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By TDDance234
Registration Days Posts
#320488
WASHINGTON – Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked an effort to repeal the ban on gays from serving openly in the military, handing gay rights groups a defeat in their last chance any time soon to overturn the law known as "don't ask, don't tell."

Democrats fell short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation, which authorized $726 billion in defense spending. The vote was 56-43.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, had been seen as the crucial 60th vote because she supports overturning the military ban. But Collins sided with her GOP colleagues in arguing that Republicans weren't given sufficient leeway to offer amendments to the wide-ranging policy bill.
However, my favorite part of the article is the title: "Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban."
Love that bi-partisan journalism.

CLICK HERE FOR THE ARTICLE
By thepostman
#320976
As a current military member I hear about this issue often so in return I have formed some opinions on the issue.

It has kind of turned into a joke and your everyday troop isn't concerned with washington politics. There is some concern with sleep arangements in deployed areas, but really that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

As a Christian I believe homosexuality to be a sin just as viewing pornography, cheating on your wife, pre-marital sex are sins.

With that said I am so blown away that this is THE issue for the majority of the right wing. I get more angry we have killed millions of babies then someone who is gay who joins the military...actually that doesn't make me angry at all.

What would make me angry is if it became a distraction, if it did proper discipline should be taken. Aside from that if the military is going to take a stance on this then they should remove all sexuality from the military. Good luck with that one..

I think this post was completely all over the place, but I just got home from work and my brain is about shot...so hopefully this makes a little bit of sense
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#321004
The ferocity of the anti-gay rights agenda of the Liberty Counsel, and Matt Staver, is mindboggling. Here is the gay agenda: to live our lives as normally as possible with the same rights and priveleges as straight people. Someone please forward that to Liberty Counsel.
By TDDance234
Registration Days Posts
#321008
ATrain wrote:The ferocity of the anti-gay rights agenda of the Liberty Counsel, and Matt Staver, is mindboggling. Here is the gay agenda: to live our lives as normally as possible with the same rights and priveleges as straight people. Someone please forward that to Liberty Counsel.
What's stopping you?
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#321021
thepostman wrote:Aside from that if the military is going to take a stance on this then they should remove all sexuality from the military. Good luck with that one..
Adultery is also forbidden in the military, is it not? You can actually be arrested for it. I have no problem with the military setting their own standards, and those standards being different than society's at-large.

And who is it that's really trying to make this a social engineering experiment and pushing an agenda? Maybe, just maybe, it's the ones trying to make the changes.

"But other militaries do it and they don't have issues..." Please don't make this argument either, you'll just look foolish.

Look, I understand that people get really tired of politics, but to suggest that you shouldn't let your religious beliefs influence or steer your politics is taking things to the opposite extreme. I don't think you'll like what you see if we all sat on our hands and let everyone else have their way.
By thepostman
#321022
It is but its not at all enforced like the don't ask, don't tell policy. you get a slap on the wrist and move on. Its not enforced because that would cut the military in half

also, I was not suggesting we shouldn't allow our religious beliefs influence our political beliefs, but straight up lies being spewed out of the mouths of the Liberty Counsel is far from what a Christian should be doing.

I just will never understand why more Christians get more fired up about homosexuality, especially with the sexual sins that are legal in this country, yet there are still millions of babies being murdered..
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#321023
I think the abortion issue is much more important to most Christians than gays in the military, it just happens to be in the headlines right now. We don't have to be one-issue people.
By thepostman
#321068
I am not talking about just gays in the military I am talking about the gay marriage/rights debate that has taken precedence over everything these days, its just kind of ridiculous to me.
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By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321078
Christians won't accomplish anything trying to legislate and make legally wrong the things they believe to be sin. They're only going to alienate lost souls that they could be bringing into their churches and counseling. Advancing a moral legislative agenda is almost like conceding that we can't do our jobs as the church and we need the government to help. And if people believe (and I heard it mentioned in convo and elsewhere by Christian Right leaders) that gay marriage would be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in terms of us no longer being "God's chosen people" (don't buy this anyways, I believe that God can and does bless the American people by allowing us freedoms but I feel in no way are we chosen like the Israelites were), they obviously haven't looked around America lately, and seen the myriad of sin and depravity that exists in secular (and even some Christian) culture. Thinking that homosexuality would make things "worse" in God's eyes is basically saying that God feels more strongly against homosexuality than other sins, which isn't anywhere in my Bible.

