[L Fan]

LFAN - Who can keep up with your horrible analogys and simili's? Seriously, your point is even more clouded. As for boxing, the clinch because they are too scared to go toe to toe and club the crap out of each other. So if you want to go down THAT road, you could say that wrestling is a sissy combat sport compared to the striking combat sports. Just saying. I have no clue where you get this "All great men were wrestlers" world view. T Boone Pickens made the largest athletic donation in history. Not a wrestler. Lee and Leo Seal just donated 12 mill to Mississippi state. Not wrestlers. Arizona just got a nice 10 million from...you guessed it NOT a wrestler. I am not denying the value of wrestling and that famous people wrestled, but wrestling does not have some type of monopoly of famous participants. As for the IDF General Staffer, if he was alive he probably COULD kick my butt still. However, I DID pin him once (ok I sat on him!) but in Krav Maga, if you hit the ground, you are going to get pummeled. AND I had to buy the beer!

AARON - I am not ignoring, purposefully, your question about When I would fight the 'injustices' of Title IX. The short answer is when it affects me. The long answer is that I have been parties to several instances where there was a fight FOR gender equity. Be it weight room usage, practice times, uniforms, coaches pay etc. So I HAVE been on that side of it. As for the other side, DUKE has a great point. Why are YOU waiting for someone else to do something? Why don't you and the group of wrestlers file suit and have a go at it. Why is it someone ELSE'S responsibility?

BJock - Lighten up!

Purple,
If title 9 isn't changed the oligopoly effect will transform men's college sports, the analogy is meant to help you understand the effects you can simulate in other markets. If you don't get it, you don't get it. It is what it is, not rocket science just the effect of title 9 on Men's College athletics. As one person made mention it is fine because it isn't your sport, but soon all the Men's sports will be at risk other than F Ball and B ball. It sounds like you favor B ball good for you. The purpose of elevating participants of wrestling is to give awareness. The actual sport of wrestling in america is in the fight it's life due to title 9. There are now less than 70 D1 schools that have a wrestling program.
Again I would hope someone is held accountable for this debacle, to see this happen to such a honorable man as Coach Castro is criminal. I'm sure he viewed this as his ministry...so sad.

[Purple Haize]

Wow. Not sure I can respond to all of LFAN or AARON but here is what I have.
1. It is a LONG stretch to say a cancelled TV sitcom and a one term VP (who I personally like) helped bring down the LU wrestling program.
2. Be VERY cafeful when playng the "ministry" card. "Ministry" comes in many different forms and just b/c one is at Liberty does NOT make one more righteous than anyone else. It is not fair to any of the coaches to suggest that one coach is more committed to ministry than the other.
3. The elimination of men's sports to obtain gender equity are the cases that get all of the spotlight. It does prompt debate into the effects of the legistlation. HOWEVER, what does not get the attention, and thus the 'meat and potatoes' comment, are basic 'access' issues. The women's teams have just as much right to use of the facilities as the men's team. They should not be expected to have every practice at 8 pm or use of the other facilities AFTER the men have their time. ALL sports should, and here at LU do, work together to make sure all sports have equal access to facilities and times.
4. Finally, like every issue, there are "extremists" on both sides. There are those who think that women's sports SHOULD play second fiddle (or no fiddle) or at the very least not inconvenience Men's sports. On the other side, you have the NOW folks that you mentioned. There are a lot of people in the middle and, IMO, the majority of people would not like to see ANY programs eliminated. That includes the "NOW" folks. However, monetary considerations DO come into play and make the 'ideal' nearly impossible.

It sounds like you all are lawyering up. Good for you. It is good that you are being proactive instead of expecting someone else to handle the problem.

[flamehunter]

It sounds like you all are lawyering up. Good for you. It is good that you are being proactive instead of expecting someone else to handle the problem.

Not necessarily. If you saw Dan P's comment before he edited it, it sounds like they are going after the wrong target (not the NCAA or whoever is responsible for Title IX, more local).

[Aaron Bruce]

Be VERY cafeful when playng the "ministry" card. "Ministry" comes in many different forms and just b/c one is at Liberty does NOT make one more righteous than anyone else. It is not fair to any of the coaches to suggest that one coach is more committed to ministry than the other.

