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#540492
thepostman wrote:It woild be so awesome if people could have a discussion without the terms "snowflake" and "triggered" being thrown in there. I am not a millennial but not all millennials are the same.

Also nobody on this board is claiming this guy is guilty but you also can't completely dismiss it so quickly either.
I appreciate this. It's really frustrating that some here discount opinions because of their presuppositions.
#540507
There’s a lot of truth in what makarov is saying. However, there’s also a flip side that also true: we have to be a society that is willing to believe victims. If we aren’t willing to believe victims, they feel forced to stay quiet and never bring things to light.

We are currently seeing an over correction of decades of abuse by men who women were scared to confront because they knew they wouldn’t be believe. It’s being taken too far by some and will inevitably cause some false accusations from attention seekers, but it’s also doing a lot of good and exposing some really dark places in our society.

Like most things in life, the right solution is somewhere in the middle.

With that said, when you’re an Evangelical leader, your go to response when allegations like this happen cannot be unbridled support of the man accused while screaming “Fake News!” We have to show compassion and empathy first, not arrogance and dismissive ness.
#540510
makarov97 wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote:
thepostman wrote:It woild be so awesome if people could have a discussion without the terms "snowflake" and "triggered" being thrown in there. I am not a millennial but not all millennials are the same.

Also nobody on this board is claiming this guy is guilty but you also can't completely dismiss it so quickly either.
This. I don't know if he's guilty, but based on the evidence I have (his story/her story) there's just as much chance in my mind of him being guilty versus him being not guilty. I don't know either party so trust doesn't play into this. The story sounds feasible to me (contrary to the protestations of PH) so it may have happened. I don't know if it did but it's certainly looking into. Moore's denial holds just as much water as her accusations for me. I wouldn't dismiss them outright because there is an important vote coming up, etc.

You can say "innocent until proven guilty" and that is how the court system works. That isn't how the court of public opinion works. The good thing (and it is a good thing) is that we as individuals aren't bound by the limitations of the legal system. We can form our own opinions based on the evidence and we don't have to worry about things like reasonable doubt, etc. I.E., if someone is found not guilty on a technicality we don't walk away and say, "oh well, they're innocent."

You can't compare the court system and public opinion. They are vastly different things.
Absolute nonsense. The cop out that you just used is pathetic. It’s one of the. OST dangerous talking points that have come out of this mess. The accuser must bear the burden in every case. The criminal court. The civil court. The “court of public opinion.” If you can destroy someone in any “court” with an accusation, no one is safe and we are all slaves. In a free society, the accused must always, in every case, be given the benefit of the doubt in the absence of evidence.

This is especially important in “he said/she said”cases. This principle has nothing to do with Moore or Takei or anyone else.

The moment we hold a trial and conviction someone on an accusation, in particular an old accusation, freedom dies.

An accuser always has the right to bring forward evidence. That’s what we must convict people on, IN ALL courts, including the court of public opinion.

In fact, in the digital age, the court of public opinion can destroy someone as quickly and perhaps more throughly than the criminal or civil courts ever could.

Accusers don’t have a “right to be believed” in a free society.

Anyone who denies this, just hasn’t been accused yet.
LOL. Someone’s sensitive.
#540511
I’d flip your words around and say it sounds like you’ve never been subject to abuse, right?

My point is that, absent evidence, we have to choose who to believe.

Jon is right and we should always show compassion to alleged victims (which isn’t happening here).

He said/she said cases are always tough, but if I don’t have any personal evidence that speaks to the character of either party, who do I believe?

The world you describe is absolutely terrifying for victims of abuse.
#540515
Yacht Rock wrote:I’d flip your words around and say it sounds like you’ve never been subject to abuse, right?

My point is that, absent evidence, we have to choose who to believe.

Jon is right and we should always show compassion to alleged victims (which isn’t happening here).

He said/she said cases are always tough, but if I don’t have any personal evidence that speaks to the character of either party, who do I believe?