That being said, I don't think that we should just let everything be legal. Particularly abortion, which despite my libertarian stances on most things, I believe is murder which has been illegal since the nation was founded. Being homosexual in no way hinders the ability to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness of anyone else. I don't think it's an issue we need to battle against at a legislative level. Abortion on the other hand limits all of those things, both for the baby who will never live outside the womb and the mother that the "operation" puts in danger.

I just think we need to re-prioritize.

(And I am not accusing anyone of thinking gay rights issues were more important to Christians than abortion, just pointing out why it should be first and foremost, and why gay rights is something not really worth fighting on Capitol Hill)
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#321083
Take Christians out of the legislative process...what do you think happens? It's naive to think that Christians in politics are out to force everyone into being a Christian by passing laws. The Holy Spirit draws souls to Christ, not our actions, but it kind of falls on us to govern ourselves, and that includes our country, which as citizens we are responsible for. Are we to normalize and promote homosexuality? Because that is what's happening. People are seeing that some things in our society have just gone too far, and that the stick in the stand keeps getting moved to the left (see what I did there?), so they're trying to draw things back. What's wrong with that?

I don't see that it's a problem that Christians are actually paying attention to these things and wanting to do something about it. The problem I see is that they are dropping other Biblical responsiblities in the effort (missions, evangelizing, discipling, helping the poor/widows/orphans, raising our families, church discipline, sound doctrine). There are more than enough of us to work on everything.

On a side note: yes there are other sins besides homosexuality. But that's a smokescreen to avoid the issue. An entire lifestyle that is in direct disobedience and deliberate defiance of God's Word is not something to be taken lightly. A-train, I'm not going to go into a debate on this, I'm just trying to point out that this statement is a cop-out.
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#321085
Not going to debate the immorality/morality of a homosexual relationship, we'll agree to disagree ALUmnus, but how is moving the stick back to the right on gay rights going to accomplish anything? In my opinion, a person with the qualifications (degree, experience, etc...) should be able to work where they want to regardless of who, if anyone, they choose to have a relationship with, with exceptions being granted to religous organizations. This includes the military. Just don't let two husbands/wives be in the same unit together, just like you don't let husband and wife serve in the same unit together.
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#321092
Serving in the military is not a right, and the military has always been allowed to discriminate against who it allows to serve. Some people say that gays in the military doesn't effect anything, others strongly disagree. Is national defense something we really want to play around with? And nowhere did I say gay "rights" were involved. No one is being denied Constitutional rights. I hate to use the word because people tire of hearing it, but a lot of it's about agenda, and about morality.
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By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321096
Edit: Meh, not worth it...
Last edited by ToTheLeft on September 24th, 2010, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321097
Edit: Meh, not worth it.
Last edited by ToTheLeft on September 24th, 2010, 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By thepostman
#321099
there may not be an official don't ask, don't tell policy on adultery but its pretty much implied because if the wrong people hear about, paper work will have to be written and nobody likes doing that...but you're right its not to the extent homosexuality is handled..

I will say this...regardless of my stance on the don't ask don't tell policy, its not unconstitutional no matter what lady gaga tells you.

My problem isn't with the don't ask, don't tell policy be upheld, its with Christian groups like the Liberty Counsel misleading the public on facts.
User avatar
By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321103
thepostman wrote:there may not be an official don't ask, don't tell policy on adultery but its pretty much implied because if the wrong people hear about, paper work will have to be written and nobody likes doing that...but you're right its not to the extent homosexuality is handled..

I will say this...regardless of my stance on the don't ask don't tell policy, its not unconstitutional no matter what lady gaga tells you.

