[logic]

one national prime time ESPN game alone is worth a thousand mission trips with regards to spreading the light referred to in that passage.

Somebody brought that quote to my attention. I think it went unmentioned because it was in one of those long posts that nobody reads. It's a fairly absurd statement though.

Did they read it correctly? What shines a brighter light to more people, with regards specifically to Matthew 5:16 (written on a plaque inside Hancock)? A thousand missions trips or millions watching on TV prime time on ESPN? Ever see those ads that schools run during prime time games? I think LU would look great on there.

Kids, don't forget your history, and don't underestimate the power of television, as we all know this place was built on the coattails of TV. Let me remind you we even broadcast volleyball matches on our own sports network - we know the power of TV and how many people it can reach.

Go back and read my post conn, it is a good one I promise you.

[SumItUp]

It will be great if Liberty has the opportunity to compete in front of a national TV audience before millions of people. I can follow a biblical interpretation of Matthew 5:16 that correlates to an individual follower of Christ being a light, but a football team is a stretch.

ESPN game broadcast > 1,000 mission trips......no way

[logic]

It will be great if Liberty has the opportunity to compete in front of a national TV audience before millions of people. I can follow a biblical interpretation of Matthew 5:16 that correlates to an individual follower of Christ being a light, but a football team is a stretch.

ESPN game broadcast > 1,000 mission trips......no way

I am sure that "We" as in Liberty interpret the "your" in that verse as not just individuals but as one unit as a whole. That encompasses academics, athletics, arts, etc. In that regard "your" could be a football team playing Saturday night on ESPN representing God/LU or a choral group singing at an event in D.C..

The whole point of the post/comment was that moving up to FBS would increase our (and in turn our mission's) exposure throughout the USA. There are Christians in this country that have NO idea what Liberty is but they know TCU, Notre Dame, etc. Football on ESPN year after year is the single best way to fix that - it will improve everything about LU from athletics to academics to missions, arts, and beyond.

[flamehunter]

If you are concerned about exposure for Liberty and getting people to find out who we are, then yes espn is beneficial. But,

16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

how many good deeds do you see in a football game that are outweighed by maybe one "bad" deed - ie- player or coach losing his cool. That's something we expect in the heat of a game but a non-Christian looking at it could probably be turned off even more to the gospel by that. They expect us to be different. Compare that with even one mission trip and I think the mission trip does more to further the gospel. God has used the most untalented and unexpected people throughout history to further His kingdom because they are wholly sold out to Him and allow Him to use them. I'm not saying being on espn is bad, it's not. But like Luconn and other have said, to say one game is more valuable than 1000 mission trips is absurd at best.

[Purple Haize]

Illogic:
Ok, so you wanna play the God card. Yes a thousand missions trips is more inline with Matt 5:16 than an ESPN game supposedly watched by millions. (Even if it is 'written on a plague inside Hancock!) I'll just list reasons/questions to ask before you make that statement:
1. What is the average viewership of the games on ESPN of schools our size? Heck, even the big time games. How many people tune in to watch.
2. Since a large portion of whatever audience is watching the game will be rooting for the other team, how does that benefit them spiritually and make LU look great? If we win, they will be upset, especially if it is on a 'bad call' or controversial play. If we beat them by 40 they will say we are bad sports. Heaven forbid, pardon the pun, we get an unsportsmanlike penalty or someone is caught on cam yelling a dirty word! And if we lose to them, there goes our "muscular Christianity".
3. Assuming our FB budget is currently $4 million, and that we would have to increase that to get to the level you espouse. Taking the difference between the two could do a WHOLE lot of good all of the world and reach more people than one football game. Exponential growth v Linear growth.
4. How, specifically, will we be spreading the gospel on ESPN? Between beer ads? Will our audible be miked and we use the Sermon on the Mount to change plays? Where as with a missions trip, it is rather obvious.
5. Stewardship. I know that we have more cash streams at LU than back in the 80's and 90's. But the athletic department does not make money. This is not a bad thing as MOST athletic departments lose money. HOwever, the higher up you go, the more money you lose. A good homework assignment is to look at the "Bowl Myth" that come out this time of year. They give the pay out of the various bowls and then the actual cost to the school of attending the bowl.
6. I don't forget the power of TV. I am well aware of it. It is the power of perception over reality.

