If you want to talk ASUN smack or ramble ad nauseum about your favorite pro or major college teams, this is the place to let it rip.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

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By JCS Flames Fan 31
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#632123
Liberty22 wrote: September 21st, 2021, 4:56 pm CUSA is a no from me all day long. Consistently winning the MBB autobid to the tourney is incredible exposure for us. Who cares if our competition upgrades slightly across the board by going CUSA. Being independent for football and dominating a weak league (MBB) just puts us in good realignment position with potential to have an incredible future like BYU. Go to CUSA and you have downgraded football for a small tick of an upgrade (debatable) for other sports. AAC or beyond or stay independent and dominate your league getting national exposure at the tourneys is incredible. MBB Tourney appearances and runs don't get poo poo'd on when you're a cinderella when it comes to your league. You make it and show you belong. It's fantastic exposure so who cares who you beat to get there.
I'm 100% with you on this, CUSA only has UAB, Marshall and maybe Charlotte and Mid Tenn that are respectable in Football at this point and their B-ball is not an upgrade over ASUN. I stay the course we're on now over them, i'd rather been in the sun belt than the geographic logistical nightmare that is CUSA. With that being said our schedule this year makes it look like we are in the CUSA already with ODU, Mid Tenn and UAB in basically consecutive weeks :lol:
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By Ill flame
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#632126
It's only a matter of time before the other asun schools decide they don't want to compete against our resources anymore. Where do we go when that happens?
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By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#632131
Ill flame wrote: September 21st, 2021, 10:40 pm It's only a matter of time before the other asun schools decide they don't want to compete against our resources anymore. Where do we go when that happens?
I'm sure it's happening already, but they can't just boot us for that. The BSC leveraged our move to FBS to make us a second class citizen not allowed to compete for the Sasser cup, which presured us to leave for the ASUN. I'm pretty sure our being FBS in football is "baked into the cake" in our agreement with the ASUN, so they can't do that. I believe the conference administration is happy to have us around to elevate their profile. Individual schools are another matter. We do need to be pro-active in looking for better options, not to make the ASUN schools happy, but because it's what is best for Liberty. I would think the AAC is the best (somewhat) realistic option right now, but IMHO if we were to get a chance to join the A10 and stay indy in football, we should jump at it.
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By Kricket
Registration Days Posts
#632135
To me, the A 10 is almost ideal as we would have a good basketball setup and Indy for football would allow us flexibility in scheduling tougher as we grow. There's a few schools in the A10 that definitely wouldn't like us as conference mates. George Washington comes to mind.

Do you think the A 10 could be realistic?
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#632139
ballcoach15 wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 7:49 am Liberty should never acknowledge that A10 exists. It's a one sport conference.
You seem to have this idea that if you keep repeating the same unsubstantiated thing over and over, it will somehow be true.

Besides being waaaaaay better in basketball, the A10's conference RPI in baseball is better than the ASUN's, and while I couldn't find a conference RPI for softball, George Washington is rated higher than any ASUN team not named Liberty. Safe to say if you put us in there they are better than the ASUN in softball too.
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By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#632143
Focusing on the favorite sport of the guy who says the A10 is a "one sport league", after doing a bit of research, the bottom of the A10 in softball is in fact awful, which would pull them down to a bit below the ASUN even if they had us. Does anyone think it makes a significant difference whether the bottom teams in a conference are awful or just bad? It has zero effect on anything important. Put LU in the A10 and the average RPI of their top 4 would be 73, compared to 98 for the ASUN. That's SOFTBALL ballcoach. But we all know the real reasons you would be against the A10 are that it would mean no more conference road trips to FL and you hate anything North of Madison Heights.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#632147
Ill flame wrote: September 21st, 2021, 4:29 pm Where is all this Pac 12 expansion talk coming from? Didn't they already announce in no uncertain terms they won't be expanding?
They announced that they would not be expanding right now. It was clear that their new commish wanted TCU & Houston but he couldn't get enough votes at that stage to invite them in. Much like the Big XII, the West Coasters left it hanging that they did not rule out expansion moving forward. It would just have to be the right fit.