Did anyone say or even imply that wrestling was more righteous? I know I certainly did not

The elimination of men's sports to obtain gender equity are the cases that get all of the spotlight. It does prompt debate into the effects of the legistlation. HOWEVER, what does not get the attention, and thus the 'meat and potatoes' comment, are basic 'access' issues. The women's teams have just as much right to use of the facilities as the men's team. They should not be expected to have every practice at 8 pm or use of the other facilities AFTER the men have their time.

You made great efforts earlier to prove that men’s basketball and football are either revenue producing or at the very least bring substantial intrinsic value to a university. The other sports (Olympic and women’s) are primarily in existence to provide educational leadership opportunities. I believe we can all agree that there is NOTHING amateur about college basketball and football. Please confirm your position; do men’s basketball and football bring unequalled value to a university and therefore, by necessity, become market driven with their resources?

[olldflame]

If people are actually going to sue the school over this, I hope they spend a fortune on lawyers and get nowhere. LU has done more than they were obligated to in agreeing to provide a continued scholarship for those wrestlers who choose to stay in school. That's actually better than the year to year arrangement they had before and that athletes in other sports have.

[Aaron Bruce]

It sounds like you all are lawyering up. Good for you. It is good that you are being proactive instead of expecting someone else to handle the problem.

Not necessarily. If you saw Dan P's comment before he edited it, it sounds like they are going after the wrong target (not the NCAA or whoever is responsible for Title IX, more local).

Although I am not inside the loop on this (please private message me if you know what’s going on – My identity has never been hidden as I use my real name in this forum, I am Liberty alum class of ’94) I think that is the only way we can go. I believe any law suit would need to be against the employer (Liberty University). Ironically, the gender equity law of Title IX would be sited- i.e. Castro and company got fired specifically BECAUSE of their gender – hard to refute that fact.

The law is very simple, “No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance..." This has been one of my points about the feminists. If they truly wanted to expand opportunities for women, NOW would be Castro’s best friend. NOW would have THEIR lawyers representing Castro in order to require Liberty to keep the wrestling program but add women’s programs.

Most liberal universities are in bed with the liberal agenda so they will never site Title IX as the culprit for the reduction- they always use finances as a reason. So, the Olympic men never have a leg to stand on when they claim they have been a victim of gender discrimination. I think it might not be a coincidence that a conservative university actually called, “a spade a spade”. Are we going to challenge the constitutionality of quotas just like we are challenging the constitutionality of Obama care? As a conservative, I firmly stand in the camp that quotas are inherently discriminatory by their very nature.

This might become interesting-Jerry Jr. a chip off the ole block? He certainly would make his father proud.

[thepostman]

but did jerry sr fight for the wrestling team the first time around?? I ask that honestly...yes Jerry Sr wanted it back but he never took the fight to title IX because it would be a losing fight whether you want to admit it or not...

If you end up suing the school or anybody else decides to sue the school over this then it will do nothing to help our school, or you cause. It will hurt both causes more then I think you want to admit....

I can't believe this thread has lasted so long...

Wrestling got cut a second time, it sucks, title IX sucks...but its the nature of the beast and isn't going to be overturned

[Sly Fox]

Actually, Coach Castro and his staff would be most likely to not be considered under gender discrimination. There eventual dismissal is based on the elimination of the program. That's very cut & dried regardless of their gender. So if that is the route being taken to sue the school then you can consider me as someone who is opposed to this legal action.

I recognize that emotions are high, but I hope everyone involved is able to take a step back and recognize that their actions are not likely to have any impact on the state of the program but only will cost all involved a great deal of time, money and embarrassment.

[Aaron Bruce]

Actually, Coach Castro and his staff would be most likely to not be considered under gender discrimination. There eventual dismissal is based on the elimination of the program. That's very cut & dried regardless of their gender.

Not really seeing your position here. Liberty University said, in effect, “We are going to discontinue your program and your positions within the university specifically because you are men and we don’t want to have that many men in our programs. Are you denying that the program is being eliminated because they are men?

[El Scorcho]

NOW would have THEIR lawyers representing Castro in order to require Liberty to keep the wrestling program but add women’s programs.

Except that you can't force a school to spend money to universally add the availability of sports. That would be an unfair burden on schools. As long as a school is in compliance, they can limit how much money they choose to spend on athletics. You're twisting the law to argue that a school should be forced to infinitely extend its athletics budget to support every student that wants to participate in any sport. That's ridiculous.

