[ToTheLeft]

I am saying that Jesus never indicates that we're to base anything off the old law, but rather to spread the gospel using the things he instructed. And that is the Greatest Commandment, the Great Commission, The Beautitudes, and all the other amazing, groundbreaking things that Jesus spoke while on Earth.

Haha, did you steal my notes for what I'm speaking on tomorrow night? Or what we're teaching through October and November?

No, but that's certainly a good place to speak from. The Bible as a whole is a great book obviously, but it never hurts to get back to what Jesus said and focus in on his ministry and preaching.

[SuperJon]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

[JLFJR]

I agree, SJ.

[TDDance234]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

True but your faith should shape the way you approach politics, yes?

[thepostman]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

True but your faith should shape the way you approach politics, yes?

yes of course it should, your faith should shape who you are if its as important to you as you say it is. There is just a balance to it all and keeping your emotions in check and not giving into the world and acting like the world to scare people into seeing moral issues your way.

[SuperJon]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

True but your faith should shape the way you approach politics, yes?

Oh absolutely. But for someone to think that politics are going to fix things is just not smart.

Our faith has to shape our politics and we're called to represent our faith that way. We just have to know that ultimately, nothing we do politically is going to stop sinful or evil actions.

[From the class of 09]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

True but your faith should shape the way you approach politics, yes?

Oh absolutely. But for someone to think that politics are going to fix things is just not smart.

Our faith has to shape our politics and we're called to represent our faith that way. We just have to know that ultimately, nothing we do politically is going to stop sinful or evil actions.

Agree

[ALUmnus]

Anyone who thinks that politics will ever solve moral issues is an idiot.

Our responsibility as Christians is not to make laws outlawing what we see to be sinful. Our responsibility as Christians is to teach people, while loving them where they are and how they are, what is sinful and how to turn away from it.

I don't think anyone ever made that claim. But it's not the solution to run in the opposite direction and expect us to totally withdraw from the political system, which is the tone of a lot of people on this board. If you're turned off by politics, fine, that's completely understandable, but whether you like it or not, it effects most aspects of your life, and when you don't help decide how policies and laws are shaped, then someone else will. In my mind that's the only reason the US is in the UN right now...if we leave, what are we left with?

[SuperJon]

I'm not saying we don't try to do things. I was saying that in response to what the Liberty Council was trying to push from that e-mail. They're trying to twist and turn facts the best they can in an effort to get certain laws passed. I'm not for that at all. I'm for trying to get the laws passed with integrity and facts and methods that don't run contrary to the way we should live as Christians.

[ValuesVoter]

A. If Don't Ask Don't Tell is overturned it WILL NOT cause people to leave the military and cause a draft. Stating things like this and sending it to college students is telling half truths which is half lies..Last I check we aren't suppose to be deceptive as Christians. B. It will not cause chaos. Will it cause some issues? Of course it will, but it will not cause chaos.

Both of these happen to be your opinions. My point is and has always been that you have not proven the statements Liberty Counsel made to be factually inaccurate.

I'm a graduate of LU, but I am connected to Liberty Counsel in that I whole-heartedly agree with their purpose and their efforts, and I'm pretty familiar with those efforts because I get their Liberty Alerts.

Someone else asked if I believe we have freedom of religion... yes, I do. The First Amendment guarantees it; however, that doesn't mean that we as Christians should not elect those who are like-minded and should not legislate based on principles grounded in Scripture. I hope that answered the question.

[thepostman]

A. If Don't Ask Don't Tell is overturned it WILL NOT cause people to leave the military and cause a draft. Stating things like this and sending it to college students is telling half truths which is half lies..Last I check we aren't suppose to be deceptive as Christians. B. It will not cause chaos. Will it cause some issues? Of course it will, but it will not cause chaos.

Both of these happen to be your opinions. My point is and has always been that you have not proven the statements Liberty Counsel made to be factually inaccurate.

I'm a graduate of LU, but I am connected to Liberty Counsel in that I whole-heartedly agree with their purpose and their efforts, and I'm pretty familiar with those efforts because I get their Liberty Alerts.

Someone else asked if I believe we have freedom of religion... yes, I do. The First Amendment guarantees it; however, that doesn't mean that we as Christians should not elect those who are like-minded and should not legislate based on principles grounded in Scripture. I hope that answered the question.

