[chris leedlelee]

From my seat squarely in the middle, what I see is the American Church losing more and more influence to every day people because the public speaking leaders aren't separating policy from personal conduct. In fact, they're doing what it takes to defend the president's conduct which, to an unbelieving world, comes across as hypocritical. We've become a nation who elevates our political party over our faith and in doing so will justify things we wouldn't otherwise accept in order to keep or gain political power.

Do you think the American Church would be better off with losing their tax-exempt status for not accepting LGBTQ dogma? Or America would be better off without the pro-life judges?
Democrats, who see government as setting the moral course for man, of course see the character flaws in Trump and use it as an indictment of the Christians who support him. However, Christians and those who believe in limited government, see Christ as the moral agent for guidance, not political leaders. It is easy to see how secular people, who see government as the means to change the hearts of men for a utopian society, believe that Christain support of Trump is because of hypocrisy. Certainly, we would prefer to have a moral individual as a leader ( I was a Rubio guy originally), but, if we are to choose between an ally of the Christian faith with character flaws and a party who openly despises our faith, I think it is an easy choice.
I understand where you are coming from, however.

[Jonathan Carone]

If you want to support the man’s policies because you see him as an ally for your faith, then by all means do that.

Where my disappointment comes is Christian leaders and Christians in general caving to defend his behavior instead of holding him to a higher standard behaviorally.

For example - I think Jerry is a great business mind. I can - and do - support how he has led the University financially but still try to speak out against his actions that are blatantly anti-Christian. Unfortunately too many people feel like to support someone, you must defend everything they do.

Accountability makes us all better.

[Jonathan Carone]

Also - I don’t want it to come across like I skipped your tax exempt question. I think that’s a totally different conversation that would derail the bigger picture one we’re having now. I’m glad to have it at some point though.

[FlamesHighontheTide]

The tax exempt question is an interesting discussion. However, Scripture is clear about how we should view the LGBTQ issue and if the government wants to take the tax exempt status away from churches that will not change their view then so be it. I honestly could give a rats butt about whether the church gets tax exempt status or not. Was it a blessing, of course. Have I as a pastor benefitted from it, yes. However, God and His word are far greater than having tax exempt status.

[Jonathan Carone]

‪I fully understand why many of you support the current president.‬

‪And I also fully acknowledge the Democrats have been out to get him since the moment he was elected.‬

‪That said, this article graciously sums up my view of where we are politically.‬

‪No matter your side, take the time to read it.‬

‪https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... fice.html‬

[thepostman]

Just finished reading that and was going to post it here. Thought it was really well written. Pretty surprised CT put it out there.

[Purple Haize]

@stokesjokes you’re standing up for and defending yourself now. If I ask for you to send me $1000 and you don’t why not ? I asked for it. Will you defend that decision. When someone comes at you with physical Ill intent will you let them have their way with you and your loved ones?
Do you defend your faith in the face of of contention? Or do you just hide your light under a bushel?
Basically if you don’t agree you are defending.

Ok ok, fair enough on some of those. But if we’re talking about the president, we aren’t talking about standing up for values, we are talking about name-calling, insulting, and bullying.

Here’s where I sit with it. It’s hard for me to reconcile things like:

Turn the other cheek- Matt. 5:38
The meek will inherit the earth- Matt 5:5
Jesus rebuking Peter for defending him- Matt 26
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you- Matt 5:44
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but repay evil with blessing- 1 Peter 3:9

With “counter-punching,” especially in the way Trump does it.

And if we were to go further with it, I think it’s hard to justify self defense (violent self-defense) with any of these teachings. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but self defense does not seem to be a value Jesus taught.

What one person calls bullying another calls counter punching. He fights for the values that he sees important. And at this point the align for the most part with evangelicals. If he’s gonna fight for political policies I agree with I’m all for it as well. This is what politics has become. I don’t look to him for any type of Spiritual guidance or insight so I don’t really judge him by those standards

How do you understand “meek”?
Peter had a sword. He was only rebuked in that one instance. In another they were told to buy swords
I can love you and pray for you if you persecute me. But there’s no proscription for me to continue you to allow it
And we are to overcome evil with good. Does that mean good deeds over words?

