[JK37]

Logic, your standings only measure competition outcomes. Yet you use it to claim success of an entire athletic department. Seems a shallow definition of success if you ask me (which, I know, you did not).

To all of you, how does one truly quantify success in this field? The criteria you are citing should be a byproduct, not a definitive measure.

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

[SuperJon]

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

Again, it's not all about wins and losses.

[logic]

Logic, your standings only measure competition outcomes. Yet you use it to claim success of an entire athletic department. Seems a shallow definition of success if you ask me (which, I know, you did not).

To all of you, how does one truly quantify success in this field? The criteria you are citing should be a byproduct, not a definitive measure.

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

While conjuring up warm and fuzzy notes, your underlying ideology, heroic as it is, brimming with feel good "church lobby stories" of character, morality, and humility, uncovers an unrealistic expectation of many Flames fans. Finding it quite ironic that followers of a religion that bases its teachings on brokenness, love, forgiveness, and grace should expect an athletic department made up of imperfect adults and 18-22 year old (need I say more?) student-athletes to be perfect at all times, I do wonder if some who frequent these boards will ever have their cup fully satisfied.

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

Again, it's not all about wins and losses.

You are correct, it certainly is not all about wins and losses. At the same time, consider a football coach that demands a squeaky clean overall image, has an entire team of Liberty Way adhering model student-athletes, has a great off the field presence in the community, and runs their program in a way that you highly approve of, loses, how long do you think that coach will stick around despite the off the field successes of the program?



To both of you,

We all want the best of both worlds here at Liberty, and while I agree, that certainly is the goal and always should be the goal, it is, whether you like it or not, unrealistic and not possible. We all know the situation you speak of concerning this year. It was not the first and will not be the last. We will have to deal with those issues the best we can and trust our leadership in their decision making.

The purpose of that post was to highlight the positive aspects of our athletic department and university on a national scale as it relates to winning the Sasser Cup and our standing in the National Directors Cup. As an optimist I find it a shame that instead of celebrating that our athletic department is more successful than the schools I mentioned (including many WAC, MAC, and Sun Belt schools), you both chose to instead focus on negatives and causes for concern.

[jbock13]

Nice. I don't agree with you often but that was a great post logic.

[JK37]

http://lifebeyondsport.com/2012/05/3-qu ... -albright/ 3-minute read

There has been discussion here lately regarding the coaching futures of the staffs in sports such as baseball, softball, men's basketball, and even women's basketball. I was really inspired by the Q&A linked above. I hope you'll read it. I think this is the first time I've ever initiated a new thread; that's how much I value Stephanie and Jane, as well as the content. Those who know me personally I'm sure understand why this topic is close to my heart.

Among Christian coaches of women's basketball, Jane Albright is at the top of the pyramid. A LOT of coaches claim to be Christians, but Janetruly lives it through her coaching. I've enjoyed the pleasure of her friendship for five years now through my mentor Nancy Wilson. God could've put me anywhere He wanted in the spring of '07, and I would've leaped at the chance. He saw fit to put me with Nancy, and I'll always be grateful.

Read the page above. How does it affect your perspective on coaching? How does it apply to the various head coaching issues that have been raised here?

[olldflame]

Does anyone else find it disingenuous to say "it's not just about wins and losses" and/or "I see more causes for concern than for celebration" with no elaboration whatsoever on what else it is about or the causes for your concern?

[jcmanson]

Does anyone else find it disingenuous to say "it's not just about wins and losses" and/or "I see more causes for concern than for celebration" with no elaboration whatsoever on what else it is about or the causes for your concern?

that's rather Sly Foxy of them

[Sly Fox]

[flameshaw]

Logic, your standings only measure competition outcomes. Yet you use it to claim success of an entire athletic department. Seems a shallow definition of success if you ask me (which, I know, you did not).

To all of you, how does one truly quantify success in this field? The criteria you are citing should be a byproduct, not a definitive measure.

