precisely why they were so offended by Jesus. They heard Jesus call for the tearing down of the Temple (and with it the blood sacrificial system). Even worse, they heard Jesus call for the eating and drinking of his own blood.

Let’s not lose sight of the scandalous nature of Jesus’ call to the crowds at Galilee: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (Jn. 6:53). This was not to just a generic mob but to those trained from childhood not to eat even the blood of meat, much less the blood of a human being. This is why even Peter is offended, and would walk away, except that he has nowhere else to go.

Bell is also wrong about contemporary culture. He assumes modern people are beyond this association between blood and judgment. And he’s not alone. Our churches often want to appeal to our neighbors by being as antiseptic as possible: with gleaming restrooms and shiny foyers. Christianity seems clean and bright.

And yet, the people around us are obsessed with blood, from our cholesterol checks to our pharmaceutical advertisements to our cultural fascination with vampires that runs the gamut from movies to romance novels. Our culture is fascinated, and yet repulsed, by blood. That’s why the flickering image of blood running down a shower drain is the scariest scene in Alfred Hitchcock’s Psycho. That’s why highway patrolmen seek urgently to clean blood from the scene of a highway accident. All around us, people know, instinctively and intuitively, that the sight of blood means something bad.

And that’s where the scandal of Bell’s revision of hell and the scandal of Bell’s diminishing of blood language come together. Blood means judgment. When the Holy One of Israel wishes to remind Pharaoh that he is a man and not a god, he turns the king’s life-giving Nile River into blood (Ex. 7:17-25). The Apostle John sees the same judgment on a self-worshiping humanity. The waters they need for life turn to blood (Rev. 8:8).

By removing the blood language, the language of sacrifice, we remove what it means to sing with the redeemed of all of the ages, “for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9). If you remove the blood from the doorposts of Egypt, all that’s left is judgment. The same thing happens when you remove the blood from the gospel.

Jesus offends us with our own blood, reminding us that what runs through our veins will one day run cold. He tells us then that in order to live, we must be united to the life-blood of another, a blood spilled for rebels like us. Jesus’ blood speaks a better word than Abel’s. It tells us precisely what Bell would like us to ignore: God is just and judgment is sure.

The people around us already believe in hell, and not because they’ve heard a guilt-inducing message from the church. They may deny it consciously; everyone does, at first. But the Scripture tells us that, apart from Christ, we are all in captivity to the devil who holds us in bondage “through fear of death” (Heb. 2:15). How does anyone get free of this? It’s only by countering the accusations of Satan, and that can only happen, if there’s a just God, if there is a judgment. In Christ, we’ve already been to hell. In Christ, the devil’s indictments are answered. We have conquered him “by the blood of the Lamb” (Rev. 12:10).

That’s why every church that has embraced universalism had died out, withering away from the gospel. In order for people to see Christ, they must see sin and, yes, judgment. In order to see justification, you must also see justice. If you drain the blood out of the church, all you are left with is a corpse.
By 4everfsu
Registration Days Posts
#343514
Rob Bell is a heretic
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#343515
Not very smart and terribly unprepared.



Also, has the guy ever had an original thought in his life? None of this is groundbreaking stuff. So add to the list, unoriginal and stale.
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By Kolzilla41
Registration Days Posts
#343526
What a great video. Bashir makes Bell look really nervous and talk in circles.
By Liberty Rules
Registration Days Posts
#343561
When I heard this it sounded like some politician speaking rather than a Pastor. There are real people who are hurting in this world and they need clear answers on subjects that are so evident in the Gospel such as Heaven and Hell. A loving clearly gives spells it out so that we can have the faith of a child.

This is nothing more than theological liberalism, with some anti fundamentalism thrown in there, along with age old arguments that Baptists are not intellectual. As Bush would say, "We've seen their kind before" and they will end up "in history's trash bin of discarded lies."

We must pray for this man and his fans. Many students like him.
By TDDance234
Registration Days Posts
#343609
Rob Bell's theology stinks and always has. This isn't anything new.

While his theology stinks, he's done more to get people thinking and asking tough questions than anyone else.
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By SumItUp
Registration Days Posts
#343635
TDDance234 wrote:
While his theology stinks, he's done more to get people thinking and asking tough questions than anyone else.
Is Rob Bell "Roccgroh"? :evil:
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#343637
TDDance234 wrote:While his theology stinks, he's done more to get people thinking and asking tough questions than anyone else.
Sounds like a compliment, one that can't be justified.
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By Th3rd
Registration Days Posts
#343646
rob bell may be a heretic. but to be quite frank, he is a genius when it comes to marketing. notice how all the bloggers bashed him for the book before it was out and the day it was released it was sold out pretty much everywhere.

also makes me think of the verse that says "If they hate you rejoice, for they hated me as well".... makes me think about all the hate that has been thrown at him these past couple of days, isn't he doing something right if he is being hated? isn't that what Christ said. now I am in no way defending what Rob says or endorsing his theology, but even guys like Billy Graham have said stuff that seemed to be Universalist. I just think we see the name Rob Bell and automatically label him a heretic..

As TD pointed out, he has caused great launching points for conversations to happen...