The way Trump does it? He tries to destroy his opponent. But by the same token he will turn right back around and work with them the next day. I’m ok with that. But I’m not a pacifist. I believe Jesus wants us to protect ourselves and our families. I don’t look for violence. But I want to be prepared if/when evil is visited upon me. I see no Biblical contradiction in that

[Purple Haize]

I can buy counter punching and standing up for yourself when you keep it above board.

What I can't buy is when you say things about someone's husband being in hell, going after an autistic 16 year old, or the other obviously personal attacks against people who disagree with him. We don't stand for personal attacks on a message board, much less from the president of the country.

As they said on The Wire “You come for the King, you best not miss”. Everyone of those people you mentioned took a shot at him knowing full well what was in store.

[Purple Haize]

From my seat squarely in the middle, what I see is the American Church losing more and more influence to every day people because the public speaking leaders aren't separating policy from personal conduct. In fact, they're doing what it takes to defend the president's conduct which, to an unbelieving world, comes across as hypocritical. We've become a nation who elevates our political party over our faith and in doing so will justify things we wouldn't otherwise accept in order to keep or gain political power.

Do you think the American Church would be better off with losing their tax-exempt status for not accepting LGBTQ dogma? Or America would be better off without the pro-life judges?
Democrats, who see government as setting the moral course for man, of course see the character flaws in Trump and use it as an indictment of the Christians who support him. However, Christians and those who believe in limited government, see Christ as the moral agent for guidance, not political leaders. It is easy to see how secular people, who see government as the means to change the hearts of men for a utopian society, believe that Christain support of Trump is because of hypocrisy. Certainly, we would prefer to have a moral individual as a leader ( I was a Rubio guy originally), but, if we are to choose between an ally of the Christian faith with character flaws and a party who openly despises our faith, I think it is an easy choice.
I understand where you are coming from, however.

It’s the difference between letting you decide how you want to worship and having the Government tell you how to worship. HRC Obama Mayor Pete etc are hostile towards Conservative Christians. Trump is at least open to letting Conservative Christians be themselves (and LGBT “shout out when you hear your letter” folks). I’d much rather have a live and let live President than one who derides me for clinging to my God My Gun and my Bible

[Purple Haize]

Just finished reading that and was going to post it here. Thought it was really well written. Pretty surprised CT put it out there.

I quit reading after this paragraph. They started out trying to be so virtuous and then throw this out there. Sort of destroyed their impartiality

“ But the facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral.”

[thepostman]

Yeah, I knew that would cause eyes to roll. People have pretty much made their minds up on all of this. Trump was clearly trying to use his influence to get dirt on his opponent but to what extent? Who knows. He is much smarter than people give him credit for and didn't say anything on that phone call that incriminated himself.

If the Democrats hadn't spent Trump's entire presidency looking for a reason to impeach him then I think more people would take this a bit more seriously but instead people just roll their eyes and move on with their day.

[Purple Haize]

Yeah, I knew that would cause eyes to roll. People have pretty much made their minds up on all of this. Trump was clearly trying to use his influence to get dirt on his opponent but to what extent? Who knows. He is much smarter than people give him credit for and didn't say anything on that phone call that incriminated himself.

If the Democrats hadn't spent Trump's entire presidency looking for a reason to impeach him then I think more people would take this a bit more seriously but instead people just roll their eyes and move on with their day.

It was a horrible hill to die on for the Democrats. It can easily be explained 50 different ways that are non nefarious.
And you are spot on. Considering they’ve wanted to impeach him for 2 scoops of ice cream it’s difficult to take them seriously

[stokesjokes]

@stokesjokes you’re standing up for and defending yourself now. If I ask for you to send me $1000 and you don’t why not ? I asked for it. Will you defend that decision. When someone comes at you with physical Ill intent will you let them have their way with you and your loved ones?
Do you defend your faith in the face of of contention? Or do you just hide your light under a bushel?
Basically if you don’t agree you are defending.

Ok ok, fair enough on some of those. But if we’re talking about the president, we aren’t talking about standing up for values, we are talking about name-calling, insulting, and bullying.

