[Purple Haize]

I hesitated in posting this, as I'm sure the usual suspects will use it as another chance to embarrass themselves.....to coin a phrase.
But this really hits the mark when talking about a host of issues

http://marc5solas.wordpress.com/2013/02 ... ve-church/

My favorite part came in the comments section

The problem is that many are getting drivel from the pulpit and then getting the “A” team from the other world view at University. You can’t expect someone to get Joel Osteen growing up, and then Hitchens at University and not come away thinking that Christianity is for simpletons.

[Sly Fox]

No arguments with any of his suggestions. Although the condescending attitude does chafe a bit. I would argue that today's high school kids have an advanced ability to discern authenticity more than in the past because of the overload of stimuli they have experienced compared to back when we were younger. Sadly most parents and churches have done a lousy job of grounding our kids in the Word. As someone with kids fast approaching this age bracket, it unnerves me at times.

[alabama24]

I disagree with most of what was written, starting with the condescension of "relevant." I agree that many today misuse "relevant" for "cool," but so what? If the church of yesteryear was so faithful and worked so well, what went wrong? The message doesn't need to be made relevant... It always was. But the message hasn't always been applied in relevant ways.

The best thing about this drivel? It comes from "the young, reformed and restless" crowd. Why should they be concerned about any of this anyway... We're all just doing God's will anyway, right?

[PAmedic]

I thought it was DEAD ON

[SuperJon]

I disagree with most of what was written, starting with the condescension of "relevant." I agree that many today misuse "relevant" for "cool," but so what? If the church of yesteryear was so faithful and worked so well, what went wrong? The message doesn't need to be made relevant... It always was. But the message hasn't always been applied in relevant ways.

I actually agree with most of this. He was right on some stuff, but he sounded like the typical hipster quasi-intelligent reformed Christian d-----.

[Purple Haize]

I disagree with most of what was written, starting with the condescension of "relevant." I agree that many today misuse "relevant" for "cool," but so what? If the church of yesteryear was so faithful and worked so well, what went wrong? The message doesn't need to be made relevant... It always was. But the message hasn't always been applied in relevant ways.

The best thing about this drivel? It comes from "the young, reformed and restless" crowd. Why should they be concerned about any of this anyway... We're all just doing God's will anyway, right?

I would say the message has been diluted to serve the method. As much as it is viewed as unnecessary the Church's rush to get away from any type of liturgy has lost sight of what that liturgy represented. For example: you can sing The Old Rugged Cross like a hymn or it can be put to heavy metal music. But the lyrics are the same. The message is the same. To change the lyrics is to change the song.
Also, we have lost sight of the intellectual purpose of Christianity in favor of the feeling of Christianity. It's more pleasant to hear things that make you feel good than to listen to something that makes you think. It's why school isn't fun. But you still have to learn.

[Purple Haize]

I disagree with most of what was written, starting with the condescension of "relevant." I agree that many today misuse "relevant" for "cool," but so what? If the church of yesteryear was so faithful and worked so well, what went wrong? The message doesn't need to be made relevant... It always was. But the message hasn't always been applied in relevant ways.

I actually agree with most of this. He was right on some stuff, but he sounded like the typical hipster quasi-intelligent reformed Christian d-----.

So what you are saying is that the message was good but the method was off putting Maybe we should get together as a community, have a pizza party and discuss how that makes us feel ( I was trying to match the tone. Not sure if I did!ha)

[SuperJon]

It's just the typical condescending nature of church critics today. There are some things of the traditional church that were good and are needed, but the Church today is healthy. I just have a hard time when people spend so much time trying to find every flaw on Jesus' bride. Doesn't seem like the best way to be spending our time. There's a counter argument to everything he said that shows why each one of the "problems" is a good thing.

[Purple Haize]

It's just the typical condescending nature of church critics today. There are some things of the traditional church that were good and are needed, but the Church today is healthy. I just have a hard time when people spend so much time trying to find every flaw on Jesus' bride. Doesn't seem like the best way to be spending our time. There's a counter argument to everything he said that shows why each one of the "problems" is a good thing.

Agreed. He was trying to make his message 'relevant'. I agree with his underlying point that we don't challenge our youth and try to hard to imitate 'The World'.

[SuperJon]

In some cases, yes. In some cases, we're so far from relevant that people aren't able to understand how to apply the Bible to their lives.

In some cases, youth groups play dodgeball and ultimate frisbee. In others, they have true worship, authentic Bible teaching, and a place for students to be real and understand the Gospel.

In some cases, the "feeling" of the Holy Spirit is stressed too much. In others, Scripture is stressed too much with absolutely no regard for the Spirit.

I could go on and on with each of his points and you agree with that so I'm not arguing with you, just pointing things out.

[LUconn]

10. The Church is “Relevant”
9. They never attended church to begin with
8. They get smart
7. You sent them out unarmed
6. You gave them hand-me-downs
5. Community
4. They found better feelings
3. They got tired of pretending
2. They know the truth
1. They don’t need it

Not all of those headers capture the entire point but I would say that those are reasons that anybody, not just youth, leave the church. And while I'm too young to know this first hand, I would wager that these are just modernized versions of things that have always been problems.

