[ballcoach15]

What is actual definition of social justice ?

[paradox]

According to Zinn & Chomsky--it relates to their version of revisionist history. It's pretty radical. It claims that everything coming from Western civilization is oppressive and that everything that is not Western is innocent. That's it in a nutshell.

[chris leedlelee]

According to Zinn & Chomsky--it relates to their version of revisionist history. It's pretty radical. It claims that everything coming from Western civilization is oppressive and that everything that is not Western is innocent. That's it in a nutshell.

That is actually a fairly accurate assessment. With Christianity being the central pillar of Western Civilization's history, it is no secret that social justice activists oppose Christianity as well. Most social justice theories contrived today are deducted from a post-modernist viewpoint. Christianity, by contrast, rejects post-modernism by asserting that there is objective truth and morality. If one is a Christian and is fully on board with the social justice messaging going on in our society, either the individual has not fully researched it himself, or the Christian himself is fine with ignoring the objectivity of Scripture for societal relevance.

This isn't to say that a desire to achieve "social justice" is wrong. The Declaration of Independence declares that "all men are created equal", thus showing that the very concept of impartial justice derives from a Judeo-Christian worldview, and, by extension, Western Civilization.

Edit: Not sure what this has to do with the next president of LU, however, he or she should not be a post-modernist "Christian" by any means.

[stokesjokes]

Your reply demonstrates the problem. “Much” “in today’s society”. “The 2 can be used together “
Why? You are saying the Justice of the Gospel is not enough. That in today’s society there needs to be more. I would say go down the tenets of what the Bible describes as Justice and stop there. There is no need to add or partner. It’s not semantics it’s core to how one defines Justice.
Just because “something” “sorts lines up” with the Gospels doesn’t make it a good thing

No, that's not what he's saying and that's why it is semantics. When the Bible speaks of justice on social issues, that IS social justice. It's not partnering, it's not adding. The "justice of the Gospel," as you put it, includes social justice. In fact, as I've linked before, the term "social justice" was first used by a Jesuit priest based on the teachings of Thomas Aquinas. It's not a matter of something "sorta lining up," its based on ideas that can be clearly derived from scripture.

The fact that the term "social justice" was first used by a man, not God, means that it is an opinion, not an absolute. We all have opinions. Mine is no better, or worse, than yours. It goes back to what PH said, it adds to the Bible, which is an absolute authority.
There are absolutes about how we should treat others. Unfortunately, most of the Bible is open to unconfirmed, opinion/man's interpretation. One must then, make a decision what to believe based on many factors, including personal experience and the consistency of other commentators.
The term "social justice"has been corrupted and hijacked further by modern society to refer to a mostly racial reference. I do not see that mentioned anywhere in the Bible, from that frame of reference. imho.

You do know the Bible wasn't written in English, right? I kid, I kid.
I agree with you for the most part. What strikes me as funny is that those in this thread who are defining "social justice" in corrupted and radical terms are those who are against it, while those who are defending it are very clearly defining it differently.

So, ultimately, semantics.

Also funny/coincidental that Chomsky gets brought up when we are discussing semantics.

[ballcoach15]

I figured it was just something the Democrats dreamed up, to use as a platform as they set sail to destroy the nation. I'm over 50 years old, and had never heard of it until recently. When I took college courses on Criminal Justice, and attended Missouri Police Academy, that term was never in the POI.
Technically there's no such thing as social justice IAW Constitution and the Bible.

[Jonathan Carone]

According to Zinn & Chomsky--it relates to their version of revisionist history. It's pretty radical. It claims that everything coming from Western civilization is oppressive and that everything that is not Western is innocent. That's it in a nutshell.

Yeah that's nowhere near the way I view social justice.

I'm still waiting on Haize to answer my question about his definitions before I jump in too deep. I want to see where we line up before going further.

