[Sly Fox]

Let's be honest here ... Joel has never claimed to be a theologian. The week before he took Lakewood he was running the a/v department of the church and owned a local television station. He's had very little religious training of any significance. What he is doing is soft-selling the Word. Whether that is positive or negative is certainly grounds for debate.

But much like I hate the in-fighting among Fundamentalists I really don't feel comfortable villainizing someone who I feel is on our side. Do I agree with much of his doctrine (if you can find any let me know)? No. But being on the ground in Houston I can tell you I see a lot of positives coming out of that place. And I admit I rather enjoy attending there on occasion. It does feels more like a pep rally than a worship service. But from time to time, I know I can use that type of experience in my life.

[Baldspot]

I saw the Larry King interview online and then posted the transcript on this board shortly after the interview when the subject came up back then. For some reason I can't get the search engine for our board to bring it up and I'm at work and do not have access to youtube etc. Transcripts are good but the video in this case shows how Joel struggled when King threw some real softballs his way.

I totally understand and accept the idea of using varying forms of hermeneutics in the study of scriptures - I was raised in a United Methodist church, saved while attending Pentecostal church camp and never heard of fundamentalism until I landed at Liberty.

The problem I have, however, is that Joel is making himself out to be an expert, by choice or by birthright, while standing on a major platform. How a pastor can be so unsure of himself on issues so "fundamental" to the faith is a little perplexing.

[El Scorcho]

How do you feel about that scorcy....this rub's me the wrong way but from how you set it up it almost seemed like you really didnt have that much of a problem with it

I don't think Joel and I would be Best Bible Buddies, but I don't think he was quoted completely accurately, either. Of course, I'm only reading the transcript and like Baldspot said, the video could lend to interpretation. I also agree with Baldspot's last point.

[kel varson]

And now for something completely serious:

There are a lot of preachers like JO out there. He is just the lates incarnation of the Mega Church movement. I compare him to a Willow Creek (Illinois) Ed Hybles church. Yes, his sermons aren't going to rival Jonathon Edwards for their dogman and hermeneuitcs, BUT they do have mass appeal and bring people into the church. Isn't there a place for that anymore? SLY makes a rare good point when he says people LEAVE that church to find other places to grow. Why is this wrong? He does a great job of putting positive spin on Christianity to show people that it is not all hellfire and brimstone. Think of the people he can reach.
Now, does he look like a child molester? Probably. WAAAAYYYY to much hair gel, looks like an old manager of mine who I despised, not a big fan of his wife (although she is sort of a hotty) and I am ALWAYS suspicious of TV Preachers. Maybe that is b/c I have had personal experiences with OR, JandT, and JS. So until he get arrested for molestin dead collies or such I am going ot give him the benefit of the doubt. Remember alot of these thigs were also said about Rick warren

There are some major differences between Osteen and Warren. First, Warren has no interest in being a TV evangelist, just because of the reputation. Second: The prosperity Gospel stuff: Warren gives all his money away and takes ZERO salary. Lives in modest home and drives a middle class vehicle. TV evangelists and money have an ugly history and i for one am glad Warren stays away from that. To me, there is something very wrong with Pastor living like a billionaire.

[kel varson]

I liked his sermon series on eating healthy. It was very insightful. No Bible in it, but I learned what I should be eating. Gotta stay away from the white bread.

[Sly Fox]

Who brought Rick Warren into the discussion? I understand the Hybels analogy since both are "seeker" ministries.

[kel varson]

Who brought Rick Warren into the discussion? I understand the Hybels analogy since both are "seeker" ministries.

Haize did.

[kel varson]

Osteen is on King tonight---CNN.

[Fumblerooskies]

That must be the replay of the show that started this thread. Perhaps I was not so far off base, after all.

[Purple Haize]

SLY - I brought them both into the discussion. Why? Because I am A #1 at multitasking!!
KEL- What exactly is wrong with a preacher living like a billionaire? And who is to decide what is modest living and what is not? Once again, JO will not go down in history as the next Oswald Chambers, but he may not go down as the next Jimmy Swaggart either.

[kel varson]

SLY - I brought them both into the discussion. Why? Because I am A #1 at multitasking!!
KEL- What exactly is wrong with a preacher living like a billionaire? And who is to decide what is modest living and what is not? Once again, JO will not go down in history as the next Oswald Chambers, but he may not go down as the next Jimmy Swaggart either.

If a preacher can live like a billionaire and not a have a problem with greed, covetousness and lust than more power to him. Only God can judge the heart. "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven." My paraphrase of what Jesus said. Also take note of the rich young ruler.

Granted poor people have problems with lust, greed and the like, but statistics show the absolute worst givers in terms of percentage are not the poor but the rich.

