[stokesjokes]

When all you have is a hammer…

[thepostman]

It is always sad when sudden medical events happen, but what good does it do to throw this into the covid discussion so prematurely?

[Purple Haize]

It is always sad when sudden medical events happen, but what good does it do to throw this into the covid discussion so prematurely?

Because there is apparently growing anecdotal evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna shots are having long term implications on otherwise healthy folks. Does this incident rise to that level? I dunno.

[TH Spangler]

It is always sad when sudden medical events happen, but what good does it do to throw this into the covid discussion so prematurely?

Because there is apparently growing anecdotal evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna shots are having long term implications on otherwise healthy folks. Does this incident rise to that level? I dunno.

I really hope not. I shared it here because I value hearing from others. I'm concerned.

[stokesjokes]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

[thepostman]

It is always sad when sudden medical events happen, but what good does it do to throw this into the covid discussion so prematurely?

Because there is apparently growing anecdotal evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna shots are having long term implications on otherwise healthy folks. Does this incident rise to that level? I dunno.

I really hope not. I shared it here because I value hearing from others. I'm concerned.

Do you really hope not??? From my perspective you're just simply throwing crap against the wall hoping it sticks. It's weird behavior.

I do hope you're friend is ok. That is pretty scary regardless of the reason.

[Purple Haize]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

Because the vaccines were aggressively marketed as ‘safe and effective’. I don’t think COVID ever was. Further, despite a mountain of evidence young people were forced to take a vaccine against an illness that would have little if any long term effects on them.
So. Healthy 25 yo w/o vaccine but COVID would be fine. The fact that a bunch of otherwise healthy people are apparently experiencing adverse events is something that should be investigated. Drugs have been taken off the market for less.

[flamehunter]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

Because the vaccine could have been prevented. And it's looking more and more like it really did little good for the most part. Lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know - those who had the vaccine, those who didn't. Some of both groups have died, some of both have suffered long COVID, some of both have only had mild cases, and some of both have not had it at all.
That's why.

[stokesjokes]

Healthy 25 yo w/o vaccine but COVID would be fine. The fact that a bunch of otherwise healthy people are apparently experiencing adverse events is something that should be investigated.

My point is that this is very much not true. A seemingly healthy 25 year old with no vaccine gets COVID and is at risk of permanent heart damage from the infection itself. That’s an established reality well beyond anecdotal speculation about the vax. Anyone who gets COVID is at risk for permanent damage to multiple systems. Those who want to blame the vax for everything seem to ignore that.

[stokesjokes]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

Because the vaccine could have been prevented. And it's looking more and more like it really did little good for the most part. Lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know - those who had the vaccine, those who didn't. Some of both groups have died, some of both have suffered long COVID, some of both have only had mild cases, and some of both have not had it at all.
That's why.

There’s many studies suggesting the opposite. If we had widespread, early adoption when the vaccine was more effective (before the variants made it less effective), hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. I don’t dispute that it’s not as effective no, the time when it would have been most effective has long since passed.

[Purple Haize]

Healthy 25 yo w/o vaccine but COVID would be fine. The fact that a bunch of otherwise healthy people are apparently experiencing adverse events is something that should be investigated.

My point is that this is very much not true. A seemingly healthy 25 year old with no vaccine gets COVID and is at risk of permanent heart damage from the infection itself. That’s an established reality well beyond anecdotal speculation about the vax. Anyone who gets COVID is at risk for permanent damage to multiple systems. Those who want to blame the vax for everything seem to ignore that.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

[Purple Haize]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

Because the vaccine could have been prevented. And it's looking more and more like it really did little good for the most part. Lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know - those who had the vaccine, those who didn't. Some of both groups have died, some of both have suffered long COVID, some of both have only had mild cases, and some of both have not had it at all.
That's why.

There’s many studies suggesting the opposite. If we had widespread, early adoption when the vaccine was more effective (before the variants made it less effective), hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. I don’t dispute that it’s not as effective no, the time when it would have been most effective has long since passed.

This data suggests otherwise. I don’t understand the near militant resistance into investigating these types of numbers.

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

[stokesjokes]

Healthy 25 yo w/o vaccine but COVID would be fine. The fact that a bunch of otherwise healthy people are apparently experiencing adverse events is something that should be investigated.

My point is that this is very much not true. A seemingly healthy 25 year old with no vaccine gets COVID and is at risk of permanent heart damage from the infection itself. That’s an established reality well beyond anecdotal speculation about the vax. Anyone who gets COVID is at risk for permanent damage to multiple systems. Those who want to blame the vax for everything seem to ignore that.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

[stokesjokes]

Because the vaccine could have been prevented. And it's looking more and more like it really did little good for the most part. Lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know - those who had the vaccine, those who didn't. Some of both groups have died, some of both have suffered long COVID, some of both have only had mild cases, and some of both have not had it at all.
That's why.

There’s many studies suggesting the opposite. If we had widespread, early adoption when the vaccine was more effective (before the variants made it less effective), hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. I don’t dispute that it’s not as effective no, the time when it would have been most effective has long since passed.

This data suggests otherwise. I don’t understand the near militant resistance into investigating these types of numbers.

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

What am I supposed to be looking at here?

[LU 57]

But we have much better evidence that COVID itself can cause long-term heart damage and chronic conditions, why is the speculation only ever about the vaccine?