Let the record show that I am not lobbying on behalf of CUSA, but I do feel there is value in assessing it as a potential option over our current Indy/ASUN situation. Let's start with the current league lineup that commissioner Judy MacLeod leads:

  • Charlotte
  • FAU
  • FIU
  • Louisiana Tech
  • Marshall
  • MTSU
  • North Texas
  • ODU
  • Rice
  • Southern Miss
  • UAB
  • UTEP
  • UTSA
  • WKU


Image

I think we can all agree that it is a mess. Mismatched programs and geography. But let's start clicking through the rumored next dominoes that could fall:

AAC:
The expectation that the AAC will take Air Force & Colorado State with two other schools seems to be a consensus. One of those two other schools is most likely to be UAB. Then the questions becomes which school fills that final slot. Most pundits seem to be pointing toward either Rice, UTSA or FAU.

MWC:
The next conference that will respond is expected to be the Mountain West after losing their Colorado members. The general consensus seems to be that the school will mak a move to Texas where the population growth and potential recruits are located. The question becomes do they take just two to replace their losses or go all in with a four school group. Since SMU is holding out for the next Big XII expansion along with Mmphis, the MWC would likely be targeting UTEP, UNT, Rice & UTSA (and possibly Texas State from Sun Belt if any of their preferred choices passed).

Sun Belt:
Recognizing a grand opportunity to upgrade within their footprint, the Belt is rumored to coveting USM and potentially LaTech. Southern Miss seems like a lock if the Belt decides to add a pair. LaTech has always felt above their cousins in Lafayette and wanted to be in a league above them as well as lowly ULM. Recognizing that they have nowhere to move up and without access to Texas they might relent and "lower" themselves into the Belt. Every scenario indicates that the non-football Belt schools are moving along so LaTech's connections to DFW & Little Rock will also vanish. In other words, they would be on an island is left in CUSA . That likely would be enough to push them to the Belt.

In other words, if all of these hypotheticals were to come to pass, then suddenly you begin to see an Appalachian conference begin to emerge with a Florida school or two along for the ride:

Charlotte
FAU(?)
FIU
Marshall
MTSU
ODU
WKU


Suddenly it becomes easier to envision Liberty in the middle of that geography with driveable road games from Lynchburg aplenty. And what if the regional nature of this league were enough to attract App State & Coastal (or even JMU) to join in on the fun?

Now a slew of hypotheticals would have to fall into place for this to be a potential scenario. But it is not crazy talk at this stage. Then the followup question would be whether or not this CUSA 3.0 would be attractive enough for us to give up independence and ASUN auto bids? I think that is a legitimate discussion.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#632148
Kricket wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 7:26 am To me, the A 10 is almost ideal as we would have a good basketball setup and Indy for football would allow us flexibility in scheduling tougher as we grow. There's a few schools in the A10 that definitely wouldn't like us as conference mates. George Washington comes to mind.

