This is the definitive place to discuss everything that makes life on & off campus so unique in Central Virginia.

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By rogers3
Posts
#584503
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm Jerry has the typical attorney caustic personality. I don’t think that reflects who he is as a person. It may not be pleasant to be on the receiving end of that persona, but the trains run on time.
In other words, the end justifies the means.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Posts
#584504
rogers3 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:35 am
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm Jerry has the typical attorney caustic personality. I don’t think that reflects who he is as a person. It may not be pleasant to be on the receiving end of that persona, but the trains run on time.
In other words, the end justifies the means.
See, that’s what I’m getting too, despite the denial. Blaming it on being a lawyer is kinda lame. My family members who are attorneys are anything but caustic. But, it does endorse the Atmosphere of Fear theory raised in the article if nothing else
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584507
rogers3 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:35 am
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm Jerry has the typical attorney caustic personality. I don’t think that reflects who he is as a person. It may not be pleasant to be on the receiving end of that persona, but the trains run on time.
In other words, the end justifies the means.
Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584509
Yep. It doesn’t mean we’re all perfect and I certainly have to check myself often and ask, “Am I being a Christian in my approach.”

I have a group of 10 high school freshman I meet with twice a week and I’m literally teaching them right now about how to identify what influences who you are and then identifying what % each influence makes up your person. It can be an eye opening experience but hopefully one that will be positive for them.

As Christians, hopefully that part of our identity should be a greater % than anything else.
By Saint Augustine777
#584510
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:26 am
rogers3 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:35 am
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm Jerry has the typical attorney caustic personality. I don’t think that reflects who he is as a person. It may not be pleasant to be on the receiving end of that persona, but the trains run on time.
In other words, the end justifies the means.
Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
Sounds like a bunch of you got your feelings hurt by Jerry. Maybe it’s time to put on your big boy pants. Or stop conflating religion with running a large successful organization.

It sounds like none of you ever had to make payroll. Jeez.

Thanks for the nice welcome some of you.
By Saint Augustine777
#584511
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:42 am Yep. It doesn’t mean we’re all perfect and I certainly have to check myself often and ask, “Am I being a Christian in my approach.”

I have a group of 10 high school freshman I meet with twice a week and I’m literally teaching them right now about how to identify what influences who you are and then identifying what % each influence makes up your person. It can be an eye opening experience but hopefully one that will be positive for them.

As Christians, hopefully that part of our identity should be a greater % than anything else.
I agree with this, but I will ask you, what is so unchristian about Jerry’s leadership?
User avatar
By thepostman
Posts
#584513
First @Saint Augustine777, I'm always happy to have different point of views. Yours is certainly welcomed. Just because people disagree doesn't mean we can not be friendly with each other.

You have been around Liberty for a while. You took some time away and are back again. This means you were probably around when Jerry Sr was around. I worked for building services for a couple of years while a student. Sr always went out of his way to make us feel appreciated. Even back then I didn't always agree with him but respected him so much because of how he treated people. It didn't matter if they were minimum wage student workers or executives, he treated them with respect. I don't see that from Jerry Jr and the things he has said publically and privately doesn't indicate he respects the people who work for him.

He is also a leader of a Christian organization. Whether you like it or not, it comes with higher expectations. You must be above reproach and Jerry hasn't displayed that either.

I love this school and think Jerry can do better. If he is unwilling to admit fault in some of this then maybe it is time for him to step aside and let someone else lead the school.

I don't want that. I want Jerry to stick around but for me it comes with some conditions. At the end of the day, it's just my opinion and the school and Jerry will do what they feel is best.

We aren't going to change each others minds and I have come to the point where I am fine with that.

@Saint Augustine777 your opinion is welcome here and you have been very respectful so please stick around. Discussion is always good!

Go Flames!
Purple Haize and 1 others liked this
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584514
Saint Augustine777 wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:26 am
rogers3 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:35 am In other words, the end justifies the means.
Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
Sounds like a bunch of you got your feelings hurt by Jerry. Maybe it’s time to put on your big boy pants. Or stop conflating religion with running a large successful organization.

It sounds like none of you ever had to make payroll. Jeez.

Thanks for the nice welcome some of you.
I just have higher expectations for Christian leadership. For what it's worth, I've spent a large portion of my career working as a leader in an organization much larger and much more successful than Liberty. The business I worked for was a non-Christian business but the general treatment of employees and the community aligned more with a Christian worldview than the leadership of Liberty.

