[RubberMallet]

Why should I not be in favor of massive healthcare reform including a universal system?

Americans spend twice as much as residents of other developed countries on healthcare, but get lower quality, less efficiency and have the least equitable system, according to a report released on Wednesday.

Every other system covers all its citizens, the report noted and said the U.S. system, which leaves 46 million Americans or 15 percent of the population without health insurance, is the most unfair.

"The lower the performance score for equity, the lower the performance on other measures. This suggests that, when a country fails to meet the needs of the most vulnerable, it also fails to meet the needs of the average citizen," the report reads.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/ ... SU20100623

because this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opini ... ml?_r=2&hp

also these studies are inherently flawed right off the get go because its comparing apples to oranges. #1. many of those millions of people without insurance CHOOSE too not have it. #2. other developed countries...um...er..ARE BANKRUPT THEY HAVE NO MONEY THEY ARE BORROWING IT FROM OTHER BANKRUPT COUNTRIES. Their socialistic ways are unsustainable. #3. you do realize that as americans we consume almost 3x the amount of sugar as other nations. excessive alcohol and drug usage is tops. Our food is so chock full of chemicals and preservatives that we are hardly consuming real food anymore. Its a pure miracle that our health care system is able to keep us alive. our lifestyles are what keeps our health care "poor". If 10 million of us moved to australia, within 3 years they'd have the crappiest healthcare system in the world too.

[NotAJerry]

#3. you do realize that as americans we consume almost 3x the amount of sugar as other nations. excessive alcohol and drug usage is tops. Our food is so chock full of chemicals and preservatives that we are hardly consuming real food anymore. Its a pure miracle that our health care system is able to keep us alive. our lifestyles are what keeps our health care "poor". If 10 million of us moved to australia, within 3 years they'd have the crappiest healthcare system in the world too.

There is the key to the whole situation. The only way things are going to get fixed is getting rid of the food/drug lobbyists and no longer hiring people from places like Monsanto to leadership positions in organizations like the FDA. Until real food is legal again, instead of FBI raids on farms producing raw milk, we won't be healthy enough for any health care system to work.

[jbock13]

09 I love you but I think the liberals are starting to get to you!

Peru has universal healthcare. Wanna go there for your surgeries? Also the fact is that everyone in America gets health care. They may not have insurance, but don't get turned away. That's not the case anywhere else. We can have honest arguments about how to pay for those who truly can't afford it (which is probably around a million), or those with diseases in which they cannot function. It however is clear that government controlling health care has not worked in every country that it has been tried.

Oh, and stop reading Reuters. It's just like watching MSDNC.

[From the class of 09]

Peru has universal healthcare. Wanna go there for your surgeries?

Peru is not a first world country so not sure how they made their way into this picture.

Also the fact is that everyone in America gets health care. They may not have insurance, but don't get turned away.

So you're saying we do have universal health care but just pay twice as much as anybody else and get a lesser service? Well at least we don't have a universal health insurance because that would change everything.

We can have honest arguments about how to pay for those who truly can't afford it (which is probably around a million), or those with diseases in which they cannot function.

I think we should pay for those who can't afford it although I'm sure we'd have different opinions as to who can afford it. 1 million people make up 0.32% of the country. You really believe everyone else can afford their own health insurance and medical care?

I also think it's funny that you throw out 1 million as a random figure yet criticize Reuters for being bias. At least they attempted to back up their opinion with facts.

It however is clear that government controlling health care has not worked in every country that it has been tried.

It hasn't worked in every country true, but there appears to be an argument that it has worked in a few.

I really don't care how you solve our health care crisis but we need to change something significant because seeing client’s premiums rise 5% 7% 12% annually makes it clear something has to change. We can't afford to throw out an idea simply because it doesn't line up with your political ideology.

[jbock13]

The free market delivers the best good at the best price. The government came in and overregulated health care, and now the same government is blaming the free market? But this is what liberals do... destroy the free market, blame the free market, and then the government takes over.