Because the vaccine could have been prevented. And it's looking more and more like it really did little good for the most part. Lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know - those who had the vaccine, those who didn't. Some of both groups have died, some of both have suffered long COVID, some of both have only had mild cases, and some of both have not had it at all.
That's why.

There’s many studies suggesting the opposite. If we had widespread, early adoption when the vaccine was more effective (before the variants made it less effective), hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. I don’t dispute that it’s not as effective no, the time when it would have been most effective has long since passed.

Even Bill Gates said the vaccines did not work as advertised.

It amazes me that you will not even consider that the vaxes are contributing to the massive increase in excess death.

That’s a lot of faith in a company (and an industry) with such a checkered past as Pfizer.

[LU 57]

My point is that this is very much not true. A seemingly healthy 25 year old with no vaccine gets COVID and is at risk of permanent heart damage from the infection itself. That’s an established reality well beyond anecdotal speculation about the vax. Anyone who gets COVID is at risk for permanent damage to multiple systems. Those who want to blame the vax for everything seem to ignore that.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

Do you know of even one athlete (or otherwise young and healthy person) that has either died, had a heart attack or a stroke that came out as unvaccinated? I have not heard of any.

[Purple Haize]

My point is that this is very much not true. A seemingly healthy 25 year old with no vaccine gets COVID and is at risk of permanent heart damage from the infection itself. That’s an established reality well beyond anecdotal speculation about the vax. Anyone who gets COVID is at risk for permanent damage to multiple systems. Those who want to blame the vax for everything seem to ignore that.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

I’ve had COVID twice. My heart is fine. COULD COVID cause heart damage? Sure. So could pneumonia.
It’s that ‘tenuous’ connection that needs to be looked at. Why? Because these vaccines were aggressively marketed as ‘safe and effective’. We already know they are not as effective as they thought. Now events are unfolding that put the safety into question.

[LU 57]

Interesting piece:

https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scien ... 6630?amp=1

[Purple Haize]

There’s many studies suggesting the opposite. If we had widespread, early adoption when the vaccine was more effective (before the variants made it less effective), hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. I don’t dispute that it’s not as effective no, the time when it would have been most effective has long since passed.

This data suggests otherwise. I don’t understand the near militant resistance into investigating these types of numbers.

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

What am I supposed to be looking at here?

Highly vaccinated and early adopting countryside’s and the excess death rate post vaccine.

[Purple Haize]

Interesting piece:

https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scien ... 6630?amp=1

Interesting study. And it gets at the “heart” of the matter

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z

[thepostman]

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

I’ve had COVID twice. My heart is fine. COULD COVID cause heart damage? Sure. So could pneumonia.
It’s that ‘tenuous’ connection that needs to be looked at. Why? Because these vaccines were aggressively marketed as ‘safe and effective’. We already know they are not as effective as they thought. Now events are unfolding that put the safety into question.

Wait so if I've had the vaccine and haven't dropped dead then I shokld dismiss any and all studies? Right?

[stokesjokes]

I’m sorry but you are wrong. While they are at risk it is no more risk than coming down with pneumonia.
You always have to weigh risk/benefit in these situations. An absolutely legitimate question can be raised about that in the younger population. Having had COVID and living with someone who had it , I have 0 desire to get another shot. I would not have gotten one to begin with other than I wanted to travel. But having gotten through COVID and having nasty SE’s with the shot, neither myself nor people in my household will be getting another. We also just hope we don’t see any long term effects or sudden fatal ones pop up from the vaccine

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

Do you know of even one athlete (or otherwise young and healthy person) that has either died, had a heart attack or a stroke that came out as unvaccinated? I have not heard of any.

I have never seen any reports of an athlete's death that includes vaccination status either way, only speculation. I do have some stats on post-COVID heart conditions:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0

Here's myocarditis rates for student athletes post-COVID, pre-vaccine:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33443537/

Heart attack and stroke deaths rose sharply in 2020, before the vaccine was available:
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2023/01/2 ... 9-pandemic


and PH, I can't make heads or tails of that Euromomo site, but here's a fun read from the good ol' US of A:
https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512

[stokesjokes]

I’ve had COVID twice. My heart is fine.

So you're saying you've had the vaccine and your heart is fine?

[Purple Haize]

I’ve had COVID twice. My heart is fine.

So you're saying you've had the vaccine and your heart is fine?

Had COVID before the vaccine and again about a year later after my second shot. I did JnJ so I’m not as worried because they already pulled it once, looked at the risk and put it back out there.

[Purple Haize]

Wrong about what? Does COVID not cause heart damage? And if you were to find out you had permanent heart damage, how would you know it was the vaccine and not your COVID infection? We’ve got a well established connection for one and a tenuous connection for the other.

I’ve had COVID twice. My heart is fine. COULD COVID cause heart damage? Sure. So could pneumonia.
It’s that ‘tenuous’ connection that needs to be looked at. Why? Because these vaccines were aggressively marketed as ‘safe and effective’. We already know they are not as effective as they thought. Now events are unfolding that put the safety into question.

Wait so if I've had the vaccine and haven't dropped dead then I shokld dismiss any and all studies? Right?

If you remember the rhetoric of the COVID days everyone was going to die of COVID. Then everyone was going to die of COVID if they didn’t get the vaccine and medical care should only be reserved for those who did. Then you were killing your Granny and your neighbor if you did t get the shot, even though they got the shot
Now, the vaccine is supposed to ‘lessen the effects’ of COVID but that cardiovascular or pulmonary problem you might have isn’t a big deal…l.cause you got vaccinated