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#624518
Purple Haize wrote: April 6th, 2021, 7:26 am
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 5th, 2021, 9:04 am Over 1/3 of the faculty have most of their advanced degrees from Liberty. We cannot be a world leader in theology, apologetics, and evangelism when we do not have diversity in experience, training, and approach.

Forget skin color. This right here is LU’s biggest Diversity problem
You aren’t wrong at all. When I say diversity, I want it in all areas. Diversity in experience and background is just as - if not more - important as diversity in skin color. And as you said in a different post, if we get diversity in background and experience, that will be the open door to fixing the other pieces.
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#624519
Purple Haize wrote: April 6th, 2021, 7:26 am
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 5th, 2021, 9:04 am Over 1/3 of the faculty have most of their advanced degrees from Liberty. We cannot be a world leader in theology, apologetics, and evangelism when we do not have diversity in experience, training, and approach.

Forget skin color. This right here is LU’s biggest Diversity problem
This is directly related to one of the always-brought-up culture problems: nepotism. It’s standard at all levels to hire people you know instead of most qualified. Anyone who has ever tried to get a job there can tell you that. No connections, no call backs.

There is a push among faculty who don’t yet have terminal degrees to seek outside degrees, but that’s complicated by having to choose between getting the free degree with academic in-breeding or going into debt to get the outside degree.
#624522
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:09 am What percentage of our faculty doesn’t have a terminal degree?
I do not know about total percentage, but here is an example. The online chair for the business department is board member Anthony Beckles. He has two degrees from LU and no doctorate. This is an example of the academic inbreeding at LU and another individual lacking proper academic credentials for the position. He does have substantial experience and I am sure he is a quality administrator and instructor, however similar positions at other schools require an earned doctorate.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#624523
Poor example. MBA is a terminal degree in business.

But I do feel the cronyism component. To be clear, we have some amazing faculty and staff at LU. But unfortunately the system at the top of the house is a hindrance to our school improving.

Personal kingdom building has to give way to building His Kingdom. And the acting/permanent president is the shining example of that state right now.
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#624524
Sly Fox wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:53 am Poor example. MBA is a terminal degree in business.
No offense Sly, but an MBA is not considered a terminal degree. A DBA or PhD would be appropriate for a business chair or dean.

Look at all the chairs & directors in the business program https://www.liberty.edu/business/faculty/ of the 13 people listed, 11 are listed as "Dr".
#624525
Whatisthetruth wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:57 amLook at all the chairs & directors in the business program https://www.liberty.edu/business/faculty/ of the 13 people listed, 11 are listed as "Dr".
Since you posted that link, I wanted to look at the makeup of the business school staff/faculty. Of the 56 people on that page, only 3 (5%) are minorities. I'm not pushing for diversity for the sake of diversity, but if we want to be a multi-cultural school (and the Gospel is inherently multi-cultural), then we have to have representation within our staff. If a minority student (again 49% of Gen Z) is interested in a business degree but doesn't see anyone who looks like them amongst the faculty, they're not going to be as likely to choose us over someone else.

This idea of representation isn't just a Liberty issue. It's a Christian school issue in general. We could dive into all the issues surrounding that, but at the end of the day, I can think of nothing more strategic to the Gospel than being a place where minority Christians feel comfortable getting trained to be explicitly Christian leaders within their communities.
#624527
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:19 pm
Whatisthetruth wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:57 amLook at all the chairs & directors in the business program https://www.liberty.edu/business/faculty/ of the 13 people listed, 11 are listed as "Dr".
Since you posted that link, I wanted to look at the makeup of the business school staff/faculty. Of the 56 people on that page, only 3 (5%) are minorities. I'm not pushing for diversity for the sake of diversity, but if we want to be a multi-cultural school (and the Gospel is inherently multi-cultural), then we have to have representation within our staff. If a minority student (again 49% of Gen Z) is interested in a business degree but doesn't see anyone who looks like them amongst the faculty, they're not going to be as likely to choose us over someone else.

