[LUconn]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

[thesportscritic]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

agreed connie boy

[Purple Haize]

Ok, so the typos were "raft" in that one, my bad.

My furry friend SLY - can't say I disagree with you much. You make the obvious points that there are some MAJOR hurdles to overcome. That is the point. I know that Jerry fought long and hard against the "Name it Claim it" theology in the 80's but it seems that is what this D1 dream is becoming.

I was/am a huge BREES(E) fan. Greatest move SD made was trading the Vick pick for he and LT. BUT, I agree and know that the merchandising et al made the Boilers money. I was just pointing out the winnings. Also, again, I was using that as an example. A more betterer example, as I tried to point out would be those school that go to the Iron City bowl et al, since that is what we feel we could compete at. They bleed money. Even the budget dollars you throw out would have to almost double our current budget for the entire athletic department.
Good pick up on the private schools, how could I forget USC! Again, they have a different alumni base then we do. Wake Forest had a one off year, annually the are a sieve for money. Same with TCU. BYU and ND are different animals all together. BYU is basically THE MORMON University (Sort of like THE Ohiho State U) and not much competition to get Mormon students. ND has more history than the Pope does funny hats!

I will correct you on one thing, if the goal of the football program is to cover its own costs and maybe help out a few other programs then you are saying that the football program should bring in more money then it takes out. Knowing that you probably have to PAY for your hyperbolic liscense and mine was EARNED ( ) that is something we like to call in a Free Market society a PROFIT. Again, and to me this is the strongest of the arguments, how many D1A football programs fall into that category? Especially at the level we are talking about competing? ALso, let's us not forget our University's vision as a whole and whether or not this would be a wise investment to make? I believe with Jerry that Sports and Music are the two best ways to attract folks. BUT at what cost?
(Descending soap box)
Correction number 2: We WOULD be competing with UVA and Tech for sponsorship dollars, attendance, TV contract, exposure and heaven forbid athletes.

Correction number 3: I KNOW the Ivies are I AA but I was downloading "adult material" as I was writing this and didn't have enough concentration

I can not speak for SJ et al, but all I am trying to do here is point out the obstacles to reaching this level. There are just too many who say "Gee let's do it in 5 years" (Of course they have been saying that since.......1976) Will it happen? I honestly don't know, under the current structure of the NCAA I am going to say no. (And don't you think the NCAA will go over an application from LU with a fine tooth comb?) Should it happen? That is another story all together. I guess to put my beef in a nutshell (sort of like kung pow beef at Kings Island) just because Jerry said it, and people THINK it is God's will (i.e. the Golden Calf story ED) that doesn't make it right, feasible, or ..............OMG I ran out of words!

[Purple Haize]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

It is impossible to put prayer into a statement of critical thinking. IF you are thinking critically then you can not have any part of the supernatural involved. Now if we are going to get into a discussion on prayer that would be interesting.
Miracles and Prayer are supernatural things. Critical thinking is not

[LUconn]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

agreed connie boy

I think you are the most frustrating person I have ever been in contact with. I feel like I'm in a "Who's on first?" conversation.

[thesportscritic]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

agreed connie boy

I think you are the most frustrating person I have ever been in contact with. I feel like I'm in a "Who's on first?" conversation.

ahhh i'm sorry i could careless about what you think about me

[LUconn]

critical thinking would show us that a prayer for resources that is answered would give us the resources.

It is impossible to put prayer into a statement of critical thinking. IF you are thinking critically then you can not have any part of the supernatural involved. Now if we are going to get into a discussion on prayer that would be interesting.
Miracles and Prayer are supernatural things. Critical thinking is not

True, I guess the answer could be "no", but I think you're taking that out of context. The conversation we were having was about whether or not God could bless us with the resources to do that.

[Purple Haize]

And no one is arguing that is impossible. (Well maybe SJ but he is a fire breathing heathen anyways!!)
It boils down to, IMHO, a theological debate between:
"All things are possible through Christ........" and the "Study to show thy self approved.........." camps.

[Sly Fox]

First off, let's do our best not to let things get personal. I missed most of yesterday's drama and only got online last night long enough for my lengthy reply to the original epistle by Haize (Mrs. Sly was giving me the look of death when I sat down in front of the keyboard). I love the dialogue in regard to the idea of I-A but I don't like seeing us blasting each other.

I don't think anyone on the board feels we need to be filing the application to go I-A tomorrow. But in order for us to make the leap it requires a great deal of planning and preparation. Saying we need to be battling for I-AA titles before we even think about a move is not prudent IMHO. There is going to come a time when others around us are ready to make the move and we need to be in a position where we can make it happen at that very moment. None of us who are firmly in the FBS camp are ignoring the task at hand of winning at the FCS level. We'd LOVE for us to be winning a few national titles before we make the move. We just don't feel it is imperative.

