[Stevev]

I remember SMU and Louisiana Tech going after Larry Jackson. He was thought to be under recruited since he played for a Christian school. Marcus White had Texas recruiting him.

[paradox]

Do you really think a player is just looking at the conference as he makes his selection? Let's see, I could ride the pine for 3 or 4 years at Clemson or I can start immediately and play 4 years at CCU. I choose the ACC!

A true competitor and winner never views himself as "riding the pine." He can't envision that and he never settles for second best.

Also, I agree with Realist. At this level, you have to beat people to the punch. Torrell Martin was an ACC-type player who slipped through the cracks, and Marshall was savy and opportunistic enough to reel him in.

[paradox]

I remember SMU and Louisiana Tech going after Larry Jackson. He was thought to be under recruited since he played for a Christian school. Marcus White had Texas recruiting him.

There is a world of difference between a school making an actual offer versus showing a mere interest. A program may evaluate or show interest in literally hundreds of canidates, but in the end, only a few are seriously considered and made bonified offers.

Again, the name of the game on this level is: find the diamond in the rough and the overlooked talent----a al Greg Marshall.

[TIMSCAR20]

Do you really think a player is just looking at the conference as he makes his selection? Let's see, I could ride the pine for 3 or 4 years at Clemson or I can start immediately and play 4 years at CCU. I choose the ACC!

A true competitor and winner never views himself as "riding the pine." He can't envision that and he never settles for second best.

Also, I agree with Realist. At this level, you have to beat people to the punch. Torrell Martin was an ACC-type player who slipped through the cracks, and Marshall was savy and opportunistic enough to reel him in.

I agree to an extend Paradox but you have to be realistic with your chances and opportunity as well. If a team has 3 players in the same position as you and they are all blue chippers, you may be putting yourself in a competition that you have no chance of winning. Plus you know coaches have "their guy" and if you are not him, sometimes it doesn' t matter how well you play, you will never play. That is the reason most guys transfer. They think they will never get a fair chance at the court regardless of performance. The process is so complex and it is difficult to break it down into one or 2 reasons why a kid chooses the school he chooses.

[paradox]

I can appreciate a player weighing out his potential playing time with a particular program, and that being a part of the recruit's evaluation process.

What has to come into question is how far an individual would drop if they turned down an elite offer. In other words, if you're getting offers from Duke and North Carolina, then you are most likely a consensus top-50 recruit coming out of prep. You may have other options and choose Stanford for academics. If playing time is the issue, then our top tier recruit would have many options within any number of elite programs. He'd have to find the best fit for him. However, they rarely, if ever, fall into the lower conferences, unless under the most unique circumstances. For instance, David Robinson preffered the discipline of the Naval Academy, and had an interest in a military career. Colgate landed Foyle back in the 90's. He was one of the top centers coming out of prep, but opted for a more rigorous academic environment, and chose to avoid the spotlight, which is extremely rare, but it does happen.

[Sly Fox]

Let's not forget that the Admiral was only 6' 6" when he graduated high school or he would've been much more sought after.

[TIMSCAR20]

Let's not forget that the Admiral was only 6' 6" when he graduated high school or he would've been much more sought after.

Correct and Foyle's adopted parents worked at Colgate. Having a relationship in recruiting goes a long way. AD Vassallo is a starter on a decent ACC team and was recruited by a lot of big schools. He wanted to come to Liberty. His coach in HS went to Liberty and his step parents worked at LU. It didn't work out but my point is there are so many unknown variables in recruiting.

[paradox]

Scar:

No one is denying that many variables exist within the recruiting process, especially when the level of play is somewhat equal.

However, I have to question, whether known and established top-tier talent actually pass on scholarships to elite programs and decide to play in the lower conferences instead. I know that this has actually happened as was the case with Foyle and Robinson, but this is extemely rare and under only the most unusual circumstances.

[TIMSCAR20]

Scar:

No one is denying that many variables exist within the recruiting process, especially when the level of play is somewhat equal.

However, I have to question, whether known and established top-tier talent actually pass on scholarships to elite programs and decide to play in the lower conferences instead. I know that this has actually happened as was the case with Foyle and Robinson, but this is extemely rare and under only the most unusual circumstances.

Valid point

[jcmanson]

If only all of us were able to have such great debates, rather than get so heated.

[olldflame]

I think a lot of this is semantics. How rare is rare? How unusual is unusual? It certainly does happen, and I think with the leadership of JB and the extraordinary group of coaches being assembled there is a unique opportunity for LU to provide a viable option for an elite athlete to go in a different direction, and yet still have top notch coaching and work out and play in top notch facilities.

[TIMSCAR20]

I think a lot of this is semantics. How rare is rare? How unusual is unusual? It certainly does happen, and I think with the leadership of JB and the extraordinary group of coaches being assembled there is a unique opportunity for LU to provide a viable option for an elite athlete to go in a different direction, and yet still have top notch coaching and work out and play in top notch facilities.

Coach Dan Manley did it back in he 70's. I wish he would get on here and share his thoughts with us. He has a ton of insight.