[Purple Haize]

According to Zinn & Chomsky--it relates to their version of revisionist history. It's pretty radical. It claims that everything coming from Western civilization is oppressive and that everything that is not Western is innocent. That's it in a nutshell.

Yeah that's nowhere near the way I view social justice.

I'm still waiting on Haize to answer my question about his definitions before I jump in too deep. I want to see where we line up before going further.

I’ve given you my definition of Gospel Justice. My definition of Social Justice in comparison to yours is irrelevant I’ve told you specifically why Social Justice is not Gospel Justice. Those differences are not semantics they are keys
For example the NOI used to, and still does to an extent, do an incredible job getting adherents off drugs, educated and into a stable environment. All of which certainly follow the Gospel precepts. They do/did it in some ways we as Christians should feel shamed for our shout comings. But I would never say Yeah the difference between the NOI and The Gospel is just semantics

[stokesjokes]

Semantics means the difference is in how you are defining the term “social justice”

I mention because you seem to be understanding the meaning of “semantics” differently. Which is fun irony.

[Jonathan Carone]

I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm legitimately trying to understand your viewpoint and see where we agree.

How do you classify issues like equality, taking care of the poor, caring for the widow/orphan, etc? Are those things Gospel Justice or Social Justice?

What things are considered Social Justice that don't fall under Gospel Justice?

In your Nation of Islam (I'm assuming that's what NOI means here) example, I would say the Christian helping get people off drugs and the NOI person helping get someone off drugs are both partaking in social justice, but the Christian is doing it from a Gospel inspired perspective based off of Gospel justice.

[Jonathan Carone]

Edit: Not sure what this has to do with the next president of LU, however, he or she should not be a post-modernist "Christian" by any means.

Wanted to address this too:

I think this is a valid discussion within the context of the next president of Liberty. If his/her goal is to train Champions for Christ within the current cultural context, he/she will have to have an opinion and view on these issues. As you can tell with the discussion here, there's a wide range of view points in how Christians should approach some of these things.

I agree with you that whoever we select can't be a post-modernist Christian. We've seen what happens when the president of the University has shifting morals based on culture and not on the Bible.

[LUDad]

I think where I disagree is I view social justice in the way The Gospel Coalition presented it. It is an outflow of the Gospel to me. Because of what Jesus has done for me, and based on the things I am commanded to do as a follower of him, I’m required to care about social justice issues. Our disagreements can be in how to apply our faith to our systems, but I’m of the belief these issues matter to God.

Edit to add: I want to make clear there's no judgment or anything in what I was saying right there. Well meaning Christians who read the Bible and follow Jesus can interpret it differently. I was laying out my view and what leads me to think social justice is important.

You might like to listen to our pastor. Kevin DeYoung, he is board chairman of The Gospel Coalition. Love Alistair Begg. However, even though I'm in a PCA church, my theology is more inline with Reformed Baptist.

[Jonathan Carone]

DeYoung is really going from what I’ve seen.

[Purple Haize]

I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm legitimately trying to understand your viewpoint and see where we agree.

How do you classify issues like equality, taking care of the poor, caring for the widow/orphan, etc? Are those things Gospel Justice or Social Justice?

What things are considered Social Justice that don't fall under Gospel Justice?

In your Nation of Islam (I'm assuming that's what NOI means here) example, I would say the Christian helping get people off drugs and the NOI person helping get someone off drugs are both partaking in social justice, but the Christian is doing it from a Gospel inspired perspective based off of Gospel justice.