Well if that is my opinion, then what they stated in their e-mail was THEIR opinion. There is nowhere in the e-mail that stated that in their opinion this is what will happen. They tried to play it off as facts.

I feel that since I am currently in the military I have a bit of a better perspective then some special interest group that is trying to cause fear in college students about the draft being reinstated.

[ValuesVoter]

Well if that is my opinion, then what they stated in their e-mail was THEIR opinion. There is nowhere in the e-mail that stated that in their opinion this is what will happen. They tried to play it off as facts.

I feel that since I am currently in the military I have a bit of a better perspective then some special interest group that is trying to cause fear in college students about the draft being reinstated.

That would be true, if they didn't base their information on the Military Times Poll (statistical information) that I found and linked earlier. And, though I may not be active duty military, I know quite a few activity duty military personnel who agree with Liberty Counsel.

I can appreciate that you have an opinion that is opposed to the ideas that Liberty Counsel put forth, but that doesn't disprove their position -- they never said 100% of the armed services agreed with them. In fact, the number was closer to 1/4 of the military.

[twise]

So, I've read these posts and I would like to first respond to those people that would rather see Liberty Counsel pursue the stopping of abortion than "Don't Ask Don't Tell." I've been a Liberty student for almost 4 years now and I know a thing or two about Liberty Counsel. They are actually strongly opposed to abortion. If you don't believe me, look under the "About Us" tab on www.LC.org. Right in the first sentence it says they're dedicated to the sanctity of human life. So, it's not that they don't care about abortion; rather, they are simply allocating the majority of their resources to the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" issue.
Back to the real topic of this blog though. As Christians I don't believe we can sit around in good conscience and watch the degradation of our moral being. As Christians, we have to stand up for what is right regardless of popular culture. Further, if we fail to stand up for what is right; we may as well support the very thing we are in opposition to. Romans 1 clearly states that homosexuality is against nature and is a sin. So much so that God gave the Romans over to a "reprobate mind" according the King James Version. I don't know about you all, but if I can prevent that from happening here in the United States, I'm going to! And I'm going to use whatever avenue is readily available. Currently, it's making and preserving laws. If tomorrow it's using the media, then so be it!

[shoremen91]

If you are that naive to believe that LC doesn't have a political agenda, I have some land in the Arctic I need to sell...Also , if we are "anti-sin" what about troops who smoke pot or look at porn? Do they get dismissed out of the armed services. What about those with STD's, are they to be let go. The biggest issue I have is we are treating people who struggle with homosexuality as outcasts instead of those struggling with a deep sin. Not saying that you need to put people in charge of childrens ministries but these are adult men and women. A homosexual in my work place is not going to cause me to stumble into being in love with another man. If my guard is down, an attractive woman might. Let's not let them into the armed services either ...

First of all, I myself believe few of those words you just put into my mouth. In no way did I claim that LC was apolitical; they litigate for conservative causes, for crying out loud. Their motivation is far from strictly political, however- it's rooted in their Christian morals. As such, and as I stated pretty clearly in my post, Christians are not anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion, etc. specitifally above all else- we are anti-sin. Liberty Counsel is there to prevent morally void policies and laws from gaining a foothold in courts and legislatures first and foremost, however. As a Christian, though, I agree that my efforts should not be to treat homosexuality, adultery, or any sin as different because of its specific nature. I acknowledge that as a human, I myself am in sin equally, but in different ways, as a homosexual. I believe that the hierarchy of seriousness of certain sins over others has lost feasibility among today's Christians, however, and that the stigma surrounding homosexuals will soon lose its force--but, the seriousness of any sin is still undiminished in the eyes of God as well as fellow believers.

[thepostman]

Well if that is my opinion, then what they stated in their e-mail was THEIR opinion. There is nowhere in the e-mail that stated that in their opinion this is what will happen. They tried to play it off as facts.

I feel that since I am currently in the military I have a bit of a better perspective then some special interest group that is trying to cause fear in college students about the draft being reinstated.

That would be true, if they didn't base their information on the Military Times Poll (statistical information) that I found and linked earlier. And, though I may not be active duty military, I know quite a few activity duty military personnel who agree with Liberty Counsel.