This idea of representation isn't just a Liberty issue. It's a Christian school issue in general. We could dive into all the issues surrounding that, but at the end of the day, I can think of nothing more strategic to the Gospel than being a place where minority Christians feel comfortable getting trained to be explicitly Christian leaders within their communities.
I thought Turner Gill was an outstanding Liberty coach and leader. He loved his players on and off the field. But some-one just didn't think he was good enough.

You're a peice of work buddy :lol:
#624528
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:19 pm
Whatisthetruth wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:57 amLook at all the chairs & directors in the business program https://www.liberty.edu/business/faculty/ of the 13 people listed, 11 are listed as "Dr".
Since you posted that link, I wanted to look at the makeup of the business school staff/faculty. Of the 56 people on that page, only 3 (5%) are minorities. I'm not pushing for diversity for the sake of diversity, but if we want to be a multi-cultural school (and the Gospel is inherently multi-cultural), then we have to have representation within our staff. If a minority student (again 49% of Gen Z) is interested in a business degree but doesn't see anyone who looks like them amongst the faculty, they're not going to be as likely to choose us over someone else.

This idea of representation isn't just a Liberty issue. It's a Christian school issue in general. We could dive into all the issues surrounding that, but at the end of the day, I can think of nothing more strategic to the Gospel than being a place where minority Christians feel comfortable getting trained to be explicitly Christian leaders within their communities.
Maybe the answer is that we set quotas for students and professors to make sure everyone gets a professor that looks like them? Better yet maybe we can start a black school of business with all black professors, or an American Indian school of business with all American Indian professors.
As a society, we continue to be hung up on race as a priority. I can think of nothing that divides people more than that. Maybe we should take all of the white missionaries off the field. Maybe the native people of the countries where they serve, would be more likely to come hear a missionary that looks like them. :roll:
Strategic to the Gospel? What is that?
#624529
Jonathan Carone wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:19 pm
Whatisthetruth wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:57 amLook at all the chairs & directors in the business program https://www.liberty.edu/business/faculty/ of the 13 people listed, 11 are listed as "Dr".
Since you posted that link, I wanted to look at the makeup of the business school staff/faculty. Of the 56 people on that page, only 3 (5%) are minorities. I'm not pushing for diversity for the sake of diversity, but if we want to be a multi-cultural school (and the Gospel is inherently multi-cultural), then we have to have representation within our staff. If a minority student (again 49% of Gen Z) is interested in a business degree but doesn't see anyone who looks like them amongst the faculty, they're not going to be as likely to choose us over someone else.