Do you think the A 10 could be realistic?
Going back to the '80s, the A10 was always our dream conference before FBS came into play. It is my understanding that Doc himself lobbied those Catholic schools to consider us to no avail. Much like the AAC presidents looking down their noses at our lack of R1 status, the core leadership of A10 presidents are made up primarily of Catholic priests who consider us backwoods Fundies who should never be perceived as peers. I suspect now that we have what they would perceive as a massive budget that none of the schools could match, it would make it even harder for them to invite us into their fold.
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By ballcoach15
Posts
#632152
olldflame wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 8:41 am Focusing on the favorite sport of the guy who says the A10 is a "one sport league", after doing a bit of research, the bottom of the A10 in softball is in fact awful, which would pull them down to a bit below the ASUN even if they had us. Does anyone think it makes a significant difference whether the bottom teams in a conference are awful or just bad? It has zero effect on anything important. Put LU in the A10 and the average RPI of their top 4 would be 73, compared to 98 for the ASUN. That's SOFTBALL ballcoach. But we all know the real reasons you would be against the A10 are that it would mean no more conference road trips to FL and you hate anything North of Madison Heights.
With the new schools that have been added to ASUN, the conference will be improved in every sport.
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By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#632159
ballcoach15 wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 10:22 am
olldflame wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 8:41 am Focusing on the favorite sport of the guy who says the A10 is a "one sport league", after doing a bit of research, the bottom of the A10 in softball is in fact awful, which would pull them down to a bit below the ASUN even if they had us. Does anyone think it makes a significant difference whether the bottom teams in a conference are awful or just bad? It has zero effect on anything important. Put LU in the A10 and the average RPI of their top 4 would be 73, compared to 98 for the ASUN. That's SOFTBALL ballcoach. But we all know the real reasons you would be against the A10 are that it would mean no more conference road trips to FL and you hate anything North of Madison Heights.
With the new schools that have been added to ASUN, the conference will be improved in every sport.
You say that based on what? If you have done research, show your work. :fineprint
Looking at softball again, EKU and Central Akansas will help a bit. Jacksonville St. will largely offset that.
By ballcoach15
Posts
#632162
Jacksonville State has a good softball program, they were somewhat down last season (24-25), and went 36-15 in 2019. Austin Peay was 27-16 last season and 33-22 in 2019.
In the 2022 season, I think every ASUN softball team will be improved over 2021 season, with the exception of FGCU, but I'm not sure about them.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#632174
ballcoach15 wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 2:08 pm Jacksonville State has a good softball program, they were somewhat down last season (24-25), and went 36-15 in 2019. Austin Peay was 27-16 last season and 33-22 in 2019.
In the 2022 season, I think every ASUN softball team will be improved over 2021 season, with the exception of FGCU, but I'm not sure about them.
Everybody can't be better. That's not how sports works.
In any event, my point isn't whether the ASUN or A10 are better in softball. My point is that your oft-repeated and totally unfounded claim that the A10 is a "one sport league" is a huge crock. They may be weaker in some sports than the ASUN, but they are as strong or stronger in others, and they are on a whole different level in MBB, which is far and away the most important sport after football where the vast majority of fans are concerned.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#632186
IMHO, The moment that Liberty commits to a non-power 5 conference, we would automatically pigeon hole ourselves into a sub par league and considerably lower our ceiling. By remaining Independent and following the current script of scheduling 2 or 3 P-5's and the rest G-5's and Sun Belt/C-USA's we leave open the door to recruits and fans alike that we going after the best while still holding the cards to schedule regional games within driving distance.