As Jerry Sr. used to say, "If it's Christian, it ought to be better." That applies to leadership as well. As someone who has studied leadership and been a leader for most of my life, I've come to recognize that treating people with respect and professionalism and running a successful business aren't mutually exclusive. Most great leaders recognize this.

As far as letting your faith impact how you run a large organization? I'm a firm believe that regardless of our role, as Christians we should be led by our identity as a Christian in all things. For instance, I retired from the business world to finish my working life as a public high school teacher. While obviously there is always controversy in the role that faith plays in the public school system, my identity as a Christian influences how I treat my students and how I teach more than anything else.

When I was a leader in the business world, it impacted how I treated my employees. Believe it or not, it is possible to operate as a business leader from a Christian worldview.
Just John and 1 others liked this
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584515
I also find it hilarious how folks who disagree automatically assume that you must lack some sort of experience. It's becoming laughable at this point. Oh, the stories I could tell about my work experience...lol.
By Thirdbase
Posts
#584516
SaintAugustine, you clearly don't understand the critical issue. It's not about Jerry's behavior toward employees and his temperament. His contact with faculty and staff is actually very limited in comparison to his father's. The "culture of fear" is the critical issue here, and it has nothing to do with people being fearful of Junior himself. Everyone knows he's just a good ol' boy who runs a growing business.

However, things have decidedly changed under Junior's presidency. You say his leadership has been effective. You're right if you measure it by the bottom line$. But the academics are progressively taking huge steps backwards. The fact that the online program is negatively impacting residential learning is one cause. And a major factor for eroding academics on campus is that faculty fear for their jobs. One-year contracts have always been the norm (only at LU), but effective teachers never feared for their jobs before Senior passed. Now they all do.

Faculty have little say in how residential academics are governed. By comparison to respectable schools, it's pathetic, and it's getting worse and worse. Faculty should be the authority in how academics are governed. Instead, the school has businessmen and their yes-men governing academics. So while the finances flourish, the academics worsen and worsen simply because the businessmen have no business running academics, and their yes-men (middle management) are the ones not wearing "big-boy pants."

Admin: "Hey Professor, you don't like this new policy we're forcing upon your classroom? Stop complaining, because there are 100s of others in line to take your job." Faculty hear that insulting, demeaning crap all the time from the businessmen and yes-men in charge. If faculty complain about anything, or if their absurd "Faculty Activity Reports" (Big Brother is watching you!) have too many red flags, or if they might say the wrong thing to somebody's spouse, a demotion or non-renewal is likely.

Faculty fear for their jobs, their livelihood. The all wear big boy pants, but they want to be able to buy pants for their boys at home too. Every June, faculty pray that the angel of death will pass over them. If she doesn't, they get a non-renewal letter in the mail, too late in the year to apply for other teaching jobs. Business is business, but that's an awful way to treat faculty. It's pathetic. This ongoing culture of fear has a horrendous impact on academics.

Jerry isn't directly responsible for all these things, but the erosion of academics, the low faculty morale, and the appalling atmosphere of job insecurity has multiplied exponentially under his watch. If nothing changes, it's only going to get worse, and residential LU will deserve to be laughed at for their academics, following in the footsteps of LUO.

So SaintAugustine, whether you're just posting in ignorance, or whether you're one of the admin cat-fishing for names here, either way you're part of the problem.

I'm done with my rant. Carry on.
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584518
ballcoach15 wrote:Always remember who "signs the checks"
Are you familiar with how non-profits work? I have a few good books you could borrow since I know you like to read. It's not the Roanoke Times but it could go a long way in providing you some information.
By ballah09
Posts
#584519
@Saint Augustine777

Lets start with the censoring and firing of faculty and students that have different political opinions. Name calling and doing just about everything that goes against the Liberty way. What else? When he said it's not his job about the spiritually of the school , that should be a red flag alone.

Lastly academics are getting worse and worse under Jr. Quality professors are getting let go and the good ones are leaving because of the fear and the censorship.
By Saint Augustine777
#584520
thepostman wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:00 pm First @Saint Augustine777, I'm always happy to have different point of views. Yours is certainly welcomed. Just because people disagree doesn't mean we can not be friendly with each other.