This idea of representation isn't just a Liberty issue. It's a Christian school issue in general. We could dive into all the issues surrounding that, but at the end of the day, I can think of nothing more strategic to the Gospel than being a place where minority Christians feel comfortable getting trained to be explicitly Christian leaders within their communities.
For your complaint to have any merit you need to know how many Minorities have the required credentials to be considered then the added step of being the right fit for LU. You can scream “We need Minorities” all you want, but that doesn’t mean they are available
Case in point. Manager in my Company had 2 openings. Was highly encouraged to make a Diversity Hire. He was totally fine with it. One slight, tiny, small problem. He had 0 applicants that fit the Bill other than “Female”. Of which he had hired 3 previously. So what is to be done
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#624530
It’s a chicken and egg situation. There have to be qualified minorities to fill the position while we have to create an environment where they feel they could thrive as professors. We can only control one side of that situation and I’d argue the current culture from our leadership doesn’t create that environment.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#624531
It has been interesting the last three days to look at the original question put forth and see the direction the conversation has taken everyone. I had thought of "Culture" in terms of student attitudes and the interpretations of social issues of the day. Perhaps even how the University would frame them in the context of the mission of training Champions for Christ. I was somewhat surprised to see the emphasis go in the direction of treatment, retention and the qualifications of faculty and how Liberty is perceived compared to other Christian Universities and even secular schools to some extent. The make up and qualifications of the Board also came into question and immediate call for diversity was echoed.
Is this really an issue or is it part of the on-going narrative that paints all conservatives as the racist boogeymen?
Would a Thomas Sowell, a Ben Carson, a Clarence Thomas, a Condoleezza Rice or even a Candace Owens or Tim Scott satisfy the liberal criteria set forth to make the staff and leadership more diverse? Probably not.
Would this signal a shift in "Culture"? I doubt it.
While the introduction any of these distinguished individuals would certainly elevate Liberty's perception in the conservative community, would it do anything to drastically change the "Culture" at Liberty? I think not. Would curriculum change or major doctrinal changes be entertained? Probably not. Would it change Liberty's reputation in the liberal, woke culture that dominates the mainstream media and celebrity squawk boxes? Not in the least.
So maybe the question really becomes, "Does Liberty need to become more liberal in it's culture? "
I believe that true Christians would applaud the addition of conservative minority Professors and Board members at Liberty if they are the most qualified.
I believe this would enhance the mission. Equal consideration must be extended to all. But those on this board who decry the presence of lesser qualified current faculty cannot come back and change criteria just for aesthetics. Hiring a set percentage of any group, regardless of qualifications is the essence of woke liberalism, and THAT would certainly Change the Culture IMHO.
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#624533
The race thing has taken a life of its own and certainly wasn't my intention. The point is, the board is in serious need of an overhaul. Their lack of transparency since Jr was let go combined with the fact they have given Prevo the same kind of unchecked power that created the Jr monster, shows to me that lessons weren't learned. So we can keep circling back to race and liberal politics all we want but nobody is saying Liberty needs to somehow forsake its mission in the name of diversity. The leadership at Liberty has created themselves an echo chamber of sorts and it in turn has created a somewhat toxic culture.

God is still doing great things at Liberty because He is God. That is what he does. That doesn't mean we still shouldn't be aiming to get better as an institution. Not being transparent and bringing back Jerry Vines to the board, a man with a history of covering up sexual assault isn't an indication that we are actually getting better. We simply are deploying the tactics shaddy ministries use in covering things up. That is why I want to see culture change at the very top. It has nothing to do with racial quotas or giving into the "liberal left" .

This is an attitude that is pretty common in the Liberty community which is a big reason I don't believe much will actually change and the independent investigation has been a complete farce up to this point.
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#624535
Racenut wrote: April 7th, 2021, 1:53 am While the introduction any of these distinguished individuals would certainly elevate Liberty's perception in the conservative community, would it do anything to drastically change the "Culture" at Liberty? I think not. Would curriculum change or major doctrinal changes be entertained? Probably not. Would it change Liberty's reputation in the liberal, woke culture that dominates the mainstream media and celebrity squawk boxes? Not in the least.
I wanted to start my response to your post with this idea. I think we are way too worried about how we appear to the left and the right of the political spectrum. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Prevo has told people he was worried about the conservative watchdog groups and how that was influencing the things he did/said. That's a problem.

I am far less concerned how we appear to people in the political world and much more concerned with how we appear to the Christians of the world, specifically the generation who is about to enter college.

Racenut wrote: April 7th, 2021, 1:53 amI was somewhat surprised to see the emphasis go in the direction of treatment, retention and the qualifications of faculty and how Liberty is perceived compared to other Christian Universities and even secular schools to some extent. The make up and qualifications of the Board also came into question and immediate call for diversity was echoed.
Is this really an issue or is it part of the on-going narrative that paints all conservatives as the racist boogeymen?
There are two things at play here: diversity and representation. I think they're both important to talk about in their own right.

Diversity - as PH stated earlier in the thread, the diversity we need starts with diversity of background and experience, not diversity in race. When you have an administration full of nepotism and cronyism, you have one full of people who think and act the same. It's how the things that have happened over the last ten years are able to happen without any recourse. When there's no one to challenge bad decisions, immoral actions, and toxic leadership - or when there's a culture of fear that keeps people from challenging those things - there's no true accountability. With no accountability, bad things happen.