[olldflame]

Right SCAR. Guys like George Sweet, Karl Hess, Ed Gomes, Mike Goad and Mark Chafin were D1 caliber ballers who came to play at a school that had absolutely no facilities. Games were played at Jefferson Forest or Amherst high schools, and practice was held wherever a court could be found. I know for a while they practiced at the city armory (between "rasslin" promotions with Rufus R. "Freight Train" Jones).

[grm]

Marshall's got some diamonds right now that were supposed to be at Liberty. How's RMK doing with the recruiting process? I understand that Jason Eaker is doing a great job in that department.

[grm]

Also, I thought Nic Wright did some amazing things, & I believe that he was a Freshman.

[paradox]

Amazing?

The only amazing thing about Wright is how far he dropped into obscurity after he played his way out of D1, following a dismal freshman season at LU. He was definetley one of the bigger busts of the Meyer era.

[SuperJon]

Do you ever say anything positive? Ever?

[paradox]

Just correcting a little misinformation, that's all:lol:

[olldflame]

I have to back dox up on Nic Wright. He was barely a blip on the radar screen. I had pretty much forgotten he went to LU until he was brought up on this thread.

As far as being negative is concerned, dox, sometimes I wish you would be a little LESS positive (ie: more REALISTIC) about the new players like Anderson and Stephene. Overall I think your posts show a lot of knowledge of our program and college basketball in general, and I think predicting so much of an impact for what are still really unknown quantities hurts your credibility somewhat. Having said that, I do hope you are right, because if these guys are good enough to play major minutes ahead of BJ and Justin, that would indicate we have upgraded our talent as well as improved depth.

[paradox]

As long as we are winning, I don't seem them taking very many minutes away from TJ.

Both Anderson and Stephene are expected to add immediate leadership, skill, and versitility to our backcourt. And keep in mind, they are both very committed McKay style players, who were brought in by McKay himself.

Jenkins will add value, but his minutes will be determined by how well he fits in within McKay's disciplined approach. He certainly has the potential to start, and certainly can't be written off at this early stage.

I personally lobbied for more playing time for J-Holland last season, but apparently he was unable to supplant a very mediocre Damien Hubbard. My guess is that J-Holland's window of opportunity probally closed at some point last season.

Smith is a lock at the 3. He's arguably our best ever at that position.

[paradox]

As far as backcourt predictions go, I think it all depends upon McKay's evaluation of where he thinks this team is headed. If he believes that we have a realsitic opportunity to take the Big South, then TJ should be a fixture at the point. If we fall closer to the middle of the Big South pack, then we can expect to see more of Johnny Stephene at the point because it would be more beneficial foe the program in the long run.

I'd say that the two-gaurd spot is wide open at this stage with Stephene, Jenkins, and Anderson, all in the mix. It will be intersting to see how it all plays out. However, there is a creative solution, if McKay is committed all five guards: Bannister, Anderson, Stephene, Jenkins, and Smith. I would go something like this: Bannister-30; Stephene-20; Anderson-20; Jenkins-20; Smith-30.

[paradox]

Right SCAR. Guys like George Sweet, Karl Hess, Ed Gomes, Mike Goad and Mark Chafin were D1 caliber ballers who came to play at a school that had absolutely no facilities. Games were played at Jefferson Forest or Amherst high schools, and practice was held wherever a court could be found. I know for a while they practiced at the city armory (between "rasslin" promotions with Rufus R. "Freight Train" Jones).

Old Flame:

FYI:

Dan Manley's career record at Liberty was only 58-74 with only one winning season. In addition, Liberty's schedule from back then indicates the lowest level of competition at the collegiate level. Although it may have seemed bigger back then, it doesn't seem to hold up in the here and now.

Dale Gibson's 1980 squad achieved a Christian College Association championship. However, that team still managed to lose to St. Paul's of Virginia, Clinch Valley, Bluefield State, Lincoln Memorial, Southern Tech and twice to Tennesee Temple. Although, the championship was a real accomplishment for its time, it hardly qualifies as D-1 caliber. I would say that close wins against King's College and Olivet Nazarene College in the post season would fall far short of anything closely resembling the D-1 level of that era or any other era. But again, a huge accomplishment for that group in the context of the level of competition that Liberty played in at that time. I would take nothing away from them there, except to negate any overstatement that they were a legitimate D-1 level squad.

[TIMSCAR20]

My point was that the guys mentioned were actually recruited by high level division 1 teams but chose Liberty back then without the TV package, facilities, large student body, nice uniforms, the Vines Center, a beautiful FOC to work out in (yes hoops works out there too but I know you know that Dox) and a Nike budget. Liberty is unique and can draw people in that most think we don't have a chance to get. Coach Manley I know you are out there man, back me up. Paradox, your knowledge of Liberty Hoops and access to the media guide and coaching staff obviously means you know me and I know you. Come on man, hit me with a PM to reveal your ID. I promise I will sit on it . I never told anyone who In the know was (Just kidding, I really didn't know who that was). If Libertine had only told me his ID he would still be on here posting. I put it in the vault and will only mention it when I am the Flames Television Network since nobody really listens to me anyway .

[thesportscritic]

I put it in the vault and will only mention it when I am the Flames Television Network since nobody really listens to me anyway .

yeah you suck on TV haha j/k

[TIMSCAR20]

Ouch Critic That hurts