[logic]

1. Boise State and VT drew 7.25 million homes this fall. As a comparison for that week, the MTV music video awards drew 7.16 million homes.

2. There is a reason why superbowl ads cost millions for :30 second spots.

3. Last year's BCS championship game between Bama and Texas drew 30.8 million viewers, second only to the Super Bowl and more than the following - A. Every NFL football game last year, every major league baseball game since 2004, every NBA game since 1998 and every college basketball game since 1994.

I can keep going if you want. You're an odd one for not wanting LU to move up and get a piece of the pie. If Boise can do it then so can we. And yes, an LU ad promoting the school and our mission between two beer commercials sounds exactly like something He would do.

[graceandknowledge]

Logic,
You make your point regarding how many people watch sports.....watching a commercial about attending Liberty is not the light. I have never seen an LU commercial talk about the life changing work of Jesus Christ so we have to assume in a commercial on ESPN regarding LU the content would be about LU. Can you imagine what 24.2 million dollars toward missions would do for the Kingdom? Maybe this would help......which is more profitable for the kingdom of heaven.....LU on ESPN or the amount of missionaries 24.2 million dollars could support in the mission field. Your statement really came across as minimizing God's ordained plan of going out (I am assuming this wasn't your intention but it did come across has being very ignorant). If your goal is to gain LU attention go with the ESPN but if you want to be about our Father's business I would go with the latter.

[Purple Haize]

Yes, please keep going and stop when you get to relevant facts.
You picked out 2 games, one of which (BSU v VT) was hyped since January and the national championship game. What about the rest of the season? What about schools of our size?
As for the TV ad, if you watch ANY football game they get to put in their own University ads during the broadcast. I am still waiting to see TCU, SMU, Utah, BYU or even ND focus on their religous affiliation.
"Piece of the Pie"? Where was that mentioned in Hancock....errrr.... Matthew 5:16? Is that a Beattitude that didn't make the cut? "Blessed are the Pie takers for theirs is the kingdomw of ESPN?" WHile everyone is a fan of pie, its the pie in the sky that is most attractive and least fulfilling.
While I applaud BSU efforts over the last few years and would have LOVED to see them gum up the BCS works, they are still the exception that proves the rule. The TRUE test of BSU will be the next few years as their upperclassmen graduate, they perhaps change coaches, etc. Can they consistently be in the Top 10? Top 25?
The dream is nice. But the "devil is in the details". What conference are we going to be invited into? Again, what do we offer to a BCS conference? Money? In what way? Sure we can 'come up with the 'entry fee' and whatever annual fees that may be required but what else? TV revenue? Attendance? Alumni support? Home stadium? (although I think we have Duke whipped on that one) What about tradition? Academic excellence?
And that is with OUT throwing the GOD card into play when it comes to stewardship, personal accountability of athletes, staff etc, pharasaical tendencies and the lot.

[SumItUp]

Logic, I was not trying to say that I'm not interested in moving up to FBS. I am 100% behind the school's goal to move up.

I love going to big time football games.
I also love going on mission trips and sharing my faith from God's word with someone that has never heard the Gospel message.

Both are exciting. One has eternal value.

[From the class of 09]

Logic,
You make your point regarding how many people watch sports.....watching a commercial about attending Liberty is not the light. I have never seen an LU commercial talk about the life changing work of Jesus Christ so we have to assume in commercial on ESPN regarding LU would be about LU. Can you imagine what 24.2 million dollars toward missions would do for the Kingdom? Maybe this would help......which is more profitable for the kingdom of heaven.....LU on ESPN or the amount of missionaries 24.2 million dollars could support in the mission field. Your statement really came across as minimizing God's ordained plan of going out (I realize this wasn't you intention but it did come across has being very ignorant). If your goal is to gain LU attentions go with the ESPN but if you want to be about our Father's business I would go with the latter.