I can appreciate that you have an opinion that is opposed to the ideas that Liberty Counsel put forth, but that doesn't disprove their position -- they never said 100% of the armed services agreed with them. In fact, the number was closer to 1/4 of the military.

If you have read my posts like you have said you did then you would know I do not disagree with the LC's stance on this issue. Don't Ask Don't Tell is not a bad policy and not a policy this is unconstitutional. My gripe has been with the fear mongering filled e-mail that I and many others received.

The fact that you still have not figured out my stance on the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy speaks volumes

[Green Monkey]

Well if that is my opinion, then what they stated in their e-mail was THEIR opinion. There is nowhere in the e-mail that stated that in their opinion this is what will happen. They tried to play it off as facts.

I feel that since I am currently in the military I have a bit of a better perspective then some special interest group that is trying to cause fear in college students about the draft being reinstated.

That would be true, if they didn't base their information on the Military Times Poll (statistical information) that I found and linked earlier. And, though I may not be active duty military, I know quite a few activity duty military personnel who agree with Liberty Counsel.

I can appreciate that you have an opinion that is opposed to the ideas that Liberty Counsel put forth, but that doesn't disprove their position -- they never said 100% of the armed services agreed with them. In fact, the number was closer to 1/4 of the military.

I looked at the poll and found some analysis on it. According to this link: http://www.palmcenter.org/publications/ ... d+analysis
the poll was not conducted on a random sample of military personal. This explains why the actual Military Times pollhttp://militarytimes.com/news/2008/12/1 ... poll_DADT/refers to those surveyed as "respondents." A poll conducted in this manner cannot be proven to be scientifically sound, and because of its methodology, should not be used to formulate actual policy. I'm not saying that the poll is not interesting or informative, but you should keep in mind that the respondents to these types of surveys are those who are most passionate about the topic. Also, there is often a difference between what people say on a survey and what they do when confronted with the actual situation.

Therefore, because the poll is not scientifically sound, the Liberty Counsel still has not met the burden of proof required for their email to qualify as "not fear mongering."

[El Scorcho]

As Christians, we have to stand up for what is right regardless of popular culture. Further, if we fail to stand up for what is right; we may as well support the very thing we are in opposition to. Romans 1 clearly states that homosexuality is against nature and is a sin. So much so that God gave the Romans over to a "reprobate mind" according the King James Version. I don't know about you all, but if I can prevent that from happening here in the United States, I'm going to! And I'm going to use whatever avenue is readily available. Currently, it's making and preserving laws. If tomorrow it's using the media, then so be it!

Why aren't the Christians who support theocratic law pushing to outlaw other sins? Why aren't they pushing for silence from members of the military for other sins? Why do we tolerate the legality of pre-marital sex? Adultery? Divorce? Why are the marriage amendments we're asked to push for so narrow in their scope? Why don't we address all of these issues with those laws? They're all clearly sinful and outside of God's biblical plan for humanity. What's the difference?

[thepostman]

As Christians, we have to stand up for what is right regardless of popular culture. Further, if we fail to stand up for what is right; we may as well support the very thing we are in opposition to. Romans 1 clearly states that homosexuality is against nature and is a sin. So much so that God gave the Romans over to a "reprobate mind" according the King James Version. I don't know about you all, but if I can prevent that from happening here in the United States, I'm going to! And I'm going to use whatever avenue is readily available. Currently, it's making and preserving laws. If tomorrow it's using the media, then so be it!

Why aren't the Christians who support theocratic law pushing to outlaw other sins? Why aren't they pushing for silence from members of the military for other sins? Why do we tolerate the legality of pre-marital sex? Adultery? Divorce? Why are the marriage amendments we're asked to push for so narrow in their scope? Why don't we address all of these issues with those laws? They're all clearly sinful and outside of God's biblical plan for humanity. What's the difference?

great post.

I think the ultimate thing that is trying to be done as Jon said earlier is we are getting lazy and trying to get the government to fix the mistakes we have made as a church. If we were doing everything the way God has laid it out for us to do as a church then the rest of the country would see that.

Sin will always exist, but when a church as a whole is sticking to Biblical truths and loving sinners and not allowing modern day pharisees run the churches, that is when this country will change. Until we stop focusing so much attention on politics and more attention to reaching out as a Church in love nothing will ever change, it will only get worse.