And another thing, how do you think the world is viewing all of this? I mean John Piper and his camp tweeted something like "So Long Rob" with an article that completed trashed Bell. How do you think non-christians are going to view something like that. When Christian brothers trash and defame each other, it is hard to turn around to the non Christian world and preach Love.

sorry for the rambling... just my thoughts
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#343647
Th3rd wrote:rob bell may be a heretic. but to be quite frank, he is a genius when it comes to marketing. notice how all the bloggers bashed him for the book before it was out and the day it was released it was sold out pretty much everywhere.

also makes me think of the verse that says "If they hate you rejoice, for they hated me as well".... makes me think about all the hate that has been thrown at him these past couple of days, isn't he doing something right if he is being hated? isn't that what Christ said. now I am in no way defending what Rob says or endorsing his theology, but even guys like Billy Graham have said stuff that seemed to be Universalist. I just think we see the name Rob Bell and automatically label him a heretic..

As TD pointed out, he has caused great launching points for conversations to happen...

And another thing, how do you think the world is viewing all of this? I mean John Piper and his camp tweeted something like "So Long Rob" with an article that completed trashed Bell. How do you think non-christians are going to view something like that. When Christian brothers trash and defame each other, it is hard to turn around to the non Christian world and preach Love.

sorry for the rambling... just my thoughts
I don't agree with any of that, except that he's good at marketing (but so what?). Do you realize how many people, kids especially, that this man has taken down this dangerous path? I agree with John MacArthur's position that if a man claiming to be Christian publicly err's in such a way, then you publicly rebuke them. Non-Christians need to know that we'll defend what we believe, because we believe it with all our heart without any shred of doubt. And I really haven't seen "hate" being directed at Rob Bell. Sure you can find some (what can't you find?), but this is what we've been warned about in Scripture. To ignore it and actually embrace it as "furthering discussion and asking deep questions" is irresponsible and immature. Guess what? All these questions have been asked before, it's just new people asking them, nothing is being furthered by it, especially the Gospel.
By NG33
Registration Days Posts
#343650
ALUmnus wrote: To ignore it and actually embrace it as "furthering discussion and asking deep questions" is irresponsible and immature. Guess what? All these questions have been asked before, it's just new people asking them, nothing is being furthered by it, especially the Gospel.
Here is where I disagree. While Bell's ideas are recycled and not "a new way to look at the Gospel", a lot of Christians do not really know that. This book has been brought up numerous times within the last few days in my circle of friends and it has caused really good dialogue. Heck, last night I had a 3 hour talk with a person I had never met on all of this. Say what you will, but this whole thing has cause me and a few others i know to read Scripture more and see what it says instead of what any one person has said.
By flamehunter
Registration Days Posts
#343653
Th3rd wrote:And another thing, how do you think the world is viewing all of this? I mean John Piper and his camp tweeted something like "So Long Rob" with an article that completed trashed Bell. How do you think non-christians are going to view something like that. When Christian brothers trash and defame each other, it is hard to turn around to the non Christian world and preach Love.

sorry for the rambling... just my thoughts
Just my thoughts....

If Rob Bell truly believes what he says, I have a very hard time labelling him a "Christian brother". His words and actions speak otherwise to me. I know only God knows his heart for sure, but we are to beware false teachers and doctrines.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#343696
Bell's off his rocker with this crap. Th3rd is completely wrong saying that this is what Jesus meant when he said people would hate you for what you do. The truth is people are going to talk crap when you're a complete idiot and are spreading a message that isn't the truth.

That said, Sex God was a phenomenal book.
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#344010
Frank Turk has been writing an open letter to someone each week for the year. If you haven't read them yet, you should, they've been outstanding. This week the letter was to, who else?, Rob Bell. This is just the close, but what he's really tackling in the letter is one of the greatest fallacies of post-modernism: hypocrisy.

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/03/op ... -bell.html
I’m at my normal 3-page limit, so I’ll close with this: one of the reasons Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees is that they had a tradition which they thought was greater than Moses – greater than the Temple, greater than what God actually wants from men, which you have framed in your own Sunday talks as the “greater matters” of “justice and mercy”, the greatest commandments to love God above all and your neighbor as yourself. To that end, they taught all kinds of things, and behaved in all kinds of ways which made them blind to Jesus and to dismiss Jesus and ultimately to hate Jesus – to the point of plotting to kill him.

And in your view of your message, you are keyed on the question of the greater things so that we do not miss them. But the greatest thing was not the Law: it was Jesus himself. It was his work on our behalf. When Peter knew Jesus was the Christ, Jesus started to tell him that he didn’t come to reclaim the throne of David: Jesus said that he had to suffer and die, and be raised on the third day.

For your own good, please think about this. What you are teaching now is, in the best case, a Christian-flavored secular Judaism. That is: you make Jesus a good rabbi and not a great savior. Repent of it, Rob: repent because there’s no shame in turning away from even decades of wrong teaching to turning over a new leaf and teaching that Jesus saves sinner from their own sins and from God’s displeasure if they repent and believe. That is actually the message of the NT, and it ought to be your message if you’re really concerned with the real people you meet every day.
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