LU function isn't to fund mission trips directly but to train champions for Christ. These champions are the people that will spend the rest of their lives going on and funding missions trips. We all have our different functions in the Kingdom and LU is doing it's part by growing the school (in this case through athletics). What if spending the money growing the schools athletic department allows the school to increase enrollment by another 5,000? what if 50 more kids are graduating with missions degrees each year (because of increased enrollment)? What if a kid is able to go to a school where he can get a mission degree and play football at the same time (Grant Jones anyone)?

Now I'm not trying to say it's wrong to give money to missions organizations I'm just saying there are many ways to advance the kingdom and IMO this is one of those times were there isn't really a right or wrong answer (just different).

[graceandknowledge]

I agree that there are many ways to serve the Kingdom. In regards to the "what if" game....what if we spent 24 million dollars on missions. As LU missionaries are out sharing the Gospel people repent and as a result want to grow in their faith and decide to attend LU. They in turn go out and the cycle reproduces itself. I wonder how many would agree that the latter would be a greater recruiting tool for the University than athletics. I am not advocating getting rid of athletics...just saying that athletics will never be the light that many people like to suggest that it is. Go to the games, hope we win, but to make it out more than that seems to be a bit trivial to me. I get nervous when we start to elevate athletics at LU as shining beacon for the Gospel.

[4everfsu]

I see more growth for the football team that can come out of missionary work thru LU. Think of BYU whose outreach into the world thru missionary work that leads athletes to attend that school.
Me I rather have LU have an impact to the world thru missionaries then ESPN.

[jbock13]

I agree that there are many ways to serve the Kingdom. In regards to the "what if" game....what if we spent 24 million dollars on missions. As LU missionaries are out sharing the Gospel people repent and as a result want to grow in their faith and decide to attend LU. They in turn go out and the cycle reproduces itself. I wonder how many would agree that the latter would be a greater recruiting tool for the University than athletics. I am not advocating getting rid of athletics...just saying that athletics will never be the light that many people like to suggest that it is. Go to the games, hope we win, but to make it out more than that seems to be a bit trivial to me. I get nervous when we start to elevate athletics at LU as shining beacon for the Gospel.

I agree with this. God forbid one kids gets caught at a drinking party, cheating on an exam, the media will never let it rest because we're a "christian" school. Of course, they don't bother knowing that about 50% of the students here were sent here by their parents to "straighten them out".

[Sly Fox]

I think most all of us agree that the football team can have an indirect impact on furthering the Kingdom by creating a platform. But it is not substitute or even in the same discussion of replacing missions efforts. The goal of the team to a certain small degree is to open the door for missions efforts to push through as part of the Great Commission.

Let the record show I have been a public FBS proponent dating back to the old LU Alumni Connections board (remember back that far, smoothie & stevev?) but I have been a bigger proponent of the Great Commission since I was 6. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

[jcmanson]

This thread is further evidence as to why I hate the offseason

[Schfourteenteen]

This thread is further evidence as to why I hate the offseason

Yes because the regular season went over really well.

BIG SOUTH CHAMPS!

[jcmanson]

This thread is further evidence as to why I hate the offseason

Yes because the regular season went over really well.

BIG SOUTH CHAMPS!

Better than this thread

[jbock13]

But we were talking about if Liberty could compete with the MAC and now it's changed to like 4 different topics

[Schfourteenteen]

This thread is further evidence as to why I hate the offseason

Yes because the regular season went over really well.

BIG SOUTH CHAMPS!

Better than this thread

Maybe. I think we just need someone to lighten the mood here.

[logic]

I picked those two games because I fully expect LU to have that kind of success in my lifetime - we will play Tech in front of 7 million homes on ESPN within the next 40 years - you heard it here first.

Again more people watch football than any other sport in the US. Look at the schools with the largest number of applicants - big time football factories. Can't recruit much better than millions watching your school on primetime.

"Athletics will never be the light that many people suggest it is...go to the games, hope we win, but no more than that"

This is small-time thinking. LU was never meant to be a small time place. A BCS national championship is the goal is it not?

Major college football is a light at many schools - Rocco is quoted as saying the first thing he thinks about when he hears a school is their football team. Whether one likes that or not, agrees or disagrees, many, many people in this country feel the same way and JJ is quoted as saying often times the only contact someone has with a school is from athletics, IE watching on TV.