The fact is as long as we have a third party system of health care, our costs will be absurd. Because nobody is accountable for the dollars they spend.

I wonder why if you go to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN, you'd find plenty of Canadians there. Not sure why that would be, since Canada has free health care and all...

If you want to pay for folks health care that can truly afford it, but don't have it, you can go ahead. Just don't force me to. There are plenty who can afford it, but instead choose to buy the new IPad or IMac. You see, it's not that most folks can't afford health care, it's that most can't afford health care with all the other money they waste.

I challenge you to tell me which country socialized medicine has worked in.

[RubberMallet]

I think we should pay for those who can't afford it although I'm sure we'd have different opinions as to who can afford it. 1 million people make up 0.32% of the country. You really believe everyone else can afford their own health insurance and medical care?

we'll pay for it while they pay for their cell phones, rims, satellite tv, and mcdonalds.

[RubberMallet]

I wonder why if you go to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN, you'd find plenty of Canadians there. Not sure why that would be, since Canada has free health care and all...

go to any bordering town dr's office. they are all full of canadians.

[From the class of 09]

I challenge you to tell me which country socialized medicine has worked in.

Germany and the Netherlands have universal health care systems that seem to work well.

[RubberMallet]

I challenge you to tell me which country socialized medicine has worked in.

Germany and the Netherlands have universal health care systems that seem to work well.

psst they can't afford it. germany is nearly bankrupt. they have no money. its working great.

[From the class of 09]

The free market delivers the best good at the best price. The government came in and overregulated health care, and now the same government is blaming the free market? But this is what liberals do... destroy the free market, blame the free market, and then the government takes over.

What about anyone who has had serious health problems and works for themselves or a small employer and has to go through underwriting? Ever told anyone that they came back class IV which easily could have $2,500 monthly premium for just themselves (for just a basic policy)? Oh you can't afford $2,500 a month? well good luck. The conversation is even better if they can't be underwritten or if they have a family they are expecting to get insurance for too.

The market is so efficient that it figured out it is better to only insure healthy people. If you’re high risk the insurance company is hoping you don’t go with them, they are just pricing themselves out of the market which is more politically correct then just denying coverage all together.

Health care isn't just any commodity it literally can be life and death so acting like it should be regulated in the same way that I buy a car or a pair of shoes is simplistic and naive.

[From the class of 09]

I challenge you to tell me which country socialized medicine has worked in.

Germany and the Netherlands have universal health care systems that seem to work well.

psst they can't afford it. germany is nearly bankrupt. they have no money. its working great.

Germany? They aren't doing great right now but they are hardly anywhere near bankrupt. The only real negtives they have are dealing with their neighbors' problems.

In fact Fitch just confirmed Aaa credit rating.

“The affirmation reflects Germany’s longstanding credit strengths and robust economic performance over the past two years,” Fitch said today in an e-mailed statement. “Against the background of fragile global recovery and the intensification of the euro-zone crisis, Germany has recorded strong” economic growth, partly as a result of policy changes.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ook-stable

[RubberMallet]

Germany and the Netherlands have universal health care systems that seem to work well.

psst they can't afford it. germany is nearly bankrupt. they have no money. its working great.

Germany? They aren't doing great right now but they are hardly anywhere near bankrupt. The only real negtives they have are dealing with their neighbors' problems.

In fact Fitch just confirmed Aaa credit rating.

“The affirmation reflects Germany’s longstanding credit strengths and robust economic performance over the past two years,” Fitch said today in an e-mailed statement. “Against the background of fragile global recovery and the intensification of the euro-zone crisis, Germany has recorded strong” economic growth, partly as a result of policy changes.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ook-stable

yes i can google too. they aren't "not doing great right now" they are in a recession and its getting worse each day as a depression is looming. there are reports that we are doing better each day but we still have no money as a country. they are still doing better than other euro countries but thats basically comparing turds with turds. socialized anything tends to do that over time as history has shown us. you also once again dont' realize that we are talking about a country of that is 95% one race, that lives more a more modest caloric life, and is economically miniscule compared to what we are as a country. you just can't compare what they have to what you would have to do here.