Explain to me how a pastor is going to earn his billions if he's caring for his flock and not working a second job. Okay, there are few cases where he might make some money outside of the pulpit including inheritance. 99 percent of pastors don't work lucrative second jobs. Therefore if they are making millions it is likely coming from the giving of the church. Now, lets see what could we do with that money? Give the pastor 1 millions dollars for salary or support missionaries and use it for other means of outreach. To me this is a no brainer.

[Purple Haize]

KEL - This is a slippery slope, for if you apply the "Camel" analogy towards preachers then you must apply it to everyone. Therefore, it would follow that it is not a good thing to be a "rich" Christian. IF some of these evangelists wanted to they COULD live the lavish lifestyle. Some could live a lot more lavishly then they do at present. Others could live more "modestly" then others. But again, who is to say what Modest is? What may be modest to you may seem cheap or elaborate to someone else.
You also make the mistake to think that economics is a Zero sum endeavor. Just because someone uses money for one thing doesn't mean it is being taken from somewhere else. What if these preachers lived on royalties from their book, video's, CD's etc? That can add up to quite a chunk of change, yet they would be taking nothing from their congregations. Iknow of 3 "mega pastor's" who do this. Therefore the lifestyle they lead may seem elaborate, but it is costing their "base" congregations ZERO dollars. Is this bad?
The point is, and you do elude to it, is money is neither here not there. What is in someone's heart is what matters. In this thread it seems that JO is being based on how he lives. (Or in my case WAY to much in the hair care product venue!) and punished for not being a fiery theologian. Yet people come, lives are changed, and spiritual jouney's begun!

[thesportscritic]

Kel so are you saying that you have a problem with rich people? I see nothing wrong with a pastor having alot of money.

[El Scorcho]

What if they're rich AND sexy? Is that a double whammy?

[kel varson]

Kel so are you saying that you have a problem with rich people? I see nothing wrong with a pastor having alot of money.

Again, it all depends where he gets the money. I explained this! If the money is from his church I think it would be better spent feeding the poor and helping with outreach, not buying STINKING ROLLS ROYCE'S and MANSIONS!!!!!!!!


And no I don't have a problem with rich people. Just people who are fleecing their flock by preaching this prosperity Gospel garbage.

If someone's rich and the give a large percentage of their money away, that's fine. If they are hoarding it, they have a problem. Guys, you can't take your money with you. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your own soul. Money is a tool, not something to be worshipped. I have rich friends who use their money to further the Gospel. I'm fine with that.

[kel varson]

KEL - This is a slippery slope, for if you apply the "Camel" analogy towards preachers then you must apply it to everyone. Therefore, it would follow that it is not a good thing to be a "rich" Christian. IF some of these evangelists wanted to they COULD live the lavish lifestyle. Some could live a lot more lavishly then they do at present. Others could live more "modestly" then others. But again, who is to say what Modest is? What may be modest to you may seem cheap or elaborate to someone else.
You also make the mistake to think that economics is a Zero sum endeavor. Just because someone uses money for one thing doesn't mean it is being taken from somewhere else. What if these preachers lived on royalties from their book, video's, CD's etc? That can add up to quite a chunk of change, yet they would be taking nothing from their congregations. Iknow of 3 "mega pastor's" who do this. Therefore the lifestyle they lead may seem elaborate, but it is costing their "base" congregations ZERO dollars. Is this bad?
The point is, and you do elude to it, is money is neither here not there. What is in someone's heart is what matters. In this thread it seems that JO is being based on how he lives. (Or in my case WAY to much in the hair care product venue!) and punished for not being a fiery theologian. Yet people come, lives are changed, and spiritual jouney's begun!

I do apply the camel analogy to everyone. The camel analogy doesn't say their won't be rich people in heaven. It says its hard for a rich man to go to heaven. (becasue of where his heart is. "Many fall into traps") See: Rich young ruler.

Again, God is going to judge people's heart. Its not so much a matter of living modestly, its what percentage are you giving away. In a sense, everyone in the United States is wealthy. It just depends where your heart is.

As far as pastor's making money off books, I don't have problem with that, but I think the pastor should be careful about his lifestyle as not to be a stumbling block. I really think if a pastor had a middle class church and drove a nicer car than most everyone in his congregation and lived in nicer home than most everyone in his congregation, he would have a really hard time getting his congregation to buy into Biblical Giving. Even if the pastor was giving away 80 percent of his income, people would still not believe him.

[kel varson]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32544

Intersting thread on the same topic. (wealthy pastors)

[Sly Fox]

Wow, I didn't expect to see that board referenced on here. I guess I need to be careful with mu posting now.