My problem isn't with the don't ask, don't tell policy be upheld, its with Christian groups like the Liberty Counsel misleading the public on facts.
Yeah, that was my original issue here too. I got a bit sidetracked with my own political agenda. 8)

I deleted my most recent posts, no need to get into this debate. Sorry guys. :P
By LibertyinTruth
Registration Days
#321629
Thepostman, I’m curious exactly how the facts were misrepresented?” According to the AP, the CDC has just come out with a study indicating that one in every five homosexual men has HIV/Aids. HIV can lay dormant for an extended period and not show up in tests. With the need for battle field transfusions in combat, this places troops at risk of contracting the virus, needlessly, through a blood transfusion. Even the FDA will not allow men who have s*x with men to give blood. I care more about our troops than I do political correctness. Don’t you?

I can’t believe we’re even having this debate. Do homosexuals and lesbians get their own barracks, or do “gay” men shower and sleep alongside those to whom they may be attracted? What of the fact that a Military Times poll indicates that up to 24 percent of currently enlisted personnel said that they would exit the military if DADT is repealed.

I have a friend who served in the Army. While he was there a young man was accused of fondling other men as they slept in the barracks and hitting on them regularly. A huge investigation ensued and it very negatively affected troop morale and unit cohesion. He was let go under DADT.

If you’d like to read a great article that explains why Christians focus on the issue of homosexual sin, read this piece by Matt Barber entitled “Homosexuality: What’s All the Fuss.” http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58439

Scripture tells us that “the wages of sin is death.” Here’s another great verse that’s applicable: "Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." —James 1:15.

Why do we feel like we as Christians have to be nicer than Jesus? Love without truth is hate. The least compassionate thing I can think of is to NOT lovingly share with a person that their sin lifestyle will result in physical, emotional and, most importantly, spiritual destruction. Didn’t Christ say something about being a “luke warm” Christian? Yes, we’ll be hated for it and called silly names like “homophobe”… But they hate us because they first hated Him.
By shoremen91
Registration Days
#321637
In response to Atrain and thepostman: why the animosity toward Liberty Counsel and Mat Staver? They're not anti-gay or anti-abortion, they're anti-sin. No sin is greater than the next. Homosexuals and heterosexuals alike have the right to life, liberty and property guaranteed them by the Constitution, and that's the most they should be guaranteed by law. Anything else is reverse discrimination.
By ValuesVoter
Registration Days Posts
#321638
I’m actually pretty confused. So many people posted that what Liberty Counsel said was inaccurate, but nobody’s really refuted it. We have one person who is apparently willing to strip down and sleep with men who may be sexually attracted to him, but nobody’s shown that the statistics Liberty Counsel used were inaccurate. I looked them up to see if they could be corroborated. They come from a Military Times Poll. Here’s a link: http://www.militaryculturecoalition.com ... yTimesPoll

That website contains some other interesting polling and articles about homosexuals joining the military too.

I think it’s obvious that there are homosexuals who serve in the military. I have friends who have experienced having to go through boot camp with homosexuals. They’ve said it’s awkward and uncomfortable, but they’ve also said that they gain some comfort in knowing that the homosexuals cannot make overt sexual advances toward other people in their units because of the current law. That’s why, even though homosexuals, who lets be honest, don’t make up that much of the military, were able to serve openly, members of the military would be even less comfortable and even more likely to want out. I wouldn’t want to go through boot camp with a homosexual. I don’t mind ministering to them, but I think my ministry may be complicated a bit if they’d just seen me naked because of the communal showers situation.

Also, all (or most of us) agree that homosexual conduct is sinful, and if you question this, here’s Romans 1:24-27: “Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

Since we can agree on this, why can’t we agree that it should not be condoned by our government, our military, and our culture? I read Oswald Chamber’s My Utmost for His Highest this morning, and here’s a portion of it: “Our Lord's attitude to this man is one of severe discouragement because He knew what was in man. We would have said - "Fancy losing the opportunity of winning that man!" Fancy bringing about him a north wind that froze him and "turned him away discouraged!" Never apologize for your Lord. The words of the Lord hurt and offend until there is nothing left to hurt or offend. Jesus Christ has no tenderness whatever toward anything that is ultimately going to ruin a man in the service of God. Our Lord's answers are based not on caprice, but on a knowledge of what is in man. If the Spirit of God brings to your mind a word of the Lord that hurts you, you may be sure that there is something He wants to hurt to death.”