Here’s where I sit with it. It’s hard for me to reconcile things like:

Turn the other cheek- Matt. 5:38
The meek will inherit the earth- Matt 5:5
Jesus rebuking Peter for defending him- Matt 26
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you- Matt 5:44
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but repay evil with blessing- 1 Peter 3:9

With “counter-punching,” especially in the way Trump does it.

And if we were to go further with it, I think it’s hard to justify self defense (violent self-defense) with any of these teachings. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but self defense does not seem to be a value Jesus taught.

What one person calls bullying another calls counter punching. He fights for the values that he sees important. And at this point the align for the most part with evangelicals. If he’s gonna fight for political policies I agree with I’m all for it as well. This is what politics has become. I don’t look to him for any type of Spiritual guidance or insight so I don’t really judge him by those standards

How do you understand “meek”?
Peter had a sword. He was only rebuked in that one instance. In another they were told to buy swords
I can love you and pray for you if you persecute me. But there’s no proscription for me to continue you to allow it
And we are to overcome evil with good. Does that mean good deeds over words?

The way Trump does it? He tries to destroy his opponent. But by the same token he will turn right back around and work with them the next day. I’m ok with that. But I’m not a pacifist. I believe Jesus wants us to protect ourselves and our families. I don’t look for violence. But I want to be prepared if/when evil is visited upon me. I see no Biblical contradiction in that

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I think it’s important to be able to disagree well and still acknowledge that we are all brothers and sisters trying our best to live a Christian life and make good decisions, and that may mean we make different decisions or come to different conclusions and that’s ok. I do think having discussions like this is important for sharpening each other.

[chris leedlelee]

A lot of thoughts on that article, probably too many to post here, but I will comment on this quote.

"Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?"

When it comes to the choice between children dying, and the personal immorality and immaturity of Trump, it is an easy choice, especially when Trump's policies are largely good. I'm sorry, but the appeals in this article are largely emotional appeals. If an individual judges your Christian walk by the personal morality of the political leaders you support, rather than their policies, then maybe their criticism is misplaced. Trump is not the murderer of decency in American politics, he is the coroner.

[Purple Haize]

A lot of thoughts on that article, probably too many to post here, but I will comment on this quote.

"Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?"

When it comes to the choice between children dying, and the personal immorality and immaturity of Trump, it is an easy choice, especially when Trump's policies are largely good. I'm sorry, but the appeals in this article are largely emotional appeals. If an individual judges your Christian walk by the personal morality of the political leaders you support, rather than their policies, then maybe their criticism is misplaced. Trump is not the murderer of decency in American politics, he is the coroner.

My faith, my witness and my walk with Christ are not influenced by who is in the White House. I would not question your Faith if you voted for HRC nor would I if you voted for Trump.

[stokesjokes]

Yeah, I knew that would cause eyes to roll. People have pretty much made their minds up on all of this. Trump was clearly trying to use his influence to get dirt on his opponent but to what extent? Who knows. He is much smarter than people give him credit for and didn't say anything on that phone call that incriminated himself.

If the Democrats hadn't spent Trump's entire presidency looking for a reason to impeach him then I think more people would take this a bit more seriously but instead people just roll their eyes and move on with their day.

Yeah, I think by acting like everything’s a “constitutional crisis,” republicans can’t take them seriously even if the democrats have found something legitimate.

I think what has really happened is that the Democrats have been searching for something impeachable since day 1, and Trump has given them something.

[chris leedlelee]

My faith, my witness and my walk with Christ are not influenced by who is in the White House. I would not question your Faith if you voted for HRC nor would I if you voted for Trump.

This should be pinned to the top of this thread.

[stokesjokes]

A lot of thoughts on that article, probably too many to post here, but I will comment on this quote.

"Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?"

When it comes to the choice between children dying, and the personal immorality and immaturity of Trump, it is an easy choice, especially when Trump's policies are largely good. I'm sorry, but the appeals in this article are largely emotional appeals. If an individual judges your Christian walk by the personal morality of the political leaders you support, rather than their policies, then maybe their criticism is misplaced. Trump is not the murderer of decency in American politics, he is the coroner.

I think you’re creating a false dichotomy here- this is not an either/or. You can be firmly pro-life and firmly against presidential misconduct, you don’t have to choose between the two. If Trump is removed from office, it doesn’t make Pelosi the president. If anything, it tells the Republican Party they need to put forward a better candidate.