There is as large of a difference between BCS programs and non-BCS programs as there are between I-A & I-AA. Sure we'd love to someday be in the Rose Bowl someday. But right now we'd be thrilled to have a few 2nd tier I-A schools coming to the mountain every year and possibly getting the experience of a bowl trip to the Big Easy, Memphis or some such place.

As for the Flutie Effect, it is a real phenomenon and it could certainly happen to us. The 83 championship made all Mormons in America BYU fans whether they went to the school or not. While I'm not saying the setup now makes a national championship possible for a non-BCS school it does illustrate the type of bounce we could get nationally from Evangelicals who might then adopt us as their 2nd school after their own alma mater as BC enjoyed after Phelan hauled in that pass. Had Baylor not abandoned their position as the flagbearer of Baptist colleges they might've been in position to get a similar bounce with their womens hoops title a few years ago.

[paradox]

It's really not as complicated as some of the ladies on here are making it out to be...but you go girls, nonetheless

[paradox]

I could see staying in 1AA for awhile if an opportunity to hook up with the A10-South existed. We could build some nice rivalries with in state schools such as JMU, W&M, and Richmond. It would help with revenues and possibly draw some of the locals in. Aside from the A-10, it would appear that all of the grass would indeed be greener on the other side. If managed properly, our football program would have the potential to be in a better financial situation than it is currently operating in today.

[paradox]

First off, let's do our best not to let things get personal. I missed most of yesterday's drama and only got online last night long enough for my lengthy reply to the original epistle by Haize (Mrs. Sly was giving me the look of death when I sat down in front of the keyboard). I love the dialogue in regard to the idea of I-A but I don't like seeing us blasting each other.

I don't think anyone on the board feels we need to be filing the application to go I-A tomorrow. But in order for us to make the leap it requires a great deal of planning and preparation. Saying we need to be battling for I-AA titles before we even think about a move is not prudent IMHO. There is going to come a time when others around us are ready to make the move and we need to be in a position where we can make it happen at that very moment. None of us who are firmly in the FBS camp are ignoring the task at hand of winning at the FCS level. We'd LOVE for us to be winning a few national titles before we make the move. We just don't feel it is imperative.

There is as large of a difference between BCS programs and non-BCS programs as there are between I-A & I-AA. Sure we'd love to someday be in the Rose Bowl someday. But right now we'd be thrilled to have a few 2nd tier I-A schools coming to the mountain every year and possibly getting the experience of a bowl trip to the Big Easy, Memphis or some such place.

As for the Flutie Effect, it is a real phenomenon and it could certainly happen to us. The 83 championship made all Mormons in America BYU fans whether they went to the school or not. While I'm not saying the setup now makes a national championship possible for a non-BCS school it does illustrate the type of bounce we could get nationally from Evangelicals who might then adopt us as their 2nd school after their own alma mater as BC enjoyed after Phelan hauled in that pass. Had Baylor not abandoned their position as the flagbearer of Baptist colleges they might've been in position to get a similar bounce with their womens hoops title a few years ago.

This post sums it up nicely. Our current situation is a waiting and preparation process in terms of finding the right opportunity that suits us best. I really don't think that we can put a timetable on it, and if the right opportunity emerges, things may develope at a quicker pace than anticipated.

[bigsmooth]

thanks sly for the post. the name calling gets old. just look at the topic of the thread....it is ok to dream and to certainly talk about it. i personally would love to win a I-AA championship or make multiple playoff appearances, but i can see it from the other side too.

[SuperJon]

Sly, I think we're agreeing more and more. I'm not saying we should never move up. I'm saying we need to get successful here first, start drawing the numbers we need on a consistent basis (meaning 3-5 years, one full recruiting class) and then we can start talking about the move. I think people who are saying we need to be I-A in the next five years and using the Field of Dreams way of thinking are wrong, flat out. It would cripple the school. If we have some success in I-AA, meet more than the minimum for a few years (say we're averaging 18-20k) and the money's there, I will support the idea of looking to move up. I don't think we need to shoot for the minimum, and then move up. I know I keep saying App St, but they're at the top right now and they're the school most ready to make the move. They pack 23,000 people into a 16-17,000 stadium EVERY week. They win EVERY week. Their tv ads for season tickets stretch out over two hours away from the school. We've got to be able to start acting something like that (18-20k a game, winning consistently, drawing casual fans from outside of Lynchburg) before this move will be possible. You guys are saying "Yea, that's possible, but when we get there, we should do this, this, and this." I'm saying, "Let's focus on this, do it the best we possibly can, then we can start talking about the I-A stuff." Our priorities are different.

[Sly Fox]

I agree that our priorities are somewhat different. The I-A camp that I have sat firmly in for over a decade (even through the Karcher years) believe that our moves should be made with our ultimate goal of I-A membership at the forefront. If we are doing this efficiently and successfully, the I-AA success will be a byproduct. Perhaps I am oversimplifying but I believe the FCS/I-AA camp believes we should start looking at FBS membership when we have achieved a certain level of success on the field & int he box office at the FCS level. It is clear distinction and that's why emotions have risen in this thread. I believe both sides have LU's best interests in mind.