May I remind you all that, as Christians, we have dual roles on earth. We are to be the salt and the light. (Matthew 5:13-16) As salt, we are called to have a preserving quality. We are called to preserve our culture. This doesn’t mean calling what’s wrong right and what’s right wrong. (Isaiah 5:20) This means standing up as Christ did and condemning sin. People cannot know they are in need of a Savior until they know they are sinful men and women. Our laws should help direct people to the understanding of where they have sinned. As one commentator put it, “the law is a right/wrong message machine.”

This is a spiritual battle. It’s not about the homosexuals, it’s about a culture of sin. And though perhaps some homosexuals want to live their sinful lifestyles in peace (which they will never attain while remaining in those lifestyles), a vast majority of homosexuals belong to activist groups like the Human Rights Campaign. Understanding that nobody has a right to serve in the military, where have homosexuals ever been denied their rights? They have the right to marry, they simply must marry someone of the opposite sex, they don’t lose that right by being homosexual, they simply choose not to exercise it. Where have they been denied rights? It seems to me that they want more rights. They want someone who murders a homosexual to be punished more severely than someone who murders a 90 year-old grandmother. They want to be able to marry whomever they choose, but they certainly don’t agree with polygamy, incestuous marriages, or marriages to family pets or ficus trees.

Lastly, I’m concerned that religious liberties are losing ground to “gay rights.” Churches are now required to allow homosexuals to marry in their sanctuaries, Christian videographers are being forced to film homosexual marriages, transgendered persons are forcing doctors of faith to perform sex-changes on them, and there are so many other documented cases of people of faith being forced (through the court systems) to cater to the whims of homosexuals. This sounds shocking, right? Look it up. These cases are real and Liberty Counsel is simply trying to be salt unto the world – to secure the rights of Christians – to secure their rights to share the Gospel. If these types of liberties are being stripped of Christians in the civilian realm, do you not think that if the military allows homosexuals to join, that they won’t create policies that prevent military service members from saying things that may be offensive to the homosexuals (in the interest of unit cohesion, of course). Do you really think that military chaplains will be able to counsel service members struggling with homosexual attraction to turn away from the sin? Do you really think the chaplains will be able to preach on Romans 1:24-27?
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By Kolzilla41
Registration Days Posts
#321708
shoremen91 wrote:In response to Atrain and thepostman: why the animosity toward Liberty Counsel and Mat Staver? They're not anti-gay or anti-abortion, they're anti-sin. No sin is greater than the next. Homosexuals and heterosexuals alike have the right to life, liberty and property guaranteed them by the Constitution, and that's the most they should be guaranteed by law. Anything else is reverse discrimination.
If you are that naive to believe that LC doesn't have a political agenda, I have some land in the Arctic I need to sell...Also , if we are "anti-sin" what about troops who smoke pot or look at porn? Do they get dismissed out of the armed services. What about those with STD's, are they to be let go. The biggest issue I have is we are treating people who struggle with homosexuality as outcasts instead of those struggling with a deep sin. Not saying that you need to put people in charge of childrens ministries but these are adult men and women. A homosexual in my work place is not going to cause me to stumble into being in love with another man. If my guard is down, an attractive woman might. Let's not let them into the armed services either :roll: ...
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By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321717
:( :oops:

This is just sad. I'm really ashamed. I'm going to have to stop reading these kinds of posts.
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By ToTheLeft
Registration Days Posts
#321718
LibertyinTruth wrote:Thepostman, I’m curious exactly how the facts were misrepresented?” According to the AP, the CDC has just come out with a study indicating that one in every five homosexual men has HIV/Aids. HIV can lay dormant for an extended period and not show up in tests. With the need for battle field transfusions in combat, this places troops at risk of contracting the virus, needlessly, through a blood transfusion. Even the FDA will not allow men who have s*x with men to give blood. I care more about our troops than I do political correctness. Don’t you?
... and your point? There's a higher percentage of black men with HIV than white men, should we prevent blacks from joining the Armed Forces? Let's just have a straight white Christian Armed forces!

This is all ridiculous, it's mind boggling.
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