You have been around Liberty for a while. You took some time away and are back again. This means you were probably around when Jerry Sr was around. I worked for building services for a couple of years while a student. Sr always went out of his way to make us feel appreciated. Even back then I didn't always agree with him but respected him so much because of how he treated people. It didn't matter if they were minimum wage student workers or executives, he treated them with respect. I don't see that from Jerry Jr and the things he has said publically and privately doesn't indicate he respects the people who work for him.

He is also a leader of a Christian organization. Whether you like it or not, it comes with higher expectations. You must be above reproach and Jerry hasn't displayed that either.

I love this school and think Jerry can do better. If he is unwilling to admit fault in some of this then maybe it is time for him to step aside and let someone else lead the school.

I don't want that. I want Jerry to stick around but for me it comes with some conditions. At the end of the day, it's just my opinion and the school and Jerry will do what they feel is best.

We aren't going to change each others minds and I have come to the point where I am fine with that.

@Saint Augustine777 your opinion is welcome here and you have been very respectful so please stick around. Discussion is always good!

Go Flames!
I agree. Jerry Senior was a nice man, too nice sometimes. He was not a good administrator but was a warm people person. I can relay many stories I had first hand knowledge of Jerry's kindness.

Jr. did not get that side of Jerry's personality, he got his mother's personality. I was in class with Jerry Jr. and Mrs Fawell. Knew them both.

I don't always approve of some of the things he says, but I look at the whole person, not his flaws. I have flaws. You have flaws. If they were in the spotlight, threads and news articles could be written about them taking them out of context.

I revisited Liberty in the summer of 1995 and I did not like what I saw. 2000 was not much better. They were leasing furniture and I saw the movers coming to collect the sofas in Demoss Hall. We borrowed money to build dorms and when they were facing foreclosure, sold them back to the bank and leased them. The school was a mess.
Last edited by Saint Augustine777 on September 21st, 2019, 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Posts
#584521
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 11:09 am
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:26 am
rogers3 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:35 am

In other words, the end justifies the means.
Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
Sounds like a bunch of you got your feelings hurt by Jerry. Maybe it’s time to put on your big boy pants. Or stop conflating religion with running a large successful organization.

It sounds like none of you ever had to make payroll. Jeez.

Thanks for the nice welcome some of you.
You are absolutely welcome here. I think I welcomed you awhile ago. If not “what’s up” 8)
I will take issue with your Conflating sentence. I would agree with you if this place didn’t bill itself as a religious institution. That makes it different than running a widget factory. Thirdbase addressed the Academic side of the equation pretty well. Add to that the mantel Junior wants to wear as a leader in the Evangelical Movement and there become a whole set of circumstances that Larry the CEO of WidgetWorld doesn’t have to contend with. If you were to juxtapose what and how Junior conducts business with that of WidgetWorld you’d probably get some HR complaints a lot of turn over and a yawn. But Liberty University is not WidgetWorld and cannot be run as such.
By Saint Augustine777
#584522
ballah09 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:47 pm @Saint Augustine777

Lets start with the censoring and firing of faculty and students that have different political opinions. Name calling and doing just about everything that goes against the Liberty way. What else? When he said it's not his job about the spiritually of the school , that should be a red flag alone.

Lastly academics are getting worse and worse under Jr. Quality professors are getting let go and the good ones are leaving because of the fear and the censorship.
I have not seen any of this. But I have no problem firing a Tran-sexual Professor or a liberal theology professor. We have Muslim students, so I doubt any students are expelled for their beliefs.
I came back to Liberty for the academics. And I work my behind off to maintain a 4.0 GPA in my masters program.
Last edited by Saint Augustine777 on September 21st, 2019, 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Saint Augustine777
#584523
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:20 pm
Saint Augustine777 wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:26 am

Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
Sounds like a bunch of you got your feelings hurt by Jerry. Maybe it’s time to put on your big boy pants. Or stop conflating religion with running a large successful organization.

It sounds like none of you ever had to make payroll. Jeez.

Thanks for the nice welcome some of you.
I just have higher expectations for Christian leadership. For what it's worth, I've spent a large portion of my career working as a leader in an organization much larger and much more successful than Liberty. The business I worked for was a non-Christian business but the general treatment of employees and the community aligned more with a Christian worldview than the leadership of Liberty.

As Jerry Sr. used to say, "If it's Christian, it ought to be better." That applies to leadership as well. As someone who has studied leadership and been a leader for most of my life, I've come to recognize that treating people with respect and professionalism and running a successful business aren't mutually exclusive. Most great leaders recognize this.