[Purple Haize]

In some cases, yes. In some cases, we're so far from relevant that people aren't able to understand how to apply the Bible to their lives.

In some cases, youth groups play dodgeball and ultimate frisbee. In others, they have true worship, authentic Bible teaching, and a place for students to be real and understand the Gospel.

In some cases, the "feeling" of the Holy Spirit is stressed too much. In others, Scripture is stressed too much with absolutely no regard for the Spirit.

I could go on and on with each of his points and you agree with that so I'm not arguing with you, just pointing things out.

I'm not arguing. I'm agreeing with the fact that we agree that we are in agreement

[SuperJon]

When I said agree with that, I meant that you agree with what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion.

[RubberMallet]

I would wager that these are just modernized versions of things that have always been problems.

bingo. per my dad (pastor for 35 years, started as youth pastor is now interim head pastor at same church) this has always been the numbers.

i think he makes a few valid points. to be honest these are big issues with many churches out there. here is the whole problem with this article though.

its equivalent to parents complaining about the schools doing a crappy job of teaching their kids, meanwhile their kid is in his bedroom playing halo or watching his 4th hour of spongebob squarepants.

church is a cog in the system of our relationship with Christ. Its the parents that are responsible for instilling christian values in your children. every once in a while we get a batch of jr highers that are all just monsters. you know the ones already that will probably never come back to church then! stop blaming youth pastors for not fixing your kids. you've allowed them to do whatever they want in the hopes that you can be their friend and hope to God that the youth pastor can reach them. well your youth pastor is pretty hamstrung when he's constantly having to deal with your idiot kids. this guy gets your kids for 1% of their time a week.

i'm actually excited about the direction "Christianity" is going. people no longer accept "because god says so" as answers to their questions and because of that, the curriculum world in biblical teaching is being flooded with apologetics and evangelizing stuff. its awesome. we have great access to minds like alvin platinga and john c lennox that are equipping us to deal with the new militant anti-God we are facing.

the face of atheism has changed. before it was the way atheism should be. i don't believe in anything. nothing we do matters. in the end, we are the dispersal of atoms and in a billion years the universe will be no more so who cares what you believe or what that guy believes. who cares what you do even. today its mixed itself with some evolved morality where it feels the need to push its agenda down the throats of well.....college kids for the most part.

lets just get this out of the way. college kids think they are alot smarter than they really are. think about it. you probably did when you were in college. we have about 4 college kids at work. all of them think they are geniuses but they make some of the stupidest decisions in the world and i'm like "that was me!"

but in the end, its my job to make sure my children are equipped ot deal with the "real" world. not the churches, not the youth pastors. And that is why this article is a pointless one to me.

[Purple Haize]

That's the crux of the issue. How equipped are parents to Spiritually nurture their children? This is not the same as parents helping with multiplication tables or the Gettysburg Address.
But I agree that parents, on the whole, need to do a better job instructing their children. On things Spiritual and Academic.

[RubberMallet]

That's the crux of the issue. How equipped are parents to Spiritually nurture their children? This is not the same as parents helping with multiplication tables or the Gettysburg Address.
But I agree that parents, on the whole, need to do a better job instructing their children. On things Spiritual and Academic.

once again. i'm at church for 3 hours a week. out of 168 hours in a week. if a person relies that heavily on the 40 minutes of preaching he gets on sunday to be equipped, he's already failed. we have to own our "Christianity"

we are content rich when it comes to raising a family in Christ! its at your fingertips.

[ALUmnus]

But let's not undervalue the importance of the church, either. Very little of the Scriptures were written to individuals. One of the biggest problems I see in the church today is Biblical ignorance. Yes, there are tons of new and fantastic resources out there today, but the number of people who utilize them are miniscule. A great majority of church-goers (from what I've seen), use church as sort of a country club. It's where you endure a sermon for an hour, nod your head, and then get your socializing in. But you ask them the specifics of their faith, to explain what they believe to a non-Christian, and they won't be able to do it. People don't really know what they believe, even the basics. This also leads to the lack of discipleship.

There are certain pastors and teachers out there that have been on a kick about how we have lost confessionalism. And while I never learned any of the confessions growing up (Baptists don't really have them), I'm starting more and more to see the trememdous value in them. They teach the churchmen what they NEED to know. This is one of, if not the main, duty of the church and pastors.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to embarrass myself any further.

[SumItUp]

But let's not undervalue the importance of the church, either. Very little of the Scriptures were written to individuals. One of the biggest problems I see in the church today is Biblical ignorance. Yes, there are tons of new and fantastic resources out there today, but the number of people who utilize them are miniscule. A great majority of church-goers (from what I've seen), use church as sort of a country club. It's where you endure a sermon for an hour, nod your head, and then get your socializing in. But you ask them the specifics of their faith, to explain what they believe to a non-Christian, and they won't be able to do it. People don't really know what they believe, even the basics. This also leads to the lack of discipleship.