I hate to bring up this example, but my alma mater is a prime example. In the80's and 90's, ECU packed the stadium in Greenville and had a great recruiting card by being an Independent and scheduling the likes of Miami, Syracuse, West Virginia, UNC, N.C. State, Wake Forest, Duke, Florida, Florida State, Illinois, Virginia Tech, South Carolina, etc. with regional winnable games mixed in. Playing anyone, anywhere was the mantra and recruits and the media noticed. Once ECU joined Conference USA they were locked into games with teams that the fan base didn't care about and didn't help them on a National level. Even two conference championships with Skip Holtz failed to bring national respect. The cadre of teams in the AAC also failed to excite the fans and recruits. Only Lincoln Riley's offense stirred the pot briefly as no one cared about games with Tulane, Temple, Tulsa, South Florida or even Cincinnati or Memphis. Why on earth would we want to lock us into a sub par conference when Ian has shown the ability to do what he has done in such a short time. Ritchie doesn't need that kind of conference to gain national prominence MBB, so why lower the football ceiling by signing on with a less than top tier football conference?
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By LUOrange
Posts
#632187
1. The ASUN is much better now with APSU, EKU, JSU & UCA. But it's still not good enough for us and we need out at the first best option. I'd also think that the new additions makes it very unlikely for the ASUN to expel us. And as much as I hate being in the ASUN, Gumball appreciates us and said that the Conference wouldn't expel any member for taking their football FBS, for dropping football, or refusing to add football. I believe the possible FBS Indy or ASUN FBS aspirations are why EKU, JSU & UCA joined.
2. If possible, the A10/Indy would ne the best option after a P5 invite. After football, MBB is what matters and the A10 with Davidson, GMU, GWU, UR & VCU speaks for itself.
4. Sly's remaining CUSA along with JMU is almost as good as what's left with the AAC, and if Appy and the Chickens tagged along it may be better. Sly's CUSA or the AAC are without question a huge upgrade over the ASUN. We also know that the next P5/B12 callups will be Memphis, Boise and USF- which would further weaken the AAc. Heck it'd probably fall apart.
5. I don't believe that joining any conference that is not P5 is a deathblow or will trap us for in perpetuity. It'd just be another rung, and we're in the ASUN. Could it really get much worse?
6. McCaw knows what he's doing, and I believe he's been working on something or has actionable plans in place. I'll trust his wisdom for noow, even if it means the ASUN for longer than I'd like.
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By Ill flame
Posts
#632190
Racenut wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 11:06 pm IMHO, The moment that Liberty commits to a non-power 5 conference, we would automatically pigeon hole ourselves into a sub par league and considerably lower our ceiling. By remaining Independent and following the current script of scheduling 2 or 3 P-5's and the rest G-5's and Sun Belt/C-USA's we leave open the door to recruits and fans alike that we going after the best while still holding the cards to schedule regional games within driving distance.
I hate to bring up this example, but my alma mater is a prime example. In the80's and 90's, ECU packed the stadium in Greenville and had a great recruiting card by being an Independent and scheduling the likes of Miami, Syracuse, West Virginia, UNC, N.C. State, Wake Forest, Duke, Florida, Florida State, Illinois, Virginia Tech, South Carolina, etc. with regional winnable games mixed in. Playing anyone, anywhere was the mantra and recruits and the media noticed. Once ECU joined Conference USA they were locked into games with teams that the fan base didn't care about and didn't help them on a National level. Even two conference championships with Skip Holtz failed to bring national respect. The cadre of teams in the AAC also failed to excite the fans and recruits. Only Lincoln Riley's offense stirred the pot briefly as no one cared about games with Tulane, Temple, Tulsa, South Florida or even Cincinnati or Memphis. Why on earth would we want to lock us into a sub par conference when Ian has shown the ability to do what he has done in such a short time. Ritchie doesn't need that kind of conference to gain national prominence MBB, so why lower the football ceiling by signing on with a less than top tier football conference?
Looking at our 2024 schedule since it's the last full one and presumably closer to schedules we can expect than our current one. We have 2 P5s (counting UCF) and 3 regional G5s. The rest are fcs, Independents or G5s out of our region.