[BJWilliams]

Its also not financially feasible...imagine how high of an athletics budget a school would have to have to be able to offer every single sport that the NCAA recognizes (21 of them if Im counting correctly). I dont think there is any school, especially private, that could take on that big of a potential financial burden

[logic]

Are we really talking about the absurd possibility of bringing a lawsuit against LU? And from our own?
This is absolutely off the reservation and would only strengthen the mainstream view (even from many Christians) that we (LU) are insane. No way this can be positive for Liberty, the wrestling program, anyone involved, or our goal to see 25,000 on campus and a world class, nationally respected academic institution.

Perception is reality.

[Aaron Bruce]

Except that you can't force a school to spend money to universally add the availability of sports. That would be an unfair burden on schools. As long as a school is in compliance, they can limit how much money they choose to spend on athletics. You're twisting the law to argue that a school should be forced to infinitely extend its athletics budget to support every student that wants to participate in any sport. That's ridiculous.

I think you are starting to see the absurdity of Title IX. You know, Liberty tried to satisfy it with prong 3 (interest and abilities) but a couple of girls wanted to ride horses. Next thing you know, OCR told Liberty that they were discriminating against women because we didn’t have equestrian as a sport. Yes, you are absolutely correct; it is ridiculous to expect a school to, “infinitely extend its athletics budget to support every student that wants to participate in any sport.”

Football and Men’s basketball are different animals. It has been pointed out on this board numerous times that these sports bring in money and prestige to a university. They need to be taken out of the equation when trying to be “fair” to women. Notice I said fair and not equal. Equality and fairness can be entirely two different things. To think that it is fair for the head woman’s basketball coach for Duke to make as much money as coach “K” is ridiculous. To expect that the women’s coach makes as much money as the other Olympic sports who don’t bring in prestige or profit is obviously “fair”. To expect a school to find enough girls to make up for 100 man football roster is equally crazy.

Maybe you can’t force a school to add a sport but apparently you can force them to drop one.

[Purple Haize]

AARON - This is the quote from LFAN I was referencing:

Again I would hope someone is held accountable for this debacle, to see this happen to such a honorable man as Coach Castro is criminal. I'm sure he viewed this as his ministry...so sad.

The inference is quite easy. Since no one doubts that Coach Castro IS an honorable man or that he sees this as a ministry, why bring it up? Unless you are trying to say there are "others" who "should be held accountable" who are not honorable and do NOT see their jobs as a ministry.

I do not understand what you are asking as far as "educational leadership opportunities. College basketball and football are run like a business by the "powers that be", but they are still amateur. What that has to do with practice times and facility access, I have no idea. As for your last sentence I would argue it depends on ones definition of "the market" and whether or not there is 'necessity". Not trying to side stip, but can't agree to such a generalization.
If you are going to sue the university, good luck with that!! I thought the reason you wanted LU to sue the government/NCAA over Title IX was because they would have the resources to counter those by the opposition? This must mean that you now have greater resources then those you hoped from LU which would then in turn beg the question why don't "YOU" sue the same people over Title IX?

[Purple Haize]

AARON - If the women's coach a Duke had as many national championships, final four appearances, winning % etc, you are darn RIGHT they would and should get paid on the same level. Case in point: UT and UCONN.

[L Fan]

Except that you can't force a school to spend money to universally add the availability of sports. That would be an unfair burden on schools. As long as a school is in compliance, they can limit how much money they choose to spend on athletics. You're twisting the law to argue that a school should be forced to infinitely extend its athletics budget to support every student that wants to participate in any sport. That's ridiculous.

I think you are starting to see the absurdity of Title IX. You know, Liberty tried to satisfy it with prong 3 (interest and abilities) but a couple of girls wanted to ride horses. Next thing you know, OCR told Liberty that they were discriminating against women because we didn’t have equestrian as a sport. Yes, you are absolutely correct; it is ridiculous to expect a school to, “infinitely extend its athletics budget to support every student that wants to participate in any sport.”

Football and Men’s basketball are different animals. It has been pointed out on this board numerous times that these sports bring in money and prestige to a university. They need to be taken out of the equation when trying to be “fair” to women. Notice I said fair and not equal. Equality and fairness can be entirely two different things. To think that it is fair for the head woman’s basketball coach for Duke to make as much money as coach “K” is ridiculous. To expect that the women’s coach makes as much money as the other Olympic sports who don’t bring in prestige or profit is obviously “fair”. To expect a school to find enough girls to make up for 100 man football roster is equally crazy.