There are certain pastors and teachers out there that have been on a kick about how we have lost confessionalism. And while I never learned any of the confessions growing up (Baptists don't really have them), I'm starting more and more to see the trememdous value in them. They teach the churchmen what they NEED to know. This is one of, if not the main, duty of the church and pastors.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to embarrass myself any further.

Good post.

[RubberMallet]

But let's not undervalue the importance of the church, either. Very little of the Scriptures were written to individuals. One of the biggest problems I see in the church today is Biblical ignorance. Yes, there are tons of new and fantastic resources out there today, but the number of people who utilize them are miniscule. A great majority of church-goers (from what I've seen), use church as sort of a country club. It's where you endure a sermon for an hour, nod your head, and then get your socializing in. But you ask them the specifics of their faith, to explain what they believe to a non-Christian, and they won't be able to do it. People don't really know what they believe, even the basics. This also leads to the lack of discipleship.

There are certain pastors and teachers out there that have been on a kick about how we have lost confessionalism. And while I never learned any of the confessions growing up (Baptists don't really have them), I'm starting more and more to see the trememdous value in them. They teach the churchmen what they NEED to know. This is one of, if not the main, duty of the church and pastors.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to embarrass myself any further.

i wrote a big ole response but our internet went down and its gone. crap. i agree with you. the church needs to fix alot of problems. i'm appalled by how fluffy many of the sermon's i download are. many of them from huge mega churches. people don't learn about the devil or sin anymore. including kids.

even in my church which is a medium sized church (1500 members) where i feel we do a good job of educating and preparing our congregation i see this. when our pastor preaches and does series on hard hitting things like the devil is actually real or sins that actually affect us today, the next week attendance drops. people don't want to hear it but they need to.

for kids, i think you are going to see that 70% remain. kids are going to "rebel" so to speak. I think it is more of a "finding out what I believe" journey that i think is good to have. The problem is equipping them with a foundation in apologetics and understanding of some complex philosophical issues or at least if not understand them, acknowleging that they exist.

i went to lunch my sr year with a seminary grad and one of our pastors. they introduced me to calvinism and i was completely appalled by the idea. At this point i turned away started researching and eventually decided i was an agnostic.(lazy atheist). i went thorugh 2 years of state schooling and eventually came out of that waffling on the idea of atheism. why? the preparation, my parents had put me though. it seems ridiculous that my father would have me read GK Chesterton and CS lewis during hs. i couldn't possibly understand it right? but things like that allowed me to see the emptiness and destruction that atheism held. i made my way to Liberty and i did an about face. Thanks in part to really long talks with Dr Leverett.

i don't think we do enough of this with students. i'm not worried as much about the 70% number as i am the 50% number and getting that up. But if you are just going to come back and be one of those "in the way" Christians, then don't bother. so the church does need to change.

[rueful]

My bullet point thoughts:

- Youth Ministry is Failing. Take those stats with the grain of salt, but even the best Youth Ministries out there are nothing more than slowing the exit. We have to redefine success, because success in Youth Ministry right now equates to failing. Youth Ministries should be altering the culture around them, not simply distracting it for a few years.

- The Call to vocational Ministry used to mean something. It seems like many in Ministry (sr., youth, children, etc.) take it lightly or get disillusioned with Ministry far too quickly.

- If a church does a good enough job with Men's Ministry and Women's Ministry, it makes children and youth ministries obsolete.

[ALUmnus]

it seems ridiculous that my father would have me read GK Chesterton and CS lewis during hs.

I don't know how you read GKC in high school. It takes me forever to get through his stuff now, and I'm way smarter than you.

[RubberMallet]

it seems ridiculous that my father would have me read GK Chesterton and CS lewis during hs.

I don't know how you read GKC in high school. It takes me forever to get through his stuff now, and I'm way smarter than you.

thats not seeming to be the case now is it.

i waddled through chesterton, sartre, and russell in hs. didn't understand most of it though. i tried at least.

[Humble_Opinion]

RM - I read the last 3 - 4 messages you composed and all I want to do is give you a standing O. Christianity is not challenging enough. We don't provide our children with enough intellectual firepower to combat the questions they are hammered with each day. Once they leave the bubble that is their Christian "Home" and "Community" they have no idea how to foster and strengthen their faith. I have struggled with this, and to some degree still struggle with it. But, that's a good thing. Faith should be a struggle. Yes, we should protect our kids from exposure to certain things, but we should never shield them from the world, because then they have no idea how to be transformed and set apart from the world. Instead, they are enticed by it and often times, they join it. Now, as you rightly pointed out - I think at some point most of them will return because they have ultimately been exposed to the truth and when they hit that dead end they will no where to turn.

Another problem I think the church has is that it has become too legalistic, to the point that it can't rationally explain why some of the rules they adhere to even exist. It's simply become a part of the tradition and we simply must not go against them.

[Purple Haize]

Soooo. Basically what the article said.

[Humble_Opinion]

Soooo. Basically what the article said.

Nope