On the other hand if we joined c-usa we would likely have a nonconference schedule of 2 P5s, a regional G5 (usually coastal) and a FCS school. If you include those with the 5 regional G5s we would play every year in our division, that looks like a more appealing schedule to fans on paper. Not to mention a potential conference championship game.

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate but let's not pretend like our current schedules are super exciting for our fans. I believe our independent schedule can and will get better but none of these regional games are guaranteed like they would be in a conference.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#632196
You must be flexible to be able to schedule P-5's and conference affiliation locks you out of 8 or more dates a year. IMO Army, Coastal, Appalachian, Marshall, BYU and even Southern Miss (historically) are equivalent to most of what's left in the AAC and definitely C-USA and we can schedule them without conference affiliation. If we are locked into a conference, we are have more limited dates and less flexibility to schedule P-5 games. Some of our future schedules are better than others now, but come on, UNC, UVA, Arkansas, Duke, Wake, BYU (soon to be P-5), Ole Miss, Va Tech, Auburn, Syracuse, who knows if we could have scheduled all these great games with the limitations of a conference schedule. Dog teams that we play are no worse than the bottom tier teams of the AAC and C-USA. The National perception of Liberty as an independent > than Liberty as a non P-5 conference team. Recruits will think the same thing as well. Ask BYU.
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By tyndal23
Posts
#632198
Racenut wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 10:42 am You must be flexible to be able to schedule P-5's and conference affiliation locks you out of 8 or more dates a year. IMO Army, Coastal, Appalachian, Marshall, BYU and even Southern Miss (historically) are equivalent to most of what's left in the AAC and definitely C-USA and we can schedule them without conference affiliation. If we are locked into a conference, we are have more limited dates and less flexibility to schedule P-5 games. Some of our future schedules are better than others now, but come on, UNC, UVA, Arkansas, Duke, Wake, BYU (soon to be P-5), Ole Miss, Va Tech, Auburn, Syracuse, who knows if we could have scheduled all these great games with the limitations of a conference schedule. Dog teams that we play are no worse than the bottom tier teams of the AAC and C-USA. The National perception of Liberty as an independent > than Liberty as a non P-5 conference team. Recruits will think the same thing as well. Ask BYU.
If you are willing to schedule P5 as an Indie you can schedule 6-7
If you want to schedule P5 as a G5, you can schedule 4. Here is ECU 2008 schedule. ( impressive )
https://fbschedules.com/ncaa-2008/team/east-carolina
By tyndal23
Posts
#632208
Racenut wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 11:08 am Ancient history, landscape a lot different 13 years later.
What changed for ECU scheduling philosophy and why couldn’t LU emulate their 08 schedule if they felt they wanted to ? Teams scheduled ECU long after they were a threat to P5 schools and people on here keep saying “too hard” / no one will schedule Liberty. ECU did it both as an Independent and as a Conference member. I don’t think it is too hard, especially with one less home game. I think the “want” to isn’t there for fear of scheduling too hard. Freeze openly stated More G5 on schedule and less G5 and I think Ian has obliged. Nothing to do with “too hard” to schedule. So now it comes down to do you want to join a crappy G5 league for chance at playoff or do you want to go BYU route? I am open to either - just disagree that Indie P5 level scheduling can’t be done. There may very well be many more games available if all P5 go to 8 conference games.
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By Class of 20Something
Posts
#632210
We need to remember ceilings and floors. Going to a subpar G5 conference does limit the ceiling but it also raises the floor for all sports. The American or a regionally aligned Appalachian conference would both mean greater chances for all teams to compete via multi bid leagues, football benefits from familiarity and rivalry, and frankly the fan experience will get better because we will show up better for those teams.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#632212
While the pre-P-5/G-5 era posed certain challenges, there was the precept that conferences were conferences, albeit some were stronger than others and the title of best changed on a yearly basis.
The Big East with Pitt, West Virginia, Miami (Fla) etc. could have laid a claim over the old traditional schools for that title and if Penn State would have been allowed to join that conference (they were denied) the current landscape may have been much different. ECU coveted an invite but were thwarted by Louisville and Howard Schellenberger. Today the distinction between P-5 and G-5 is almost to the point of FBS to FCS.
I have no doubt that Liberty could be successful as a conference member or independent, but the trajectory that this Coach and this AD has put us in has created a unique opportunity. As long as "Beer Bryant" supporters don't get in the way and "help" to get good coaches and good AD'S fired ala ECU, the ceiling is unbelievable. In my mind, independence until the right opportunity comes along is the best route. The patience that Notre Dame and BYU have shown through the years has proven that.
God has shown the country that Liberty is a place of grace and redemption and that you can accomplish anything on the mountain that you can at a secular school. Being mired in a sub-par conference (particularly one that has shunned us in the past) does nothing but lump us in with a bunch of "also rans", and limits our growth by putting us in a mediocre category.
All that said, I'm in either way, just an opinion.
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