Maybe you can’t force a school to add a sport but apparently you can force them to drop one.

Watch out if you had a sport and dropped it like Brown U you can get banged.

Also, in the effort to be "fair" let's substitute an opportunity for women equal to football. An OPPORTUNITY that WOMEN are "truly" interested in like dance or drama those are my ideas, but let's let women speak for themselves. We are acting just like men when we say "Yeah honey I understand the problem let me "fix it". And pigeon hole women into predominantly Men's sports. What is that about my daughter's that are equally athletic but have feminity flowing through their veins. They like dancing, cheerleading and other girl activities. Why are there no OPPORTUNITIES for them? To force them to play men's sports makes them break out in hives. How is that "fair"?

[Aaron Bruce]

AARON - This is the quote from LFAN I was referencing:

Again I would hope someone is held accountable for this debacle, to see this happen to such a honorable man as Coach Castro is criminal. I'm sure he viewed this as his ministry...so sad.

The inference is quite easy. Since no one doubts that Coach Castro IS an honorable man or that he sees this as a ministry, why bring it up? Unless you are trying to say there are "others" who "should be held accountable" who are not honorable and do NOT see their jobs as a ministry.

whatever, I think you are trying to demonize someone without merit…LFAN is the only one who can attest but I can’t imagine that he was inferring anything of the sort. Again, I DO NOT think that wrestling is any “better” of a ministry than any other sport.

I do not understand what you are asking as far as "educational leadership opportunities. College basketball and football are run like a business by the "powers that be", but they are still amateur. What that has to do with practice times and facility access, I have no idea. As for your last sentence I would argue it depends on ones definition of "the market" and whether or not there is 'necessity". Not trying to side stip, but can't agree to such a generalization.

If you can’t understand why the market dictates that a men’s basketball coach makes more than a woman’s coach, you certainly haven’t, “forgotten more about sports than most people know.” (is that actually what you said, I don’t have the time to look it up). You are right, Men’s basketball coaches bring millions of dollars to the respective universities. Women’s coaches unfortunately don’t; neither do wrestling coaches. Therefore, there must be other reasons colleges have women’s basketball and wrestling. You tell me, if women’s basketball doesn’t turn a profit, why should a school sponsor it?

If you think that because the football team gets first dibs at the weight room that is discrimination, you sir are delusional. The point is this; Men’s basketball and football are by most every measuring stick professional. Most every decision in regards to these two programs revolve around, “how will it bring revenue/prestige to our school.” The others (women’s sports and Olympic) are specifically designed to provide educational opportunities to the student body. Therefore, if anyone cares about being “fair” they need to take those “revenue” sports out of the equation and begin asking if the women are being treated fairly in relation to the men’s Olympic teams. I suspect that most women’s coaches would be rather upset if they were on equal pay with the wrestling coach.

If you are going to sue the university, good luck with that!! I thought the reason you wanted LU to sue the government/NCAA over Title IX was because they would have the resources to counter those by the opposition? This must mean that you now have greater resources then those you hoped from LU which would then in turn beg the question why don't "YOU" sue the same people over Title IX?

I have absolutely no idea what the plans are. As I mentioned earlier, someone please private message me if you know what’s up. I am simply a retired wrestling coach turned construction manager without ANY financial assets whatsoever. I am only ASSUMING that the course of action would need to name Liberty in the suit; maybe not, maybe Liberty could sue OCR. I would think that OCR would first need to discontinue federal funds before Liberty could claim damages. As of now, the only ones claiming damages are the wrestlers. Again, the idea of me suggesting legal strategy is silly; I am only some dumb wrestler turned construction worker. But, it would make sense (If Jerry Jr. wants Liberty to be the conservative stalwart ) that he would give the NWCA (national wrestling coaches association) as much ammunition for “reverse discrimination” as possible. It would presumably be the NWCA and not the Liberty Alumni to financially back the suit because of their political and financial clout. Believe me, if the wrestling community (and the other olympic sports for that matter) see there is finally a school that has given it an opportunity to question the constitutionality of Title IX, you might be surprised at the resources we could come up with. As I said earlier, Liberty is the first school to actually name Title IX as the culprit. I find it interesting that Jerry did that. For some reason, he took a stand against the status quo of the liberal institutions. I believe that the other liberal school are in cahoots with NOW and the bunch when they don’t name Title IX as the reason for dumping men because they suspect that if they did, the constitutionality of the law might be brought in question. Again, I am a dumb construction worker- what do I know? But, please do not think that I am speaking on behalf of ANY organization or group of people. I am simply a man that was saved to eternal life through the direct involvement of the Liberty wrestling program trying to emotionally deal with the devastating blow.