As far as letting your faith impact how you run a large organization? I'm a firm believe that regardless of our role, as Christians we should be led by our identity as a Christian in all things. For instance, I retired from the business world to finish my working life as a public high school teacher. While obviously there is always controversy in the role that faith plays in the public school system, my identity as a Christian influences how I treat my students and how I teach more than anything else.

When I was a leader in the business world, it impacted how I treated my employees. Believe it or not, it is possible to operate as a business leader from a Christian worldview.
Liberty is the largest Christian University in the World. You must be a former Federal Government employee.
By Saint Augustine777
#584524
Thirdbase wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:32 pm SaintAugustine, you clearly don't understand the critical issue. It's not about Jerry's behavior toward employees and his temperament. His contact with faculty and staff is actually very limited in comparison to his father's. The "culture of fear" is the critical issue here, and it has nothing to do with people being fearful of Junior himself. Everyone knows he's just a good ol' boy who runs a growing business.

However, things have decidedly changed under Junior's presidency. You say his leadership has been effective. You're right if you measure it by the bottom line$. But the academics are progressively taking huge steps backwards. The fact that the online program is negatively impacting residential learning is one cause. And a major factor for eroding academics on campus is that faculty fear for their jobs. One-year contracts have always been the norm (only at LU), but effective teachers never feared for their jobs before Senior passed. Now they all do.

Faculty have little say in how residential academics are governed. By comparison to respectable schools, it's pathetic, and it's getting worse and worse. Faculty should be the authority in how academics are governed. Instead, the school has businessmen and their yes-men governing academics. So while the finances flourish, the academics worsen and worsen simply because the businessmen have no business running academics, and their yes-men (middle management) are the ones not wearing "big-boy pants."

Admin: "Hey Professor, you don't like this new policy we're forcing upon your classroom? Stop complaining, because there are 100s of others in line to take your job." Faculty hear that insulting, demeaning crap all the time from the businessmen and yes-men in charge. If faculty complain about anything, or if their absurd "Faculty Activity Reports" (Big Brother is watching you!) have too many red flags, or if they might say the wrong thing to somebody's spouse, a demotion or non-renewal is likely.

Faculty fear for their jobs, their livelihood. The all wear big boy pants, but they want to be able to buy pants for their boys at home too. Every June, faculty pray that the angel of death will pass over them. If she doesn't, they get a non-renewal letter in the mail, too late in the year to apply for other teaching jobs. Business is business, but that's an awful way to treat faculty. It's pathetic. This ongoing culture of fear has a horrendous impact on academics.

Jerry isn't directly responsible for all these things, but the erosion of academics, the low faculty morale, and the appalling atmosphere of job insecurity has multiplied exponentially under his watch. If nothing changes, it's only going to get worse, and residential LU will deserve to be laughed at for their academics, following in the footsteps of LUO.

So SaintAugustine, whether you're just posting in ignorance, or whether you're one of the admin cat-fishing for names here, either way you're part of the problem.

I'm done with my rant. Carry on.
You're done with me? What a Christian attitude, are you sure you are not Jerry Jr.'s twin?

You can feel free to ignore me.
By Saint Augustine777
#584525
Purple Haize wrote: September 21st, 2019, 12:54 pm
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 11:09 am
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 9:26 am

Lol, I was just going to say the same thing...again.
Sounds like a bunch of you got your feelings hurt by Jerry. Maybe it’s time to put on your big boy pants. Or stop conflating religion with running a large successful organization.

It sounds like none of you ever had to make payroll. Jeez.

Thanks for the nice welcome some of you.
You are absolutely welcome here. I think I welcomed you awhile ago. If not “what’s up” 8)
I will take issue with your Conflating sentence. I would agree with you if this place didn’t bill itself as a religious institution. That makes it different than running a widget factory. Thirdbase addressed the Academic side of the equation pretty well. Add to that the mantel Junior wants to wear as a leader in the Evangelical Movement and there become a whole set of circumstances that Larry the CEO of WidgetWorld doesn’t have to contend with. If you were to juxtapose what and how Junior conducts business with that of WidgetWorld you’d probably get some HR complaints a lot of turn over and a yawn. But Liberty University is not WidgetWorld and cannot be run as such.
I am a Roman Catholic. We played the culture war games hardball. Meanwhile Evangelicals tossed up virtual white flags, turning the other cheek during the culture wars thereby losing them. Eventually my church's sex scandal which is now expanding to other institutions, including evangelical ones limited my church's effectiveness. But evangelicals gave up.