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

While conjuring up warm and fuzzy notes, your underlying ideology, heroic as it is, brimming with feel good "church lobby stories" of character, morality, and humility, uncovers an unrealistic expectation of many Flames fans. Finding it quite ironic that followers of a religion that bases its teachings on brokenness, love, forgiveness, and grace should expect an athletic department made up of imperfect adults and 18-22 year old (need I say more?) student-athletes to be perfect at all times, I do wonder if some who frequent these boards will ever have their cup fully satisfied.

When looking back on the past year in Liberty Athletics, for the first time in my years I see as many causes for concern as I do for celebration.

Again, it's not all about wins and losses.

You are correct, it certainly is not all about wins and losses. At the same time, consider a football coach that demands a squeaky clean overall image, has an entire team of Liberty Way adhering model student-athletes, has a great off the field presence in the community, and runs their program in a way that you highly approve of, loses, how long do you think that coach will stick around despite the off the field successes of the program?



To both of you,

We all want the best of both worlds here at Liberty, and while I agree, that certainly is the goal and always should be the goal, it is, whether you like it or not, unrealistic and not possible. We all know the situation you speak of concerning this year. It was not the first and will not be the last. We will have to deal with those issues the best we can and trust our leadership in their decision making.

The purpose of that post was to highlight the positive aspects of our athletic department and university on a national scale as it relates to winning the Sasser Cup and our standing in the National Directors Cup. As an optimist I find it a shame that instead of celebrating that our athletic department is more successful than the schools I mentioned (including many WAC, MAC, and Sun Belt schools), you both chose to instead focus on negatives and causes for concern.

+1

[logic]

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/se ... 80iOrBYu_k

....In a statement released by the university, Schaus stated that he commended Jane Albright for providing exemplary care for the student-athlete, quality academics and extensive community service with her team. He also said that at the Division I level, there were expectations for athletic success and the program, after five years, had not shown sufficient growth or progress, leading to the decision to terminate her services....


She is to absolutely be commended for running a first class program, as Schaus stated. She did everything right - great academics, great community presence, and caring for her student athletes. These qualities again are fantastic and would fit extremely well with a Division III program. As Schaus goes on to say, Division I requires a little bit more, and Albright was 48-94 in 5 seasons at WSU.

She is currently at Nevada - her squad went 7-23 last year, after finishing in the middle of the pack in the WAC the previous 3 years.


Every coach should strive to be like Jane Albright, there is absolutely no doubt about it. We all want our coaches to be like Jane and from what I hear our coaches here at Liberty are very good in that regard. I don't think they would have been hired in the first place if they did not display Jane-like qualities.

At the end of the day however Division I coaches at major programs (and those that want to be major, like us) still have to win...Jane did not at WSU and was fired. Nevada was not very good last year and she may be on the hot seat after another season like the one that just finished in Reno.

The trick is to find a coach that wins AND displays these kinds of qualities. The Jeff Alder's of the world are rare. I haven't been involved in much of the coaching talk, but again from my limited knowledge I think our coaches here are very good, both with with results on the field AND with upholding the mission of the university.

[Purple Haize]

Coaching at Liberty is a strange brew. Do we accept and keep coaches who are moral people, who have no great discipline problems in their program, have good kids that graduate but don't win? Or do we sell out and only focus on the wins? It's a problem LU will wrestle with so long as it has an athletic department. Can you find a mix of the 2? Probably. But can you get them to come to Liberty? I think this is why the Coach Gill hire is going to be very pivotal for the future direction of LU athletics.

[JK37]

Do we accept and keep coaches who are moral people, who have no great discipline problems in their program, have good kids that graduate but don't win? Or do we sell out and only focus on the wins?

But are the two mutually exclusive?

Can you find a mix of the 2? Probably.

I think this answers the question from your perspective, but I'd love to know what others believe as well.

Can you get them to come to Liberty?

If there is any place at the NCAA Division I level where one should be able to do so, I would like to believe it is Liberty.

But is it? And do our coaches currently reflect that? What do the current coaching staffs of Liberty Athletics say by their actions to answer these questions? Are the results all that matter?

[Purple Haize]

So I give you an answer yet you just say that's my opinion? Wouldn't that be the definition of answering a question ? Ha
you would THINK Liberty would be a breeding ground for the types of coaches you seem to espouse. However, there are a glut of them at the D2,3 and NAIA levels. They get it done in every way you would want a coach to get it done.