I don’t see any sense in running down a list of actions and having you respond “Social Justice means that too”

Social Justice is being hoisted upon us by force in a way and manner we may or may not agree with. But we are at a point where we have no choice or we are branded Racist Bigots or Cancelled. We have the freedom under Gospel Justice to take it or leave it. While the major tenets are pretty well agreeed upon their implementation is left up to the Church or the individual. It accepts that not everyone will buy into this line of thinking and is ok with that. It puts the responsibility of the action on the individual not Corporately. It acknowledges that there will never be equity and fairness in this World and that our eyes and focus should be on our eternal destination more than our temporal one. Have you used your gifts? What have you done for the least of these? They emphasis is always on the Individual. The Christ follower. The Body of Christ at the most. Anything requiring more than that is unnecessary

[Sly Fox]

Justice

[TH Spangler]

https://www.gotquestions.org/social-justice.html

Pastor J.D. Farag Is interesting to listen to even if you don't buy into everything he says. The phrase "one world government" jumps out at you but more interesting is the coming "one-world religion" described in Revelation 17:1–18 as “the great harlot”. Could "social justice theology" be what unites the world's religions into one? ....... Just thinking out loud

https://www.gotquestions.org/one-world-religion.html

[LUDad]

https://www.gotquestions.org/social-justice.html

Pastor J.D. Farag Is interesting to listen to even if you don't buy into everything he says. The phrase "one world government" jumps out at you but more interesting is the coming "one-world religion" described in Revelation 17:1–18 as “the great harlot”. Could "social justice theology" be what unites the world's religions into one? ....... Just thinking out loud

https://www.gotquestions.org/one-world-religion.html

History tends to indicate that it will come down to conflict between the "people of the book". Islam, Judaism, and milliant Christianity (Church of Rome). For almost two thousand years this has been the primary source of conflict in the world. When in conflict, most "conversions" into one religion have been forced or come about by accommodation.

[stokesjokes]

I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm legitimately trying to understand your viewpoint and see where we agree.

How do you classify issues like equality, taking care of the poor, caring for the widow/orphan, etc? Are those things Gospel Justice or Social Justice?

What things are considered Social Justice that don't fall under Gospel Justice?

In your Nation of Islam (I'm assuming that's what NOI means here) example, I would say the Christian helping get people off drugs and the NOI person helping get someone off drugs are both partaking in social justice, but the Christian is doing it from a Gospel inspired perspective based off of Gospel justice.

I don’t see any sense in running down a list of actions and having you respond “Social Justice means that too”

Social Justice is being hoisted upon us by force in a way and manner we may or may not agree with. But we are at a point where we have no choice or we are branded Racist Bigots or Cancelled. We have the freedom under Gospel Justice to take it or leave it. While the major tenets are pretty well agreeed upon their implementation is left up to the Church or the individual. It accepts that not everyone will buy into this line of thinking and is ok with that. It puts the responsibility of the action on the individual not Corporately. It acknowledges that there will never be equity and fairness in this World and that our eyes and focus should be on our eternal destination more than our temporal one. Have you used your gifts? What have you done for the least of these? They emphasis is always on the Individual. The Christ follower. The Body of Christ at the most. Anything requiring more than that is unnecessary

No offense, but you are misreading scripture through western eyes (Book link: https://www.amazon.com/Misreading-Scri ... /ref=nodl_)

American individualism has been imposed on scripture, but know that the original audience would understand it much differently.

[Purple Haize]

No offense but you are misreading my comments. Nowhere did I mention American Exceptionalism. Although I believe it is true I do not back it up Scripturally because it’s apples and oranges.
Every single point I made can be applied to any person throughout history. Samaritans sort of got a bad deal in NT times. Non Roman citizens did as well. You can move it into the Epistles and Early Churches. Synagogues of the day had their way of handling things. Jesus wasn’t afraid to upset the Apple cart to point out where they strayed. He did not force nor advocate into forcing people to follow His teachings. He took people as they were, but set aside His followers with guidelines on how they should act. He did not call for the end of the Roman Empire. He did not call for the Visigoths or whoever to march in the streets of downtown Rome. He didn’t call for Rome to redistribute the wealth of its citizens. I could go on. He spoke only to those who CHOSE to follow him. Jew, Samaritan, Gentile it didn’t matter.
The book you cited is basically a History Channel “Did You Know” and makes a good read I’m sure. I do consider the Greeks and Romans as part of Western Civilization, although the area of Israel Lebanon etc is considered the Near East, so I’m not sure what the point of trying to explain the concepts away as Western gets anyone. Yes there are a lot of trivial things we look at as Americans that don’t quite align scripturally maybe. Maybe our felt board Sunday school lessons weren’t 100% accurate describing Daily Life During the Time of Christ but those are minor