[JLFJR]

Everyone on this board should take the time to watch today's Convocation in streaming video when it is posted on liberty.edu. It focuses this debate where it should be focused. Much of the discussion here is a rabbit trail IMO.

[Sly Fox]

Heard my former Ohio congressman Bob McEwen was strong today. One of my best friends growing up was his Chief of Staff when he served in the House. Then after redistricting under Clinton forced McEwen out, my buddy was current LU Law prof Ken Blackwell's elections guy when he served as Secretary of State. So even though I have been a Texan for two decades, I have followed McEwen's career closely.

How is that for another rabbit trail.

[thepostman]

Everyone on this board should take the time to watch today's Convocation in streaming video when it is posted on liberty.edu. It focuses this debate where it should be focused. Much of the discussion here is a rabbit trail IMO.

Will do and I look forward to it

[From the class of 09]

Much of the discussion here is a rabbit trail IMO.

I think that more or less sums up every thread on here

[Sly Fox]

Here's the link for Bob McEwen's convo message ...

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=9002



Checking the schedule, I see Phil Cooke is going to be speaking Monday. You guys need to show up for this guy. He runs a film company in L.A. and is arguably the most influential media consultant in the Christian world. He gets communications & branding like few others in the business. He is clearly not the typical convo speaker.

I see the schedule still list 'Special Guest' for the Homecoming convo. I assume that just means they haven't publicly announced who is coming yet. No?

Oh yeah, that is vintage McEwen.

[mosborne]

Since we are on the topic of homosexuality in the military and some on this post continue to ponder why we as Christians should care about this issue, check this out:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010093 ... -away-gays

Here we have a small business who has paid all of the necessary fees and rent payments in order to operate in this public vendors market, who now may lose their location because a homosexual group wanted to force them to make a product for a cause that they did not believe in.

Can anyone on this thread honestly defend that?

Remember that if the government begins to give positive affirmation to homosexual behavior, whether it be through a repeal of DADT or through the granting of marriage licenses, that government then must give the rights and privileges of those institutions to those who practice homosexuality. So if a wedding chapel refuses to marry a homosexual couple then that chapel can be charged on grounds of discrimination. If a gym only decides to offer discounts for married couples including only a man and a woman, then that gym can be potentially run out of business.

We as Christians should be concerned about this, because we believe that the power of God can free someone from homosexuality, so then we have an obligation to preach the gospel and the bondage breaking power that comes with it. Homosexual activists have gone to extreme lengths to stop other homosexuals from becoming free of that lifestyle. Do not think that they will not use a distorted version of the law to do so.

Lastly, homosexuality has been generally looked at as negative behavior in civilized society. So far throughout the history of our country, homosexuality has been frowned upon and even been legislated against. These attitudes and laws were based on principles about marriage and conduct that predate our nation's existence. So logically, if the government is now going to take what is considered negative behavior, and shift the law and society to make it a positive behavior, then it will take force, as witnessed in Indianapolis.

[ToTheLeft]

Since we are on the topic of homosexuality in the military and some on this post continue to ponder why we as Christians should care about this issue, check this out:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010093 ... -away-gays

Here we have a small business who has paid all of the necessary fees and rent payments in order to operate in this public vendors market, who now may lose their location because a homosexual group wanted to force them to make a product for a cause that they did not believe in.

Can anyone on this thread honestly defend that?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. It is, in fact, proof of the point many here are trying to make. This turned into a "If you're not for this right wing anti-gay agenda, then you're a gay lover and need to be told why you're wrong."

The main issue people had was the way LC presented the issue, and the attitude towards homosexuals that is underlying to the whole issue, which you continue to show.

What do you believe your post what trying to show? Are you trying to advocate that since homosexuals do things you don't agree with, that they shouldn't be allowed to serve openly in the military? Do you think that homosexuals are the only ones who take legal action when discriminated against?

Liberty Counsel fights ON BEHALF of Christians who do this EXACT SAME THING when they are discriminated against (Take legal action to defend themselves). So your point in fact debunks the very organization you originally tried to defend!

But like I said, it points to a sickening underlying attitude towards homosexuals.