[NotAJerry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19929620

I've been fascinated with China for more than 15 years. I think this gives a glimpse into why. The idea of a civilization state, built primarily on commonality and history, over a nation state built primarily on geography appeals to me greatly.

The discussion of how China operates with a central government, with most of the power in the various localities, makes me think they're closer to what our founding fathers envisioned than we are right now.

[Purple Haize]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19929620

I've been fascinated with China for more than 15 years. I think this gives a glimpse into why. The idea of a civilization state, built primarily on commonality and history, over a nation state built primarily on geography appeals to me greatly.

The discussion of how China operates with a central government, with most of the power in the various localities, makes me think they're closer to what our founding fathers envisioned than we are right now.

I would have like to see more examples then Hong Kong andTaiwan. The Red Chinese, for lack of a better word, knew that HK was a cash printing machine. So why kill the goose that laid the golden egg? As for Taiwan, the Red Chinese have not thought it worth risking conflict with the US over it. What about the central planning, the family size limit, the lack of religious freedom?
This was a sympathetic piece to be sure. But I do not believe the US will be a lesser global influence then China in the near or intermediate future.

[jbock13]

The BBC being pro-china? Oh no way...

[PAmedic]

was there any mention in that piece of running people over with tanks in Tienanmen Square if they disagree with the government?

didn't think so. and I'm betting most college age kids today aren't even aware that happened.

In fact, not one mention of "communism" or "socialism" at all. Or forced sterilization. Or government control over vocation, housing, families. Hmmm.

yeah... we need to be more like them.

[Purple Haize]

was there any mention in that piece of running people over with tanks in Tienanmen Square if they disagree with the government?

didn't think so. and I'm betting most college age kids today aren't even aware that happened.

In fact, not one mention of "communism" or "socialism" at all. Or forced sterilization. Or government control over vocation, housing, families. Hmmm.

yeah... we need to be more like them.

Or Kung Pow Beef? General Tsao's chicken?

[scuzdriver]

was there any mention in that piece of running people over with tanks in Tienanmen Square if they disagree with the government?

didn't think so. and I'm betting most college age kids today aren't even aware that happened.

In fact, not one mention of "communism" or "socialism" at all. Or forced sterilization. Or government control over vocation, housing, families. Hmmm.

yeah... we need to be more like them.

True that Medic! Revisionist history strikes again.

[NotAJerry]

was there any mention in that piece of running people over with tanks in Tienanmen Square if they disagree with the government?

didn't think so. and I'm betting most college age kids today aren't even aware that happened.

In fact, not one mention of "communism" or "socialism" at all. Or forced sterilization. Or government control over vocation, housing, families. Hmmm.

yeah... we need to be more like them.

Depends very much on where you are in China which was a large part of the point of the article. When I was looking at moving to Xining, in the Qinghai province of western China, none of that was part of the issue at all. It really is like a bunch of different countries under one rule once you get away from Beijing/Shanghai led eastern China.

But maybe I'll listen to a bunch of Americans, who are often as indoctrinated as the Chinese in those major eastern China cities are, instead of relying on my own experience and that of those who have actually been there/live there and have encountered the massive diversity of the Chinese existence.

NDAA legalizes Tienanmen type activity in the US. Are we really that different on government control, at least from the two major parties?

[Purple Haize]

NDAA legalizes a Tieneman Square? Wow, I've read it and not seeing it. So YES our imperfect 2 party republic is much better then some cultural state/nation etc.
It depends where you live? I already pointed out Tiawan and HK but think about that. It's like saying it was easy to be a black man in the early 1800's it just depends where you live.
How many re education camps do we have in America?
At what point did we kill millions of our own people?
We fought a war to help end slave labor
Our cultural revolution was the summer of love.

But since I'm on foe, ignorance is bliss

[jbock13]

Clearly, you lack any fundamental understanding as to how the system of communism operates. Look at the flag. Look at how the four stars are shaped. What do you think that represents? Yes, four different ethnicities, communities, looking to the government. There is no religion, the state is the religion. And that isn't something to emulate, especially from a supposed libertarian.

[NotAJerry]

Trail of Tears. The Civil War, an outright military attack on citizens, declared to stop states from seceding. Sherman's March to the Sea. America's history is rife with as much garbage as anywhere else. The idea that all of China is this barbaric entity compared to the US is just more of the anti-biblical jingoism that far too many Americans have bought into.

Parts of China are brutal right now, but many parts aren't and there's quite a large push for more democratic ideals. Then there's the flourishing church that continues to grow at an outlandish pace and is now infiltrating the government there at all levels.

[TH Spangler]

I've been fascinated with China for more than 15 years.

How Foreigners can Become Chinese Citizens:

Article 7 of the Nationality Law states that foreigners who will abide by the Chinese Constitution and laws can apply to be naturalized as Chinese citizens if they meet one of the following conditions:

1. They have close relatives who are Chinese nationals.

2. They have settled in China

3. They have other legitimate reasons.

In China, local Public Security Bureaus will accept applications for citizenship. If applicants are abroad, citizenship applications are handled at Chinese embassies and consular offices. After they are submitted, the Ministry of Public Security will examine and approve or dismiss applications. If approved, it will issue a certificate of citizenship.

[PAmedic]

But maybe I'll listen to a bunch of Americans, who are often as indoctrinated as the Chinese in those major eastern China cities are, instead of relying on my own experience and that of those who have actually been there/live there and have encountered the massive diversity of the Chinese existence.

The idea that all of China is this barbaric entity compared to the US is just more of the anti-biblical jingoism that far too many Americans have bought into.

what nationality are you?

I apologize for assuming you were an American as well.