When you are at war, you don't turn the other cheek. We are fighting for the soul of not only America but the survival of Christianity. This fight is not for the feint of heart. I have more important issues than HR affairs to worry about. IF the professors don't like their working conditions THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WAITING IN THE WINGS TO GLADLY TAKE THEIR PLACE WHO WILL ABIDE BY THE RULES. Academia is a buyer's market. Seller beware and if you don't like who you work for, employment at will works two ways. Move on. Go to Baylor.
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584526
I've never worked for the federal government. My professional experience is all in the private sector aside from my decision to teach in the public school system.

Once again, the ends don't always justify the means. It's clear that you believe they do. You're not alone in thinking that way. Just not the conclusions I've come to as I've matured through life.
By Yacht Rock
Posts
#584528
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 1:19 pm
I am a Roman Catholic. We played the culture war games hardball. Meanwhile Evangelicals tossed up virtual white flags, turning the other cheek during the culture wars thereby losing them. Eventually my church's sex scandal which is now expanding to other institutions, including evangelical ones limited my church's effectiveness. But evangelicals gave up.

When you are at war, you don't turn the other cheek. We are fighting for the soul of not only America but the survival of Christianity. This fight is not for the feint of heart. I have more important issues than HR affairs to worry about. IF the professors don't like their working conditions THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WAITING IN THE WINGS TO GLADLY TAKE THEIR PLACE WHO WILL ABIDE BY THE RULES. Academia is a buyer's market. Seller beware and if you don't like who you work for, employment at will works two ways. Move on. Go to Baylor.
Yeah, that kind of attitude isn't how good businesses attract talent. I'm not sure what kind of experience you have in talent recruitment and retention but that kind of attitude won't get you a very talented workforce.
Last edited by Yacht Rock on September 21st, 2019, 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Posts
#584529
That’s a very outdated management philosophy. Still used but not as productive in an academic or even white collar setting. People are not the cogs in a wheel this type of “love it or leave it” management style advocates.
Secondly, there are several ways to wage war. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and what not. Using tactics that we condemn in this type conflict negates the goal we are trying to achieve. Now in an Earthly conflict I say Water Board them all 😁
If God needed Humans to keep Christianity alive, then I’d question that God. Christ was here before us and will be here after us. He is eternal, Christianity is eternal.
By Saint Augustine777
#584530
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 1:33 pm I've never worked for the federal government. My professional experience is all in the private sector aside from my decision to teach in the public school system.

Once again, the ends don't always justify the means. It's clear that you believe they do. You're not alone in thinking that way. Just not the conclusions I've come to as I've matured through life.
I don't feel the ends justify the means, so please stop exagerating what I say. Hitler was efficient. I don't think his ends justified his means. Jerry is not Hitler. See how that works?
By Saint Augustine777
#584531
Yacht Rock wrote: September 21st, 2019, 1:35 pm
Saint Augustine777 wrote: September 21st, 2019, 1:19 pm
I am a Roman Catholic. We played the culture war games hardball. Meanwhile Evangelicals tossed up virtual white flags, turning the other cheek during the culture wars thereby losing them. Eventually my church's sex scandal which is now expanding to other institutions, including evangelical ones limited my church's effectiveness. But evangelicals gave up.

When you are at war, you don't turn the other cheek. We are fighting for the soul of not only America but the survival of Christianity. This fight is not for the feint of heart. I have more important issues than HR affairs to worry about. IF the professors don't like their working conditions THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WAITING IN THE WINGS TO GLADLY TAKE THEIR PLACE WHO WILL ABIDE BY THE RULES. Academia is a buyer's market. Seller beware and if you don't like who you work for, employment at will works two ways. Move on. Go to Baylor.
Yeah, that kind of attitude isn't how good businesses attract talent. I'm not sure what kind of experience you have in talent recruitment and retention but that kind of attitude won't get you a very talented workforce.
In a buyer's market it will get you talent. Supply vs. Demand. There are plenty of unemployed PHDs who are very talented teachers and know how to play by the rules. Many more PHDs than jobs for PHDs.
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