Again there are Chistians out there that have no idea what Liberty is, where it is, and what it stands for. Does anyone here not want LU to be a household name?

[graceandknowledge]

Not sure, I thought the goal was to be the light. If we win the national championship and resemble nothing of Christ is it worth it? It seems your last post highlights my concern.....we talk about athletics in the context of being a platform but when we look closer at the reality and listen closer to what is being said and done, Christ and His kingdom may not even fall in the top 5 things of importance. I say let athletics be what is....competition but don't mock and use the name of Christ to justify the extreme amount of money and energy used to support it. It's embarrasing at best and shameful at worst.

[phoenix]

one national prime time ESPN game alone is worth a thousand mission trips with regards to spreading the light referred to in that passage.

This has got to be the absolute stupidest thing I've ever read on a message board, and I used to hang out on the Fightin' Fundamentalist Forums.
Beyond incredibly shortsighted (so people see a Christian school play football -- how exactly does that change their life? How does it bring them too Christ? Is ESPN selling LU a five minute spot at halftime to broadcast the Gospel??), it's also offensive to anyone who is currently on the mission field. "Oh, you're living in a country where they don't speak English, thousands of miles away from your family, so that you can preach the Gospel to those folks? Dummy -- just get them an ESPN package on cable and let them watch LU play football."

What good does it do for people to hear about Liberty if they don't hear the Gospel? I don't care if anybody hears of LU -- our mission is to tell them about Jesus, not Liberty.

[El Scorcho]

What good does it do for people to hear about Liberty if they don't hear the Gospel? I don't care if anybody hears of LU -- our mission is to tell them about Jesus, not Liberty.

While I don't disagree with you that the original post was hyperbolic, I think you're confusing the mission of Christians with the mission of Liberty University.

Liberty University's mission is very specific. (See: http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=6899)

Maintaining the vision of the founder, Dr. Jerry Falwell, Liberty University develops Christ-centered men and women with the values, knowledge, and skills essential to impact the world.

Through its residential and online programs, the University educates men and women who will make important contributions to their workplaces and communities, follow their chosen vocations as callings to glorify God, and fulfill the Great Commission.

Liberty's mission is not a direct spreading of the Gospel. It's a training of people to facilitate that. That training will, of course, include those people hearing the Gospel themselves should they choose to enroll. So, yes, Liberty is concerned with people hearing about Liberty. Marketing is necessary to fulfill the mission statement of the university. Athletics are really big (and effective) marketing.

[jbock13]

As the creator of the original post, this whole thread has gone to a whole different level.

I never said we should go to FBS.

All I said was "what if" we played in the MAC, could we compete. Nothing more, nothing less.

[From the class of 09]

This is such a dumb conversation. No one can say where more lives would be affected as there are simply too many variables. If LU athletics or LU as a school becomes just like every other private school then they have lost there purpose and vision. So back to football talk...

So something I was wondering about is how big a part does the Christian aspect of LU play into recruits coming to LU? Hoping for a little input from some of those a little closer with the football operations.

Honestly what made me think of it is one of Nebraska's big recruits for next year Aaron Green had this reason for picking Neb over a number of schools including his home state Texas

The Christian atmosphere at Nebraska is built on solid rock. It’s my main thing, that Nebraska’s the place where I can become a better man.

This atmosphere is created by Ron Brown (Tight ends coach and a throwback to Tom Osborne's time) who I've met and is just an awesome guy (he actually was in charge of FCA for the state when Bill Callahan came in). It really raised my interest as I know Nebraska's two current backs Rex Burkhead and Roy Helu also are outspoken about there faith and Burkhead came to Neb for similar reason's after he met Helu on his visit.

Now as much as I love Neb I know that we typically can't steal away Texas recruits as lets be honest when you grow up watching and growing up in Texas it's hard to sell the move North unless they really have something else to offer (and for Neb it's hard to sell the offense). I was talking with my Dad on how I think LU could be picking up these kids in the future when we have an FBS program they can come to built on a Christian foundation. I know we aren't there today but it does give me hope that someday we can recruit kids at that level with those hearts for the Lord.