The world you describe is absolutely terrifying for victims of abuse.
There’s only one person claiming they were molested.
#540528
makarov97 wrote:Pretty laughable and predictable responses by some of the triggered holier than thou millennials in here.

We are in a society right now, where this pathetic "accusers have the right to be believed" mantra has turned the entire nation into the Salem witch trials.

Accusers have the right to fairly present EVIDENCE. They ALWAYS, and WITHOUT QUESTION, must bear the burden of proof. In criminal court. In civil court. In the court of public opinion.

If it isn't that way, we no longer live in a free society, and anyone at any time, can destroy another with an accusation.

If there is actual evidence, so be it. Let the chips fall where they may. If its an accusation, you make the accuser PROVE the charge. Especially if there is a categorical denial on the part of the other.

The triggered snowflakes were devastated by the loss of their lesbian queen, and they are doing everything possible to try to turn society into something where they can gain power.

This latest attempt is one of the most dangerous that I have ever seen.

Duke Lacrosse and UVA come to mind as to why you don't believe accusers and accusations without question.

There were just a couple of hoax/false accusations incidents in Lynchburg not all that long ago.

And just to head off any nonsense, I believe that same standard should apply across the board, even to people whom I politically disagree with. For instance, the accusations against George Takei that just came out. I can't stand Takei. He's a disgusting sodomite. However, he should get all the benefit of the doubt, absent EVIDENCE, especially since he has issued a denial.

It can't be any other way in a free society.
POST OF THE YEAR FOR SURE!!!!!!!!!!!! Besides, I love makarov's, have 7 of them. :)
#540530
Innocent until proven guilty. If he is guilty, punish him and any and everyone else. If someone wants to believe that after 40 years of silence and now this comes out right before an election RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT, be my guest. There is every reason in the world to believe that it happened and is not just a political move, consumed by the snowflake media. :roll: Kinda like Hairy Reed accusing Mitt Romney of not paying taxes for 10 years just prior to the 2012 election. Besides, it has been proven that Dim-o-craps don't lie. Especially those who worked as deaf signers for Hillary's campaign.
Jr. and the administration are not perfect, personally I would do some things different, but I am not privy to all of the information they have. There has only ever been one perfect man.
Bottom line, there are some haters on here who don't like Jr. and wouldn't like him if he personally paid off their student loans or let everyone come to LU for free and cured cancer in his spare time. We will never know what happened for sure, no one will. However, based on the recent past, there is a very good chance that she is lying. I just read where her mother even questions her side of the story. Plus at least one other woman has come forward saying that she was offered big money to lie on Moore.
Last edited by flameshaw on November 12th, 2017, 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#540531
Aiside from dbackjon nobody here is saying anybody is guilty. It is important for things to play out before throwing your support behind somebody. That is the issue I have with people like Jerry Jr and other evangelical leaders throwing their support behind a guy before knowing all of the facts.

I keep telling myself debating is meaningless and I'm going to stop doing so online. Too many people, including myself, get way to emotion.

My church has been studying 1 Peter and this verse stuck out to me today and my pastor kind of camped out on it. It seems like the perfect verse for me and the American church right now as a whole.

1 Peter 2:15

"For it is God’s will that you silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good."

I think that will be my prayer for myself right now. I really struggle with that.
#540549
thepostman wrote:Aiside from dbackjon nobody here is saying anybody is guilty. It is important for things to play out before throwing your support behind somebody. That is the issue I have with people like Jerry Jr and other evangelical leaders throwing their support behind a guy before knowing all of the facts.

I keep telling myself debating is meaningless and I'm going to stop doing so online. Too many people, including myself, get way to emotion.

My church has been studying 1 Peter and this verse stuck out to me today and my pastor kind of camped out on it. It seems like the perfect verse for me and the American church right now as a whole.

1 Peter 2:15

"For it is God’s will that you silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good."