[olldflame]

The courts have ruled already on cheerleading and dance teams Lfan, and determined they are not sports. Drama? You're kidding, right? Not only is it less of a sport than dance or cheerleading, here's a news flash ....... MOST PLAYS HAVE ABOUT EQUAL NUMBERS OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THEM!!!! I know. I majored in theatre at LU. Are you suggesting we count it as a "sport" for the women and not the men? I think you need to take a break. Your arguments are getting more and more far-fetched.

Oh, and by the way, I think you may also want to try watching some of our women's teams play. You may be amazed to find that women really do enjoy playing actual sports.

[Purple Haize]

Very glad that wrestling was able to help turn your life around
My exact quote was that I have probably forgotten more sports HISTORY than anyone else on the board, not SPORTS.
I am not trying to demonize anyone. I am also not the one playing the "ministry" card.
"Dibs" on the weight room IS part of what Title IX is about. It is fact, not delusion.
You are speaking on a University level when you are talking about equity in wage. That is fine, but I do know that they had to re work Pat Summitt's contract when Phil Fulmer won ONE national championship at UT, she still has a few more and was PAID MORE. When Coach Calhoun got a pay bump at UCONN, guess who else did? I'll give you a hint, he has GREAT hair. On the high school level, if the Boys BBall coach is on an 11 month contract, the Girls BBall better be on one as well. If the boys soccer coach is on an 11 month contract, the girls soccer coach better be as well. That is why Title IX is deeper then you think.
I do not equate WBB with wrestling, b/c there are no Apples to Apples comparison as there is between WBB and MBB.
I didn't say I can't understand 'market forces', I said I don't know what your definition of the "market' is.
Finally, you CAN NOT EXCLUDE Football and Men's Basketball in any matrix. Period. You may want to. In your mind it may be easy, but it is NOT POSSIBLE.

[Dan P]

To the Supporters of LU Wrestling --

I will post the notes from the meeting on Thursday (soon) --- it wil be a long post. But - until then, please be patient. I believe there is a chance the program could be saved. I will say this --- after a series of email exchanges and the meetings on Thursday; I have a different prospective --
I am sorry for stating the top leadership didn't care about the wrestlers.I believe the Chancellor does. I will explain more later -- but talk of (useless) law suits doesn't help our cause when the Chancellor is mulling over his options.

More to come! Dan
With Him all things are possible ....

[Kolzilla41]

To the Supporters of LU Wrestling --

I will post the notes from the meeting on Thursday (soon) --- it wil be a long post. But - until then, please be patient. I believe there is a chance the program could be saved. I will say this --- after a series of email exchanges and the meetings on Thursday; I have a different prospective --
I am sorry for stating the top leadership didn't care about the wrestlers.I believe the Chancellor does. I will explain more later -- but talk of (useless) law suits doesn't help our cause when the Chancellor is mulling over his options.

More to come! Dan
With Him all things are possible ....

That's great to hear Dan. I believe all of us are rooting for that outcome.

[L Fan]

The courts have ruled already on cheerleading and dance teams Lfan, and determined they are not sports. Drama? You're kidding, right? Not only is it less of a sport than dance or cheerleading, here's a news flash ....... MOST PLAYS HAVE ABOUT EQUAL NUMBERS OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THEM!!!! I know. I majored in theatre at LU. Are you suggesting we count it as a "sport" for the women and not the men? I think you need to take a break. Your arguments are getting more and more far-fetched.

Oh, and by the way, I think you may also want to try watching some of our women's teams play. You may be amazed to find that women really do enjoy playing actual sports.

Wrong! If you look at the ruling the SC ruled it was not a sport. They were exactly correct. What wasn't brought to the court was why should a physical extracurricular OPPORTUNITY be exempt. The definition should be broadened outside of a "sport". The term sport is too restrictive. More energy needs to put in a truthful strategy. The truth wins on it's own. The truth has yet to be given an OPPORTUNITY. No one disputes what is happening is wrong. It is finding a plausible remedy. For those suggesting we eat our own Yeah, that's perfect.