[Purple Haize]

A lot of thoughts on that article, probably too many to post here, but I will comment on this quote.

"Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?"

When it comes to the choice between children dying, and the personal immorality and immaturity of Trump, it is an easy choice, especially when Trump's policies are largely good. I'm sorry, but the appeals in this article are largely emotional appeals. If an individual judges your Christian walk by the personal morality of the political leaders you support, rather than their policies, then maybe their criticism is misplaced. Trump is not the murderer of decency in American politics, he is the coroner.

I think you’re creating a false dichotomy here- this is not an either/or. You can be firmly pro-life and firmly against presidential misconduct, you don’t have to choose between the two. If Trump is removed from office, it doesn’t make Pelosi the president. If anything, it tells the Republican Party they need to put forward a better candidate.

He was and is a really good candidate. Look at all the Republicans he beat in the Primaries. That’s what people forget.

[Jonathan Carone]

I doubt he wins those primaries if there weren’t so many people splitting the votes. Traditional evangelical voters were split between 2-3 people which allowed him to rise. Then once the rise happened, there was too much momentum to stop it.

Progressives are seeing it now. If either Warren or Sanders dropped out the one remaining would win by a landslide. But by splitting the progressive vote, they’re allowing Biden to stay in and lead the race.

[Purple Haize]

I doubt he wins those primaries if there weren’t so many people splitting the votes. Traditional evangelical voters were split between 2-3 people which allowed him to rise. Then once the rise happened, there was too much momentum to stop it.

Progressives are seeing it now. If either Warren or Sanders dropped out the one remaining would win by a landslide. But by splitting the progressive vote, they’re allowing Biden to stay in and lead the race.

You can try to minimize it all you want but it was an impressive feat. He won, they lost. He made up the most ground of any candidate. Saying the momentum couldn’t be stopped sells Cruz short. People didn’t coalesce around him. They did Trump because he’s a much better candidate

[stokesjokes]

A lot of thoughts on that article, probably too many to post here, but I will comment on this quote.

"Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?"

When it comes to the choice between children dying, and the personal immorality and immaturity of Trump, it is an easy choice, especially when Trump's policies are largely good. I'm sorry, but the appeals in this article are largely emotional appeals. If an individual judges your Christian walk by the personal morality of the political leaders you support, rather than their policies, then maybe their criticism is misplaced. Trump is not the murderer of decency in American politics, he is the coroner.

I think you’re creating a false dichotomy here- this is not an either/or. You can be firmly pro-life and firmly against presidential misconduct, you don’t have to choose between the two. If Trump is removed from office, it doesn’t make Pelosi the president. If anything, it tells the Republican Party they need to put forward a better candidate.

He was and is a really good candidate. Look at all the Republicans he beat in the Primaries. That’s what people forget.

I don’t know- I think he succeeded because he was a very different kind of candidate, not necessarily because he was so good. He was different enough to have a solid base of support separate from the other candidates, and the “status quo” republicans split the vote 7 other ways.

In a way, I think Trump is the Democratic party’s fault. They forced Hilary through even though she was a bad candidate. Because of this, republicans licked their chops and all jumped into the ring. This split the majority of traditional republican votes into small enough chunks that Trump’s base of support was enough to beat them. I think Trump has a harder time winning the nomination if he’s only against, say, Rubio and Cruz, instead of a stage full of people.


Edit: *apparently Jon and I have similar ideas

[Purple Haize]

He had 0 base going into the election and was basically considered a joke. I thought he was a joke. He proved me wrong obviously. Why people continue to sell his accomplishments short and underestimate him baffle me. Yet here we are

[thepostman]

He had a built in base due to his celebrity status.

[Purple Haize]

He had a built in base due to his celebrity status.

A lot of that “base” just tried to impeach him. Joe and Mika can’t go an hour without ripping him. Having a popular TV show etc does not give you a built in base. Don’t forget he was around 2% and everyone mocked Ann Coulter for saying Trump would be the nominee.
Celebrate Status does not equal a Political base. I mean I love U2 but would never vote Bono into any office