I think that will be my prayer for myself right now. I really struggle with that.
Don't totally disagree with the the highlighted part of your post. However, when the other side makes accusations with zero facts to back it up, I don't see anything wrong with defending the guy based on what we do know and what his reputation/conduct has been more recently. ie. if this had been a pattern, or previous accusations made.
Not a defense of the judge, or anyone else. But sexual assault had a much different definition 40 years ago than it does now. IF, what the girl said actually did happen, it wouldn't have been considered a sexual assault back then. (A guy tried to make a move on a girl, didn't succeed and left her alone). The big thing to me would be why was he with a girl 14 years old, IF he was and why didn't one of her parents know and IF they did, why did they allow it? If every guy who tried to make a move on a girl, without removing her bra and/or panties was guilty of sexual assault, my guess is, we would have an all female Congress.
AGAIN, not trying to defend anyone. I have two girls and I am very sensitive to their safety and well-being.
#540576
Purple Haize wrote:I don’t think 14 is the Age of Consent in Alabama
And even your definition would exclude a couple of female Congresspersons :shock:
Good point regarding Congress.

Age 14 is the median age for getting married in Alabama and WV..................... isn't it?
Being that no sex act is being alleged, not sure age of consent is in play here. Not interested in getting into a peeing contest over this in any event. It is a she said/he said and none of us will ever know the truth of the matter.
#540580
flameshaw wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:I don’t think 14 is the Age of Consent in Alabama
And even your definition would exclude a couple of female Congresspersons :shock:
Good point regarding Congress.

Age 14 is the median age for getting married in Alabama and WV..................... isn't it?
Being that no sex act is being alleged, not sure age of consent is in play here. Not interested in getting into a peeing contest over this in any event. It is a she said/he said and none of us will ever know the truth of the matter.
The age of the One girl is extremely important to the allegations. The other women involved were over the Age of Consent, the 14 year old was not. TThe 3 other women claimed everything was consensual. The one who was 14 at the time, claims it was NOT consensual and legal she could not give her consent anyways
IF you believe her story, what Moore did, taking her shirt off and touching her over her bra and panties, is sexual assault/abuse among a host of other things. Touching someone else’s genitalia actual IS considered a Sexual Act. You are right, we may never know. But there could be enough evidence to give us a good idea what happened. I’ve made my opinion clear, but when discussing the point, it’s good to have clarity in what you are discussing.
#540583
I do not believe any of the allegations, because of the 40 year time span. This is just false allegation fabricated by Liberals to try to influence an election. I hope Moore wins.
Liberals are out to destroy America. Often times, I wonder what do they really want, other than kill babies, love homosexuals, and bring in as many Muslins as they can, to vote for them.
#540603
adam42381 wrote:Mitch McConnell says he believes the women and Moore should step aside.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
This surprises you ? He doesn’t believe the women. He sees Moore and what he represents as a threat to his power.
#540653
these newest things with yearbooks and a city basically banning him from the mall is weird. For me the evidence is compelling enough to find this guy a skeezbag who shouldn't be in charge of stuff.

i'm for people saying they dont' believe it though. thats fair to an extent. but most of these people have probably condemned many of the celebrities that have been accused of such acts without much evidence required. So at least have the same standards evidence wise across the board

the people justifying the actions if true because of things that happened in the Bible, well. you are an idiot.
#540667
Jonathan Carone wrote:What about all the other reports? The mall banning him? Other people saying it was a known thing? Are those all not credible as well?

This may have been brought to light because of dirty politics but it's overwhelmingly obvious that Moore liked young girls.
2 things. There is a difference between liking young girls and liking underage girls. People saying ‘it was a known’ thing is irrelevant. Ask what specifically was known and you will get different answers.
If he truly was a sexual predator who liked underage girls there would be more contemporaneous stories of his predations. It’s a known, fact that sexual predators of underage girls continue to do so. He wouldn’t have just stopped in his mid 30’s
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