I think some women do love playing a sport, but why do you want to unisex them? Why can't they enjoy a "physical opportunity" they choose. Why do men have to force a sport on women. Put the shoe on the other foot. How would you think the football team would like having to wear a tutu and dance for an athletic scholarship? Yeah serious! we need to start thinking outside the box and not eat our own. Any other remedies are welcome.

[Dan P]

To the supporters of LU wrestling

As mentioned earlier, I attended a meeting on Thursday afternoon with the Chancellor to discuss ways in which we could save the wrestling program and attack title IX. The good news up front --- I believe there is still hope the program could be saved.

In attendance at the meeting: Jerry Jr., Mr. Askew, Jeff Barber, Jeff Helgeson, Meredith Eaker who works in compliance, the General Counsel (Dave Corry), Jon Gonzalez - a law student, and me. First a quick observation -- I've never met Jerry Falwell (Jr) in person previously, but I will say the man does have a "presence". I've interacted with Presidents and Heads of State in the past and Jerry's demeanor and presence ranks right up with them.
The meeting was a rather free-flowing discussion of why the program was cut and some history on why the program was established five years ago. Jeff Helgeson did a very good job of providing some historical background on the reasons behind why the program was established.
HISTORY-- A quick synopsis - the alums were asked by Jerry (Sr.) and the AD to raise 100K each year for the first 3 years if they wanted the program. The alums came back a day later and proposed that they could raise a minimum of $25K a year (which they have done every year), but since a wrestling team would carry 30 full time equivalents (FTEs) - new students- the costs would be off-set by the additional students that wrestling would bring in. Additionally, a one time donation (around $100K) would be used to fund the building of the wrestling room. Three days later the AD / Jerry Sr. announced the program was back.

At the meeting on Thursday the AD & his staff outlined the reasons the program was cut: Lib U is tired of having to deal with the OCR audits - the OCR requires annual reports and stays in the "knickers" of the AD and the OCR presence on campus is a hassle. A deal was struck with the OCR that if Lib U became compliant with prong 1 of title IX, then they (OCR) would go away and leave Lib U alone. So, even thought Lib U is currently compliant with established law (which states you must be compliant with ANY of the prongs - I, II, or III), the AD chose to become compliant with BOTH prong I and II. It is a fact the OCR has never required a school to be compliant with any more than just one prong. The AD agreed that Lib U is currently compliant with prong II -- BUT -- in order to get the OCR to go away, Lib U agreed to become compliant with prong I. The goal is to make this happen by Jan, 2012.
MY Opinion: While I can appreciate the audits are a hassle; is filling out the OCR paperwork so cumbersome that it is worth dropping wrestling & breaking the hearts of 39 LU student-athletes? My opinion --- no --- but then again, I am not the one doing the paperwork.
Jerry mostly listened to the debate / discussion around the table, but he did weigh-in on this issue. He made it clear he wanted the OCR to go away. That did not seem negotiable, so I did not question the Chancellor on this - again, I have no idea how much paperwork the OCR requires.

Okay --- So Lib U will move to become prong I compliant. THAT means ---- a combo of about 74 slots need to be reapportioned. LU needs to increase the women rosters by 74 slots, or cut the men's by 74 slots , or a combination therein. The AD's plan is to cut wrestling down to "0" (that's 39 slots right there) and then slightly increase a few women opportunities (an additional 20 slots?) and then spread the remaining 15 or so slot cuts throughout the remaining men's sports (except football). I offered a plan of "roster management" where the women opportunities could be increased by 35 slots, the wrestling team could be reduced by 15 slots, and then the remaining 24 slots could be spread along the remaining men's teams (EXCEPT football). That would mean the wrestling team would drop to 24 wrestlers (a 15 person drop). The remaining 8 men sports would drop an average of 3 per team. Certainly the bigger teams (track) might have to drop 4 or 5 slots, and the smaller teams (golf/ ect) would drop just 1 or 2. AD countered that he felt that such a drop would lessen the competitiveness of the remaining men's teams. I explained that the other men teams would NOT lose any scholarship athletes - just a few of their walk-ons and the men's teams would all still be within one standard deviation of the NCAA D-I national average for their sport. In other words -- if the national average for track is 40 and we are currently carrying 45, we could reduce them down to 38 and NOT hurt their competitiveness. The AD stated the importance of the walk-ons (diamonds in the rough, practice team members, etc). I explained their were other ways to fill that void, if his department used some creativity (if anyone wants to know how to do this - PM me- I'll explain it). The roster management options I laid out are all within compliance of NCAA regs and they are identical to what all of the Big-10 and Big-12 schools do to address this problem.