[JK37]

We all want the best of both worlds here at Liberty, and while I agree, that certainly is the goal and always should be the goal, it is, whether you like it or not, unrealistic and not possible.

[Emphasis mine.] Your post claimed overall success but only stated one criteria. I simply argued success could not be defined by only that criteria. And all the true fans agreed with you. Here, here!

Furthermore, I do not believe it is not realistic or not possible only in scale, not in scope.

We all know the situation you speak of concerning this year.

No you don't; not yet, at least.

It was not the first and will not be the last.

You and I agree.

We will have to deal with those issues the best we can...

I do not deal with them directly. I do not know if you do or not.

...and trust our leadership in their decision making.

I do trust those in leadership, though they are not (all of them) my leaders directly.

The purpose of that post was to highlight the positive aspects of our athletic department and university on a national scale as it relates to winning the Sasser Cup and our standing in the National Directors Cup. As an optimist I find it a shame that instead of celebrating that our athletic department is more successful than the schools I mentioned (including many WAC, MAC, and Sun Belt schools), you chose to instead focus on negatives and causes for concern.

And as you - wholly and entirely optimistic as you are - had already so eloquently accentuated one of the positives of this year's athletic department's performance at Liberty University, how could I possibly hope to do better? I would have expected such a logical person as you are to fairly acknowledge anything else. As you did not, I invited some levity and a different perspective to the conversation. I would call my concern cautiously optimistic - as least more cautious than you.

Finally, you praised one of the department's accomplishments. I believe there have been many, and many more than winning contests.

[JK37]

Does anyone else find it disingenuous to say "I see more causes for concern than for celebration" with no elaboration whatsoever on what else it is about or the causes for your concern?

It was me who said that. I did not elaborate on my equally recognized causes for celebration in the statement you quoted eiher. Was that also disingenuous?

[Purple Haize]

logic obviously is unaware of Coach Alders crippling addiction"..............
I mean stop by Chik FIL A any time, day or night and he will show up. It's sad really. I hear that LU administration is sitting a security tape of him caught sniffing the exhaust vents......on a Sunday. We can only pray he gets the help he needs and Chicks Anonymous can help.

[JK37]

We all want the best of both worlds here at Liberty, and while I agree, that certainly is the goal and always should be the goal, it is, whether you like it or not, unrealistic and not possible.

Why is it unrealistic and not possible?

I believe winning is a byproduct of good policy and practice in a program. Therefore, I also believe losing is a byproduct of poor policy and practice. There are exceptions to both. If an athletic administrator examines the iner workings of a program due to a pattern of losing, and if that examination leads the administrator to find poor policy and practice, than s/he is certainly within their right and responsibility to enact change. But what if the examination finds no such poor realities? Can the administrator take issue solely on the basis of winning and losing? Does the mission of a university such as Liberty alter the process?

I'm not defending a position; I'm posing a series of questions I've long considered myself and for which I still donnot have a definitive set of answers. What say any of you?

[Purple Haize]

You can be a very good coach and still lose.
The pool of successful coaches at the Div 1 level is very limited.
The pool of Christian coaches at the Div 1 level is greater, but still a minority.
Therefore finding a Successful Christian coach at the Div 1 level is an EXTREMELY difficult challenge.

[logic]

JK-

See my example with Jane Albright. Great person, couldn't win at WSU and was fired even though she ran a textbook program. Coaches like this have a place and that is at the Division III level in my humble opinion. With the resources being spent on athletics at the DI level and the kind of competitive people you find in higher level DI administrative positions the pressure to win is obviously there, not to mention at the top 10 revenue producing football programs the success of the on field product directly funds and fuels the entire athletic department...if they win.

With regards to Liberty, Haize hit it right on. Our challenge is to find both the character of a Jane Albright with the success of an Urban Meyer. If we want a top 25 overall athletic department we have to draw the line somewhere, and with the money we're spending and the goals we have, simply running a tight ship may not be enough.

You raise some great questions and provoke much thought. I believe we can find coaches who can win and do it the right way and I think we have a lot of them on campus as we speak.