With cronyism and nepotism also comes a duplication of thought process. When you hire people exactly like you, there are no different thought processes in the room making decisions. That means there's no one there to shine a light on particular blind spots and biases. That does not mean anyone in our senior leadership is racist. Every single person - myself included - has blindspots and should surround themselves with people of diverse backgrounds to shine light on those blindspots. It's how we grow.

The absolute first step we need to make to change our culture is diversify the background, experience, and leadership styles of our executive and senior leadership.

Representation - lest more people accuse me of woke liberalism, let me tell you how I was first introduced to the idea of representation:

In 2009, I was sitting in Carey Green's office waiting to do an interview for LibertyFlames.com. As we were getting ready, he showed me the newest brochures Liberty had just produced as marketing collateral for our coaches and recruiters to use in trying to get kids to Liberty. He looked at it and said, "How am I supposed to get black kids to play here if all they see in this are white kids?" Until that time, I had never even thought of the idea of representation and how important it was to see an example of yourself in where you're going. That's my driving force in wanting to see a more diverse faculty and more diversity in convocation speakers. It is not to check a box with liberals. It is to recruit the next generation of Champions for Christ.

Racenut wrote: April 7th, 2021, 1:53 amWould a Thomas Sowell, a Ben Carson, a Clarence Thomas, a Condoleezza Rice or even a Candace Owens or Tim Scott satisfy the liberal criteria set forth to make the staff and leadership more diverse? Probably not.
Would this signal a shift in "Culture"? I doubt it.
I would challenge the basis of this question on the basis of satisfying a liberal criteria. I've been the most vocal about diversity and representation and I couldn't care less about satisfying a "liberal criteria."

I think the people you mentioned would be welcomed with open arms at Liberty. However, I think there's no chance any of the ones you listed - or anyone of their stature - would ever consider a full-time position at Liberty with the way we treat our faculty currently. We don't pay nearly enough and we don't guarantee their position for longer than an academic school year. On top of that, we don't allow faculty to speak their mind or challenge things they disagree with. There's such a culture of fear within our faculty that many will not dare say anything that could hint at being negative in email, on university phones, or in their offices for fear of potentially being under some form of surveillance. That culture has to change before we can even begin to think we can attract the likes of a Ben Carson or Condoleezza Rice.
#624542
I know we are rabbit-trailing here, but I wanted to add something that hasn’t really been mentioned in the diversity conversation, although Jon touched on it with “blind spots” briefly in his previous post.

When we are talking about theological and pastoral training, it’s vital to have professors from different backgrounds and not just so black and brown students can have representation.

Everyone brings a cultural viewpoint to the Bible. It changes how we see passages, how we interpret them, and how we apply them.

For example, think about the prodigal son. When people from rich western nations read it, they focus on the son spending his money carelessly because that fits our cultural context. In more impoverished settings, they focus on the famine that struck the land (read it again, I bet many of you don’t even remember that a famine struck the land), because that’s a part that resonates with their experience.

If we don’t have professors, specifically in theology/Bible departments, from diverse backgrounds, we are doing a disservice to all students by allowing these blind spots to persist as well as teaching them that the white, western, male way to interact with these passages is the “correct” way.

Now, I agree with @flameshaw in some contexts- diversity for diversity’s sake doesn’t really matter in, say, the math department. When it comes to Bible and theology it does.
#624543
stokesjokes wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:51 am For example, think about the prodigal son. When people from rich western nations read it, they focus on the son spending his money carelessly because that fits our cultural context. In more impoverished settings, they focus on the famine that struck the land (read it again, I bet many of you don’t even remember that a famine struck the land), because that’s a part that resonates with their experience.
I actually think of how judgmental, jealous, and unforgiving the son was that got it right early in life .... when his brother came home.