Jerry stated he would consider everything that was presented at the meeting before making decisions. He and his General Counsel talked in depth about going after the REAL problem - Title IX and how the courts interpretation it.
I pointed out that fighting Title IX is a worthy cause and there are quite a few organizations that would support LU, if LU chose to lead this effort. BUT --- fighting title IX right now doesn't get the wrestling team back for the 2011-2012 season. Long term solution - yes -- but does nothing for the LU wrestlers now.
Finally --- at the end of the meeting, I told everyone the story of how Arizona St. U was a ready to drop wrestling almost 1 year ago to the day. The AD there (Lisa Love) was given an offer she couldn't refuse and she kept the program for a "while longer". Fast forward to the NCAA championships ast month where a one-legged wrestler from ASU wins the NCAAs. Suddently ASU is being bombarded with positive press, interviews, and a tremendous opportunity to showcase their school in the national limelight. The AD (Love) stood in front of the cameras and smiled, stating "I'm glad I saved wrestling, afterall". Who is to say what could happen to LU wrestling in a year from today. Have faith ...........

The meeting pretty much ended at that time. Final observations --- I sensed the Chancellor sincerely wants LU to take the lead on the title IX fight and that he is considering his options on the current status of the program.
The AD and his staff --- I sensed they did not have feelings one way or the other with regard to the wrestlers. They seemed to be indifferent to their concerns. Previous to the meeting I concluded they treated the wrestlers with distain -- I retract that now and say it is more like "indifference".

Continue the prayers ----

[L Fan]

Dan P,

I must applaud your effort, I cannot imagine being the AD in that room, he had to be about to come unglued. Laying out a viable strategy, in front of his boss, Mmmm... interesting visual. He would be "Selfless Man of the Year" to help champion that strategy. I think having that audience at that time may have tanked it. Considering it was tanked before you went in... it remains great effort!

Let see what the decision looks like... Do that burdensome OCR paperwork or hewn those golf skills. "Wrestlers get back under that bus".

Thanks for the insight
Brad

[olldflame]

The courts have ruled already on cheerleading and dance teams Lfan, and determined they are not sports. Drama? You're kidding, right? Not only is it less of a sport than dance or cheerleading, here's a news flash ....... MOST PLAYS HAVE ABOUT EQUAL NUMBERS OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THEM!!!! I know. I majored in theatre at LU. Are you suggesting we count it as a "sport" for the women and not the men? I think you need to take a break. Your arguments are getting more and more far-fetched.

Oh, and by the way, I think you may also want to try watching some of our women's teams play. You may be amazed to find that women really do enjoy playing actual sports.

Wrong! If you look at the ruling the SC ruled it was not a sport. They were exactly correct. What wasn't brought to the court was why should a physical extracurricular OPPORTUNITY be exempt. The definition should be broadened outside of a "sport". The term sport is too restrictive. More energy needs to put in a truthful strategy. The truth wins on it's own. The truth has yet to be given an OPPORTUNITY. No one disputes what is happening is wrong. It is finding a plausible remedy. For those suggesting we eat our own Yeah, that's perfect.

I think some women do love playing a sport, but why do you want to unisex them? Why can't they enjoy a "physical opportunity" they choose. Why do men have to force a sport on women. Put the shoe on the other foot. How would you think the football team would like having to wear a tutu and dance for an athletic scholarship? Yeah serious! we need to start thinking outside the box and not eat our own. Any other remedies are welcome.

Wow. You start your post with the word wrong..........exclaimation point. Then you go on to detail how I was exactly right. But of course, I SHOULD have been wrong, because the court SHOULD have ruled that something you refer to as a PHYSICAL OPPORTUNITY can be substituted for a sport when it comes to women. What you fail to take into account is that even in the highly unlikely event that a court would rule that such a "physical opportunity" can substitute for a sport, THERE ARE MEN WHO WILL WANT TO PARTICIPATE TOO! What you apparently want is to achieve "equality" by setting entirely different standards for men and women. Sorry, that ship sailed a long time ago.