[From the class of 09]

psst they can't afford it. germany is nearly bankrupt. they have no money. its working great.

Germany? They aren't doing great right now but they are hardly anywhere near bankrupt. The only real negtives they have are dealing with their neighbors' problems.

In fact Fitch just confirmed Aaa credit rating.

“The affirmation reflects Germany’s longstanding credit strengths and robust economic performance over the past two years,” Fitch said today in an e-mailed statement. “Against the background of fragile global recovery and the intensification of the euro-zone crisis, Germany has recorded strong” economic growth, partly as a result of policy changes.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ook-stable

yes i can google too. they aren't "not doing great right now" they are in a recession and its getting worse each day as a depression is looming. there are reports that we are doing better each day but we still have no money as a country. they are still doing better than other euro countries but thats basically comparing turds with turds. socialized anything tends to do that over time as history has shown us. you also once again dont' realize that we are talking about a country of that is 95% one race, that lives more a more modest caloric life, and is economically miniscule compared to what we are as a country. you just can't compare what they have to what you would have to do here.

What does they have no money as a country mean? Germany has money. Are you referring to their debt, value of a euro, GDP? Of course Germany is going to slow down when all of its major trading partners are slowing down exponentially more so.

Also, when looking at Germany and the Netherlands system "socialized medicine" is a poor description of the system, it is a universal health care system but not solely controlled by the government.

So because Germany is a bunch of white people who eat better than the minorities in our country we can't learn anything from their system?

While I understand that there are differences between the US and Germany I do appreciate the demographic reminder. With that said when we compare the two by GDP per capita we are very similar so to throw out everything learned from the Germany system simple because the US is larger in every way seems premature. I’m not saying

I'd be interested in any real examples of how the free market has solved this health care problem in other places.

[RubberMallet]

So because Germany is a bunch of white people who eat better than the minorities in our country we can't learn anything from their system?

our white people eat just as bad as our minorities. but year pretty much. thats such a big factor in this that you can't discount it. its cheaper to care for healthier people who only go to the doctor when they are sick. its cheaper to care for people that aren't constantly overusing prescription drugs. the way it works now doesn't work. but once again its a lifestyle problem. and our lifestyle is not condusive to a gvt funded healthcare system. the same gvt that hasn't run anything efficiently for years. what we need to learn has nothing to do with the healthcare system. unfortunately, we aren't learning from them, they are learning from us. mcdonalds and other processed foods are growing rapidly over there and will continue as their economy continues its downward spiral.

and people complain about taxes now? 30-50% income taxes and near 7-20% sales taxes is what many euro countries see.

change is necessary. but we are too much of an outlier for us to apply the ways of much smaller, non-diverse nations.

[blwall1416]

...but once again its a lifestyle problem.

This.

I have no problem having a system that would pay/be cheaper for those that really need it....a sudden, unexpected medical condition, trauma, etc...

What I don't want, is to pay for John Doe's healthcare because he's had a 30-year love affair with bacon, Golden Corral, & Johnny Walker.

[Purple Haize]

...but once again its a lifestyle problem.

What I don't want, is to pay for John Doe's healthcare because he's had a 30-year love affair with bacon, Golden Corral, & Johnny Walker.

You say this like it's a bad thing!

[ATrain]

I think the government should make gym memberships and money spent on personal trainers tax deductible. That would start some people moving in the right direction. I also think companies and governments should reward employees who lead healthier lifestyles (don't smoke, BMI under 25, low cholesterol, etc...) by covering all their health insurance costs and jack up the premiums for those who don't. A few companies already have something like that in place, but I think more should do it.

[blwall1416]

You say this like it's a bad thing!

Fixed for Purple..

What I don't want, is to pay for John Doe's healthcare because he's had a 30-year love affair with fatback, Bob Evans, & Wild Irish Rose.

[jmdickens]

Looks like there might be standing for LU's suit after all.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10 ... obamacare/