[paradox]

Seminarians are having these "semantical" discussions, literally, with themselves. Like everything else they do, it just doesn't hold up in the actual world. And by all means...please wear a mask.

...

[stokesjokes]

No offense, but you are misreading my comment about misreading

I didn’t say anything about American exceptionalism, I said individualism. We are trained to read the Bible as individuals, so it’s all about my individual holiness and choices. Those writing and receiving the Bible would not have understood it that way. There are parts that can definitely be individually applied, but we are distorting scripture if we are denying the communal and societal messages that are there throughout.

[paradox]

You are living in a dangerous hotspot. Practice. Social. Distancing.

[bigsmooth]

The next President needs to be a strong Christian for sure and i do not think he/she needs to be a pastor. Personally i would prefer to go the the old model when Doc was alive. When i was a student, Doc was the Chancellor and A. Pierre Guillermin was president. I would want the chancellor to to be the spiritual leader and the President to handle day to day operations, fundraising, basically the business side. This person would also need to be strong in their faith. They also need to be inclusive, meaning do all they can to attract more minorities and to keep politics out of convo. Many black students and black people in general lean to be democrats and having Trump shoved down their throats is not ideal in my opinion. i have no issue about talking politics, and being " politically incorrect" but the approach of Jerry Jr. and his minions was poor.

[Purple Haize]

The next President needs to be a strong Christian for sure and i do not think he/she needs to be a pastor. Personally i would prefer to go the the old model when Doc was alive. When i was a student, Doc was the Chancellor and A. Pierre Guillermin was president. I would want the chancellor to to be the spiritual leader and the President to handle day to day operations, fundraising, basically the business side. This person would also need to be strong in their faith. They also need to be inclusive, meaning do all they can to attract more minorities and to keep politics out of convo. Many black students and black people in general lean to be democrats and having Trump shoved down their throats is not ideal in my opinion. i have no issue about talking politics, and being " politically incorrect" but the approach of Jerry Jr. and his minions was poor.

I miss you man.

[flameshaw]

No offense but you are misreading my comments. Nowhere did I mention American Exceptionalism. Although I believe it is true I do not back it up Scripturally because it’s apples and oranges.
Every single point I made can be applied to any person throughout history. Samaritans sort of got a bad deal in NT times. Non Roman citizens did as well. You can move it into the Epistles and Early Churches. Synagogues of the day had their way of handling things. Jesus wasn’t afraid to upset the Apple cart to point out where they strayed. He did not force nor advocate into forcing people to follow His teachings. He took people as they were, but set aside His followers with guidelines on how they should act. He did not call for the end of the Roman Empire. He did not call for the Visigoths or whoever to march in the streets of downtown Rome. He didn’t call for Rome to redistribute the wealth of its citizens. I could go on. He spoke only to those who He CHOSE to follow him. Jew, Samaritan, Gentile it didn’t matter.
The book you cited is basically a History Channel “Did You Know” and makes a good read I’m sure. I do consider the Greeks and Romans as part of Western Civilization, although the area of Israel Lebanon etc is considered the Near East, so I’m not sure what the point of trying to explain the concepts away as Western gets anyone. Yes there are a lot of trivial things we look at as Americans that don’t quite align scripturally maybe. Maybe our felt board Sunday school lessons weren’t 100% accurate describing Daily Life During the Time of Christ but those are minor

FIFY.

[Jonathan Carone]

We're going Arminian vs Calvinist now! Let the fight begin!