As for Appy, JMU, Georgia Southern & Montana ... truth be told they all have administrations who view I-A membership as a goal. Yes, I know that the ASU administrators said following their study that the time wasn't right. But they never said it wasn't a goal. Of course being strapped to the UNC system is holding them back. Geo Southern has never hidden their aspirations and neither has JMU. Do you honestly believe these schools are expending the budgets they have on football with nothing more than FCS in their vision? Montana, well they simply seem content based on the lousy options presented them in their region. It could be argued that all of these schools are already I-A programs who are playing down a level.

[SuperJon]

I agree that our priorities are somewhat different. The I-A camp that I have sat firmly in for over a decade (even through the Karcher years) believe that our moves should be made with our ultimate goal of I-A membership at the forefront. If we are doing this efficiently and successfully, the I-AA success will be a byproduct. Perhaps I am oversimplifying but I believe the FCS/I-AA camp believes we should start looking at FBS membership when we have achieved a certain level of success on the field & int he box office at the FCS level. It is clear distinction and that's why emotions have risen in this thread. I believe both sides have LU's best interests in mind.

As for Appy, JMU, Georgia Southern & Montana ... truth be told they all have administrations who view I-A membership as a goal. Yes, I know that the ASU administrators said following their study that the time wasn't right. But they never said it wasn't a goal. Of course being strapped to the UNC system is holding them back. Geo Southern has never hidden their aspirations and neither has JMU. Do you honestly believe these schools are expending the budgets they have on football with nothing more than FCS in their vision? Montana, well they simply seem content based on the lousy options presented them in their region. It could be argued that all of these schools are already I-A programs who are playing down a level.

You somewhat answered your own question in my mind. They are spending the money to become successful on the I-AA level so that things will be ready and "the time right" to make the move up.

[Sly Fox]

The reason given for the timing not being right involved conference affiliation and support from the UNC system (which isn't crazy about another I-A program in the state). If a new league were to be organized then it is likely in most observers eyes that Appy would be ready to leap.

[paradox]

We do need to be opportunistic if something like a smaller 1-A east coast conference starts to develope:

-Marshall
-ECU
-Appalachian
-Delaware
-Liberty
-JMU
-Georgia Southern

possibly UMass, Temple, or Memphis

[Sly Fox]

You wouldn't want too big of a league because it would cut down on the guarantee games.

I wouldn't rule out Richmond returning to I-A either. I know it sounds ridiculous but they have the money and an alumni base that never was happy stepping down to I-AA. There could be a number of other possibilities as well. Youngstown State anyone? The MAC doesn't seem to want them and they might make a decent travel partner for Marshall.

[Eagle Ed]

wow ..... the very conversation I wanted to happen has happened.
Just wanted to talk about neighboring schools and their odds of going 1-A (with us in the mix some day hopefully soon).
Thank-you paradox ... thank-you Sly Fox ... 2 great posters talkin' a little football. Its just a fun discussion...
You guys didn't mention Navy or Army. I've always heard that they would be open to joining a conference (ala Air force, The Citadel, VMI) --- but the right situation just hasn;t come around... Anyway, great conversation.

Now I can go on vacation in peace!

[SuperJon]

We do need to be opportunistic if something like a smaller 1-A east coast conference starts to develope:

-Marshall
-ECU
-Appalachian
-Delaware
-Liberty
-JMU
-Georgia Southern

possibly UMass, Temple, or Memphis

Playing devil's advocate:

Why would those schools leave Conference-USA?
If the current I-AAs won't be in a conference with us on the I-AA level, why do we think they would at the I-A level?

[paradox]

We do need to be opportunistic if something like a smaller 1-A east coast conference starts to develope:

-Marshall
-ECU
-Appalachian
-Delaware
-Liberty
-JMU
-Georgia Southern

possibly UMass, Temple, or Memphis

Playing devil's advocate:

Why would those schools leave Conference-USA?
If the current I-AAs won't be in a conference with us on the I-AA level, why do we think they would at the I-A level?

It's conceivable because it would make geographical and financial sense for both the A's and AA'a.

Right now, JMU and the other 1AA's have too many choices and they can afford to exclude us, but they may not have that luxary in the 1A context because only a few are willing to take the leap over to the next level. We would be in a very favorable geographical location for such a conference and they may in fact need us. In this context, it would be feasible for them to bring us in.

As far as the Conf USA teams go, they would have an opportunity to move into a conference that would be far less taxing as far as travel is concerned. In addition, they would be in a position to rule the conference early on and thus have a pretty decent opportunity to be bowl eligible as well.

[paradox]

I would have added Western Kentucky to the list, but they appear to be headed to the MAC at some point.

[paradox]

I would have added Western Kentucky to the list, but they appear to be headed to the MAC at some point.

...not a done deal by any stretch.

Personally, I'd like to see LU enter into the MAC conversation after this season.

[SuperJon]

You just quoted yourself and then disagreed with yourself.