[thesportscritic]

Kel so are you saying that you have a problem with rich people? I see nothing wrong with a pastor having alot of money.

Again, it all depends where he gets the money. I explained this! If the money is from his church I think it would be better spent feeding the poor and helping with outreach, not buying STINKING ROLLS ROYCE'S and MANSIONS!!!!!!!!


And no I don't have a problem with rich people. Just people who are fleecing their flock by preaching this prosperity Gospel garbage.

If someone's rich and the give a large percentage of their money away, that's fine. If they are hoarding it, they have a problem. Guys, you can't take your money with you. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your own soul. Money is a tool, not something to be worshipped. I have rich friends who use their money to further the Gospel. I'm fine with that.

what is wrong with spending some money on themselves sometimes? it seems like you want them to just spend their money only to help others out and i am fine with that, but they have a right to spend on themselves sometimes too.

[kel varson]

Kel so are you saying that you have a problem with rich people? I see nothing wrong with a pastor having alot of money.

Again, it all depends where he gets the money. I explained this! If the money is from his church I think it would be better spent feeding the poor and helping with outreach, not buying STINKING ROLLS ROYCE'S and MANSIONS!!!!!!!!


And no I don't have a problem with rich people. Just people who are fleecing their flock by preaching this prosperity Gospel garbage.

If someone's rich and the give a large percentage of their money away, that's fine. If they are hoarding it, they have a problem. Guys, you can't take your money with you. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your own soul. Money is a tool, not something to be worshipped. I have rich friends who use their money to further the Gospel. I'm fine with that.

what is wrong with spending some money on themselves sometimes? it seems like you want them to just spend their money only to help others out and i am fine with that, but they have a right to spend on themselves sometimes too.

Nothing is wrong with spending money on themselves. Where did you get that impression. I said I have rich friends, so obviously they spend money on themselves. The best way to see someones heart is to look where they spend there money and their time.

Finally, I have no problem with individual wealth. This is a heart issue between the wealthy and God.

I do have a problem with Prosperity Gospel or teaching that all Christians should be wealthy and if they are not they lack Faith. "Very unbiblical teaching."

[kel varson]

Wow, I didn't expect to see that board referenced on here. I guess I need to be careful with mu posting now.

I'm confused. Care to elaborate.

[Sly Fox]

I post on that board from time to time.

[thesportscritic]

Again, it all depends where he gets the money. I explained this! If the money is from his church I think it would be better spent feeding the poor and helping with outreach, not buying STINKING ROLLS ROYCE'S and MANSIONS!!!!!!!!


And no I don't have a problem with rich people. Just people who are fleecing their flock by preaching this prosperity Gospel garbage.

If someone's rich and the give a large percentage of their money away, that's fine. If they are hoarding it, they have a problem. Guys, you can't take your money with you. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your own soul. Money is a tool, not something to be worshipped. I have rich friends who use their money to further the Gospel. I'm fine with that.

what is wrong with spending some money on themselves sometimes? it seems like you want them to just spend their money only to help others out and i am fine with that, but they have a right to spend on themselves sometimes too.

Nothing is wrong with spending money on themselves. Where did you get that impression. I said I have rich friends, so obviously they spend money on themselves. The best way to see someones heart is to look where they spend there money and their time.

Finally, I have no problem with individual wealth. This is a heart issue between the wealthy and God.

I do have a problem with Prosperity Gospel or teaching that all Christians should be wealthy and if they are not they lack Faith. "Very unbiblical teaching."

from your initial posts you said that preachers who are rich should only give their money to helping others and not spend it lavishly. Rich people including preachers will spend money on themselves sometimes too.

[kel varson]

what is wrong with spending some money on themselves sometimes? it seems like you want them to just spend their money only to help others out and i am fine with that, but they have a right to spend on themselves sometimes too.

Nothing is wrong with spending money on themselves. Where did you get that impression. I said I have rich friends, so obviously they spend money on themselves. The best way to see someones heart is to look where they spend there money and their time.

Finally, I have no problem with individual wealth. This is a heart issue between the wealthy and God.

I do have a problem with Prosperity Gospel or teaching that all Christians should be wealthy and if they are not they lack Faith. "Very unbiblical teaching."

from your initial posts you said that preachers who are rich should only give their money to helping others and not spend it lavishly. Rich people including preachers will spend money on themselves sometimes too.

I didn't say only. I try not to be dogmatic. Don't you agree? If someone's rich they should help others by giving a large percentage of their money. After all, the richer you are, the more you can give.

[thesportscritic]

I agree with you about christian rich people should give and help others out but again your initial posts clearly said that they should give and not spend.