Side note, many from the west have suffered famine. Here's an example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

I've read that many Irish women came to America as slaves or indentured servants. We all have a past, but are "equally created".
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#624547
Racenut - I understand your confusion as to the culture we have been discussing in these threads. The student experience and how we fit into the outside world is not connected to what some on here are describing as the "toxic culture". This has everything to do with how senior leadership and the board operates. And yes, that list of individuals you suggested would have a significant impact on the culture of the school. Each of them has the gravitas and outside perspective to position the school well moving forward. I agree with Jon that the odds of attracting that caliber of candidate is slim unless we have reform in the Board of Trustees. And honestly I am not convinced we are even looking to hire someone at this point. This "search" shows no signs of being a legitimate effort.

I have no idea how his health is these days, but I would love to hear Dr. Towns' thoughts on the current state of being with Prevo, the board and the "investigation". I know many involved are lifelong friends of his. But I suspect the events of the past 12 months continue to grieve him significantly.

Did anyone else cringe when their Liberty Journal arrived in the mail to find Prevo waxing on about "every day, Carol and I say that this campus just feels like home"? How soon after Nasser vacates his house on the mountain this summer will it take for Prevo to have moving vans waiting to unload his stuff? After some renovations, of course.
#624551
Sly Fox wrote: April 7th, 2021, 2:32 pm
Did anyone else cringe when their Liberty Journal arrived in the mail to find Prevo waxing on about "every day, Carol and I say that this campus just feels like home"? How soon after Nasser vacates his house on the mountain this summer will it take for Prevo to have moving vans waiting to unload his stuff? After some renovations, of course.
Yes, I very much cringed. Unfortunately, it would appear nothing is changing anytime soon.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#624563
I sense he considers himself an oracle based on the pearls of wisdom he shares daily. I would suggest that I am surprised none of the social savvy folks on campus have let him know it doesn't work. But that would dismiss the concept that it is good to be king and a Man-oh-Gawd need not trifle with counsel from subserviants. The Hyles legacy lives on. Sigh.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#624730
Thanks so much for the grace shown to me as an outsider in the past week on this complicated subject. Having served as a Deacon and in various other capacities in charities and in businesses, I have long ago lost the obsession of seeing how the sausage is made. I just want it to taste good; not at all costs mind you, but you get my idea. Some pretty harsh words have been said in this thread and I prefer to justify that rhetoric as a passion for desiring the best for Liberty. There is so much good going on that the entire Board cannot be made up of trolls lurking under the bridge, seeking cash, treasure or at least homage before allowing safe passage. I also know that we in our flesh can be pretty crafty concealing our sin, and I doubt there there was widespread knowledge of Jr's behavior beyond a very small personal circle.
One of the most mentioned cultural targets mentioned on this thread seemed to be faculty/staff diversity, tenure and treatment. Perhaps thoughtful measured solutions are required for thoughtful measured action. Trashing programs and offerings as a whole falls on deaf ears when I see all that is good going on.
A perfect example is the schools handling of social justice issues this past year. Whoever was in charge of the "CREATEDEQUALLY" initiative deserves much credit. Rather than jumping on the band wagon with many in professional and collegiate sports, Liberty created a Biblically sound answer to a very controversial issue while refusing to disparage our Nation and Law Enforcement as a whole. A truly thoughtful and measured response. I have recently severed a 30 year giving relationship with my Alma Mater because of the thoughtless, insulting, knee-jerk reaction by individuals and that University as a whole.
I guess what I am saying is that social media (even this board) are lightening rods for those who seek to tear down all that Liberty stands for. Seeing thousands on campus for CFAW this weekend shows me that God is very much alive and working in Lynchburg despite our shortcomings and He will accomplish His will. As I said in the first post, I hope our this discussion will be tempered with grace and love.
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By Racenut
Registration Days Posts
#624736
'Complete C-Suite overhaul", calling leadership a "joke" and saying that LU doesn't have a serious "faculty or curriculum" are phrases that have been tossed around by a few here, not by you I might add. These things offend me and do a disservice to all that has been done well. No one would advocate standing still, but give me a break, where has such a work on this scale been done before in Christ's name anywhere in the world,? Not many, if any.
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