On behalf of the rest of the nation- I'm sorry this country disappoints you so. You're welcome to leave any time. Unlike those living in China.

[Purple Haize]

Trail of Tears. The Civil War, an outright military attack on citizens, declared to stop states from seceding. Sherman's March to the Sea. America's history is rife with as much garbage as anywhere else. The idea that all of China is this barbaric entity compared to the US is just more of the anti-biblical jingoism that far too many Americans have bought into.

Parts of China are brutal right now, but many parts aren't and there's quite a large push for more democratic ideals. Then there's the flourishing church that continues to grow at an outlandish pace and is now infiltrating the government there at all levels.

You really want to debate the Civil War? Sherman's march to the sea was classic military doctrine, because it was a war. I was unaware Tieneman Square was a military conflict. I think America is a country with a better system of Government and beliefs. How is that anti Biblical?

Feel free to double check TH's steps to Chinese citizenship.

[rogers3]

I had a history professor at Liberty who taught that Communism was the most perfect form of government- similar to how heaven is described- but sin makes it what it is. Any government formed by man is subject to the same problem and I think that we are seeing the collapse of our culture due to the fact that greed has become the dominant motive in our country followed close behind by the degeneration of morals that is so obvious today. China has its share of problems, but America seems like a modern day Icarus- we keep "achieving" more and more, thinking that we are above everyone, while not recognizing that we are getting into position that we might not recover from.

[Purple Haize]

Clausewitz wrote On War prior to the American Civil War and he is considered the Father of total warfare. Although there are examples from Roman times till the 21st century. The 7 and 30 years war would be partial examples. Of course with technology we have taken the ability to slaughter to a whole different level

*im sure there are examples from Chinas history but I can't spell all the names

[jbock13]

Yes, because lewrockwell.com tells me so

[Humble_Opinion]

When was 'total war' abandoned in Europe? Can you cite a date? I don't know enough about European armed conflicts during that period, but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't abandon it as a whole, but rather the conflicts themselves were not the type to incorporate the tactics described by total war.

I hadn't read the book as NG33 had, but I know that Hart was fond of Sherman, so your interpretations of Hart regarding the tactics employed by Sherman were circumspect to me. Overall, your tone seems to suggest other feelings that you hold regarding the Civil war and it's 'injustices'. What you seem to forget is that we are a government BY the people. At that time - the South was a government BY the people as well. So, while not popular in today's culture, the populace as a whole was a legitimate military target if you subscribe to Clausewitz's general definition of 'war'.

[Purple Haize]

Having a USA and a CSA would have changed history, and probably not for the better. We would have fought at least one more time and would have ended up more like Europe then what we have now. We would have been 2 weaker countries, neither of whom would have become the Super Power or global influence we have. I suspect, and could be wrong , that you don't think Americas power is a good thing, and that's not said in a bad way. I'm just tired and don't feel like tyoing it out better!

[Purple Haize]

Granted its all conjecture and hypothesis. But it's fun. What should be noted, and one of the reasons I hold my position, is England. There was a school of thought, that turned out to be correct, that said America would challenge England for world dominance. The English would have been more than happy to come to the South's aide during the war, or economically if there were no war, in an effort to keep both the US from becoming dominate. But the slavery issue was a huge barrier for the English. once/If that ended in they would come. And then that would lead England's rivals to do the same vis a vis the CSA.
Also, history shows we would have fought. Look at Europe. Look at having the two biggest kids on the block. They are gonna fight.
Great debate though!

[El Scorcho]

Back to China...

Three words: The Great Firewall

[Humble_Opinion]

I'd love to continue the Civil War debate. I have a lot more I'd like to add so you understand what I meant by what I said BYD. But I realize it's off topic of this thread so I say we create a new thread for it... Anyways - CHINA

[Humble_Opinion]

There's a lot to be said about China and I hate writing dissertations on a board like this, but suffice it to say - I do believe they are out for us, along with the Russians. If we believe the Bible - ultimately the forces of Gog and Magog duke it out - but before they get to that point, something has to happen to us here in the U.S. Neither China nor Russia have the conventional means to defeat us on the battlefield and they both have admitted as much.

A few years back a Chinese General wrote a book/essay (I have since lost the link that talked about it) that essentially detailed how the Chinese could defeat the U.S. without conducting a conventional campaign. The book/essay highlighted attacks on our infrastructure with the use of hackers, economic warfare, and using proxy wars (similar to what the U.S. did to the USSR in Afghanistan).

[Humble_Opinion]

Back to China...

Three words: The Great Firewall

Scorch - as far as I can tell you have one of the best technical capacities on the boards here. Do you think the wall can be taken down as promised by the group Anonymous?

What about the U.S.'s ability to attack another countries networks. We always hear about cyberdefense. What about our offensive capabilities? Do you know if we have any?

[NotAJerry]

There's a lot to be said about China and I hate writing dissertations on a board like this, but suffice it to say - I do believe they are out for us, along with the Russians. If we believe the Bible - ultimately the forces of Gog and Magog duke it out -

If we believe the dispensationalist view of the bible created by J.N. Darby in early 19th century Scotland, we believe that. If we go with the first 1800 years of church history, we probably don't believe that.

[NotAJerry]

A few other interesting tidbits from BBC Magazine/News on China recently are these:

Ghost Cities http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19049254

Eight ways China is changing your world http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19797989


In my visits to China, when I was contemplating the move to teach in a university and help train underground church pastors, the most amazing thing I saw outside of their churches was the Harbin Ice Festival. It's held in northeast China, which is essentially Siberia like in winter climate, where the scale of ice sculpturing and lighting is astonishing. Here's a 10 minute Youtube video on the sheer spectacle of it: