[vthokies20]

I agree completely. I have no problem with grm asking the question. He is here when we win saying congratulations and he's here for the losses saying tough loss. We know his personal opinions but he's proving to be a Liberty supporter above all. It's the other people that come along when these questions are asked that are the annoying ones.

Ok just between the 10 of left who passionately care(d) about LU basketball for more than a social outing.
Some like Super Jon will always be in the JB three blind mice band. Certainly JB would tell the truth about the events There is no accountability for the handling of our coaches and families just this is the way big time athletics operate. PR statements don't need to be valid because JB is the new authority.

RD brought passion to game. Was relentless in recruiting and his teams played sound basketball with intensity. He was on whoever was soft in performance. Go watch even his Girl's AAU teams play...it is exciting. He literally in five years had LU from the toilet bowl to a serious mid major roster, with a NCAA bid, two seconds and a third as well. JB asked for RD's loyalty and support only to sell him out. You stand by your man and I will always defend RD.

So to say a number of us in the community are going to walk hand in hand with JB never. He screwed up a program and probably cost us one or more championships. Support DL yes, hope LU can return to a top three program consistently . It should we all the resources be provided

Finally to say I make RD look bad is a crock...keep JB in place and RD will look better as the days past.

[SuperJon]

I've never once talked to Jeff Barber about the coaching decision in 2007.

Your only argument is the wins and losses. This move was never and has never been about wins and losses. There is so much more that goes into a program than winning and losing.

Jeff Barber chose to allow Coach Dunton to coach the 06-07 season even after being asked to make a coaching change when he first arrived. He didn't think it was fair to let someone go without having a full season to evaluate him. Dr. Falwell allowed him, against his original wishes, to keep Coach Dunton for the next year to give him a plan of improvement and to fully evaluate him.

You also mentioned Coach Royer and tried to lump that coaching decision as "ruining" Coach Royer as well. What you either don't know or refuse to acknowledge is that Coach Royer thanked the athletic director for how he handled the situation at the end of his tenure.

You can keep bringing up this wins and losses and every other played out argument that you have but the truth is our program is in much, much better shape now than it was in 2007.

[olldflame]

In 5 years, RD's relentless recruiting produced a grand total of 5 student athletes who came as Freshmen and played 4 years.

Larry Blair
Russell Monroe
Rell Porter
Anthony Smith
Tyler Baker (well, he didn't play all those years but it wasn't his fault)

Wanna bet that even with the departures we have had, when it's all said and done we will have that many or more that were recruited by McKay in his 2 years? We still have 7 on the roster. This includes Perez and JVP, who signed in the early period last year before RMK left.

[flamesfilmguy]

I spoke too soon.

[vthokies20]

In 5 years, RD's relentless recruiting produced a grand total of 5 student athletes who came as Freshmen and played 4 years.

Larry Blair
Russell Monroe
Rell Porter
Anthony Smith
Tyler Baker (well, he didn't play all those years but it wasn't his fault)

Wanna bet that even with the departures we have had, when it's all said and done we will have that many or more that were recruited by McKay in his 2 years? We still have 7 on the roster. This includes Perez and JVP, who signed in the early period last year before RMK left.

Ryan Mantlo, Gabe Martin, Leo lightbourne, Alex McLean, Dwight, TJ, Brian Woodson, Damien were
transfer talents.....maybe we can get a few more that people will come to watch. Welcome to D1.
Don't let the cheese get you.

[vthokies20]

I've never once talked to Jeff Barber about the coaching decision in 2007.

Your only argument is the wins and losses. This move was never and has never been about wins and losses. There is so much more that goes into a program than winning and losing.

Jeff Barber chose to allow Coach Dunton to coach the 06-07 season even after being asked to make a coaching change when he first arrived. He didn't think it was fair to let someone go without having a full season to evaluate him. Dr. Falwell allowed him, against his original wishes, to keep Coach Dunton for the next year to give him a plan of improvement and to fully evaluate him.

You also mentioned Coach Royer and tried to lump that coaching decision as "ruining" Coach Royer as well. What you either don't know or refuse to acknowledge is that Coach Royer thanked the athletic director for how he handled the situation at the end of his tenure.

You can keep bringing up this wins and losses and every other played out argument that you have but the truth is our program is in much, much better shape now than it was in 2007.

You are sorely mistaken on all accounts! Ask Royer what he thinks of JB and you will get a real eye opener.
Every Coach is going to have some highs and lows. Certainly the boo birds are quick to voice. Administrators can use those moments to stand behind or assassin. JB never supported but told lies and did underhanded things to discredit even former VP's have told me of JB tactics. But you must be his pr agent. The only way we are better now is in $$ budget. Two years ago you were the RMK campaign manager...he was the answer . Three years later were celebrating a 6th seed and claiming victory. Three Blind Mice

[BJWilliams]

Couldnt you guys just keep this to PMs instead of polluting almost every public discussion with this mindless petulent bickering?

[olldflame]

Nothing private or personal about this BJ. Checkers has been very open in his criticizim of JB based on his belief that RD was a highly successful coach who had our program moving in a positive direction and JB's decision to not renew his contract "ruined a program". Some of us are trying to bring some reality to the situation.

"Welcome to D1." Checkers, you say that as if running a program where most of your good players are transfers as opposed to HS recruits is the normal, accepted practice. It isn't, and it certainly isn't in programs which have had a consistent track record of success. Look at places like Winthrop, and you see the occasional transfer along with a whole bunch of kids who played there for 4 years.

I don't want to take anything away from the contributions of the transfer students who have played for Liberty, and I'm not saying there isn't a place for the occasional transfer in the future, but if our purpose is to build champions for Christ, it seems we should be focusing on young men who can start from the beginning and have the total Liberty experience. I'm very happy to see that is how things are being done now, and I'm confident that ultimately the result will be better results on and off the court.

[grm]

...Jeff Barber chose to allow Coach Dunton to coach the 06-07 season even after being asked to make a coaching change when he first arrived. He didn't think it was fair to let someone go without having a full season to evaluate him. Dr. Falwell allowed him, against his original wishes, to keep Coach Dunton for the next year to give him a plan of improvement and to fully evaluate him....

True to my pledge, I do not want to go after JB on FF anymore. I also think it is in the best interests of this Board, of RD, & of the LU basketball program, to all move on, and my prayer is that RD gets an opportunity to coach at some other college very soon, and we leave all of this bickering behind.

However, I don't like to see the statements (about JB acting in opposition to the Doc's wishes
regarding Randy's job) going unchallenged.

I'll be up front and say I simply don't believe that scenario! Doc himself hired Randy, and said in print that he was a close friend of Randy.

JB had been here a short time, and Randy had been here 14 years. It was JB's call (at least administratively) that took away Randy's position & dream, and then to cast JB as Randy's defender is particularly offensive. Since analogies are not proofs, I will abstain from using any, but attempting to frame one's "enemy" (so to speak) as his strongest ally, particularly when we are supposed to be smoking the peace pipe, just doesn't seem right.

SuperJon, I would like to know your source on this. Doctor Falwell never made such a public statement, so it must therefore have been a private statement. Did he tell you personally of his wish to terminate Randy before the 06-07 season, or did someone else tell you? If so, who was that someone else?

As you know, the things I have said are usually able to be documented, and usually by the subject's own words in print. I'm not saying that it has to be a printed documentation, but there should be
something to back up what is, at face, an outlandish and most offensive assertion.

What I'm about to say is related, but different. If "Checkers"/vthokies" is such a nut, and so out-of-bounds" and is the type who could be or was banished and might be again, could we attempt to not to respond in kind? If we're going to be "above that" on this Board, then let's do so. Again, he insulted JB, so then we come back and say, "Oh no! JB was actually RD's deliverer for one year."

I don't believe it, am willing to discuss it and argue it, but would rather either have the claim substantiated or retracted.

Thank you

[SuperJon]

If Dr. Falwell and Coach Dunton were so close, how many times did they meet up with each other over the last two years that Coach Dunton was coach? Their meetings went from once a month to not happening at all over those last two years.

Jeff Barber did make the decision to not give Coach Dunton a new contract. However, it was also his decision to let him finish out his new contract. I think both of those decisions were very fair decision. Coach Dunton will never tell that side of the story. Anytime you tell a sob story to someone, you tell it in the way that makes you look the best. Everyone does that.

[grm]

I can find out how many times they met, but I do know that Dr. Falwell met with Randy in his office at the Mansion on the Friday morning following the Wednesday morning that Randy's contract was not renewed. I think the meeting lasted for close to an hour. That was Friday, March 2, 2007. I drove Randy to the meeting, and wandered around the front lawn while they were in the office, watching the squirrels & looking down on the baseball field from the area that is now the Doc's final resting place.

If the Doc was not particularly fond of Randy, I don't believe he would have met with him at that point, and certainly would not have alloted him that amount of time.

Evidently, you didn't hear this matter concerning the 2006-2007 year for yourself from the Doctor, and evidently you don't care to say where you did hear it. And that is where the whole matter rests.

I don't want the members of this board saying I "stir the pot" when this kind of unsubstantiated
information is being posted. It's the other way around, and I resent it.

[SuperJon]

You have to realize that I can't name names other than saying "people who are unbiased not named Jeff Barber or Randy Dunton who have first hand knowledge."

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm getting the facts out there that your side of this argument refuses to acknowledge. Unfortunately, the majority of the facts cannot and will not ever become public so that's why we have the "cryptic" nature of "It's about more than wins and losses."

[grm]

You have to realize that I can't name names other than saying.........
I'm getting the facts out there that your side of this argument refuses to acknowledge...."

It is absolutely ridiculous & completely irresponsible for you to make such extreme statements & then refuse to back them up.

I continue to resent what you have done, and consider it to be an outrage, especially in light of my attempts at appeasement to you & reconciliation with you.

What has been done is an injustice on several fronts. I'll leave it at that. It has become pointless to say more within the context of this forum.

I wish the Flames well in the coming season, and I believe Coach Layer will serve admirably.

[El Scorcho]

haha.

I love that I could (having never read it before today) open this post and know that there was going to be bickering and a lot of it would be centered around that good ol' former coach.



I'll keep my opinion on the men's basketball program to myself, but the men's basketball forum is pathetic.

[vthokies20]

You have to realize that I can't name names other than saying.........
I'm getting the facts out there that your side of this argument refuses to acknowledge...."

It is absolutely ridiculous & completely irresponsible for you to make such extreme statements & then refuse to back them up.

I continue to resent what you have done, and consider it to be an outrage, especially in light of my attempts at appeasement to you & reconciliation with you.

What has been done is an injustice on several fronts. I'll leave it at that. It has become pointless to say more within the context of this forum.

I wish the Flames well in the coming season, and I believe Coach Layer will serve admirably.

Suprjon, Oldflame and others think they have the power to define RD in order to support the actions of JB. If they could have done it with numbers it would have been plastered everywhere with JB the editor in charge. But all numbers have fallen off. We are a one bid league and our best chance is to be prepared for a great conference season (regular season records mean very little). Let's look at the numbers:

Liberty University in Big South Conference:

Jeff Meyer-Head Coach
'92- 2nd place
'93- 4th place
'94- 4th place
'95- 5th place
'96- 2nd place
'97- 1st place
Randy Dunton- Interim
'98- 4th place (5 dimissals, Meyer quit, using FB players)
Mel Hankinson-Head Coach
'99- 6th place out of 6 teams
'00- 7th place
'01- 6th place
'02- 8th place
Randy Dunton-Head Coach
'03- 2nd place
'04- 1st place
'05- 2nd place
'06- 8th place
'07- 3rd place
Ritchie Mckay-Head Coach ($$$ is in)
'08- 4th place
'09- 3rd place
Dale Layer-Head Coach
'10- 6th place

In 14 seasons that RD has not been the Head Coach LU has 4 teams in top 3.
In 5 seasons RD was head coach LU has 4 teams in top 3.

In 14 seasons that RD has not been the Head Coach LU has 3 teams in top 2
In 5 seasons RD was head coach LU had 3 teams in top 2

In 14 seasons one NCAA bid
In 5 seasons RD one NCAA bid (a whooping in the Vines Center)

RD only LU coach with a #1 seed that also won the BSC tournament.

What might RD have accomplished in the next 5 years??

RD had a roster of tj, bj, smith, dwight, alex, rell, baker, ohman and others for the '08 season and who in their right mind would question where we would have been. Winthrop gets our championships and Greg Marshall is getting our 7' Nigerian.

Some of us have seen all these teams, have a real context of the program, don't swallow gel in the hair, slick talk and the now big black cloud theory. Sure RD was abrasive at times so is Knight, Calhoun, Calapari, Williams, Marshall and numerous others who compete, fight and battle to win the prize. JB wanted a press conference, he had to frame the future of LU athletics, his ego would not allow him to build on what was in place, he had to put his stamp on it. Now his ponds who probably never sat in one team meeting or film session with RD want to be the authority to define him in order to justify the execution . RD would have been richly rewarded in most every institution for his performance. Superjon now cheers 6th what will he do if DL can match RD's numbers. Hopefully with Emilee finishing up here high school days RD will find a quality place to serve an institution that will appreciate his performance.

I wish Dale Layer the best in the future as history shows this is not as easy as some think. As for JB life has a way of balancing the scales.

[Bigsouthking]

Now post where each team finished in the conference tournament.

[olldflame]

Here's my favorite part of checker's rant: "And Greg Marshall is getting our 7 foot Nigerian."


Ehimem Orupke was signed by LU in November of 2006 as a result of the efforts of our then assistant, Dominic Okun. After the coaching change, Marshall hired Okun on his staff specifically to try to follow up and bring Orupke to Wichita State. 3 years later, he finally saw the basketball court on US soil, not at Wichita State, but at 3 Rivers Community College. He is averaging 5.6 points and 5.9 rebounds this year along with an impressive 3.6 blocks. He signed to play at Wichita State last November, and should be eligible to play there this fall, 4 years after he originally signed, that is of course if the stress fracture which caused him to miss several games this year doesn't turn out to be a Tyler Baker situation. I find it hilarious (and more than a little condescending) that he is referred to as "our Nigerian".

It's just typical though of the spin and selective use of facts that he uses to portray his friend Randy as being some kind of coaching messiah. Everything bad that has happened in the last 3 years would have been all better had RD been there. Orukpe would have magically been approved in a flash by the NCAA clearinghouse to come to play for Randy as opposed to Greg. BJ would have suddenly fit in at LU and stayed. Brew would no longer need money for his family, TeeJay Banister would be granted a 6th and 7th year of eligibility by the NCAA and Armon Jones and Soup Campbell would miraculously turn into D1 basketball players.

I am not an RD hater, I am a Liberty basketball fan. Have been since 1974, when Dan Manley was our coach and Eddie Gomes was our point guard. I was ambivilant when RD was hired in 2002. I was esctatic when he coached us to a championship in 04, and I was increasingly disappointed over the next 3 years by the lack of stability and continuity I saw, and the first round losses in the tournament. I was never one who called for him to be cut loose though, and had mixed feelings about his contract not being renewed. I did however, support the fact that it was JBs call to make, and I trusted he had his reasons, some of which were clear at the time and some not so clear.

Yes the Big South is a one bid league. That bid goes to the tournament champion. Theoretically, good seedings earned in the conference regular season would be important, but when you lose to lower seeds they don't mean much. The one thing consistent in the arguments of the RD fan club are references to the regular season standings of his teams in the BSC. When you look at the overall picture you see why, because with the single exception of 03-04 his teams had losing overall records and did not advance in the tournament. BTW, checkers, I am happy to see that you have recovered from your amnesia, and now remember the 05-06 season actually happened.

[Schfourteenteen]

[(regular season records mean very little).

In terms of making the tournament, yes. In terms of a program... No.

[LUconn]

If we're gonna say that the overall record doesn't matter, why stop there? Why does the conference regular season matter? It's all about the tournament, apparently.


Randy Dunton-Head Coach
'03- 2nd place Lost in the 2nd round of tournament AT HOME
'04- 1st place Won the tournament AT HOME
'05- 2nd place Lost in the 1st round of the tournament AT HOME (to an awful CSU team)
'06- 8th place Lost in the 1st round of the tournament AWAY
'07- 3rd place Lost in the 1st round of the tournament AT HOME (just completely out coached)

That's 4-5. 4-1 his first 2 years. 0-3 the next 3. Looked to me like a bit of a trend. Now I've always been the first to admit that championship should have bought him more than 3 extra years. However, it should have been an immediate extension after a stellar 1st 2 years. By the end of his contract it was probably easier just to let it run out instead of giving him 2 more years. Recruits would have immediately seen a lame duck. And you can't give him 4 more knowing that he has to win right away or you're gonna have to boot him AND pay him. The mistake was an earlier contract extension.

[Bigsouthking]

I meant post every team from '92 or where ever vthokies20 started it at:

[BJWilliams]

1991-1992: 22-7 lost semifinals Big South Tournament
1992-1993: 16-14 lost first round Big South Tournament
1993-1994: 18-12 WON Big South Tournament lost first round NCAA Tournament
1994-1995: 12-16 Lost semifinals Big South Tournament (at home)
1995-1996: 17-12 lost finals Big South Tournament (at home)
1996-1997: 23-9 lost finals Big South Tournament (at home)
1997-1998: 11-17 lost semifinals Big South Tournament (at home)
1998-1999: 4-23 lost first round Big South Tournament
1999-2000: 14-14 lost first round Big South Tournament
2000-2001: 13-15 lost semifinals Big South Tournament
2001-2002: 5-25 lost first round Big South Tournament
2002-2003: 14-15 lost semifinals Big South Tournament
2003-2004: 18-15 WON Big South Tournament lost first round NCAA Tournment
2004-2005: 13-15 lost first round Big South Tournament
2005-2006: 7-23 lost first round Big South Tournament
2006-2007: 14-17 lost first round Big South Tournament
2007-2008: 16-16 lost semifinals Big South Tournament
2008-2009: 23-12 lost semifinals Big South Tournament lost quarterfinals CollegeInsider.com tournament
2009-2010: 15-16. lost first round Big South Tournament

[Th3rd]

1991-1992: 22-7 lost semifinals Big South Tournament
1992-1993: 16-14 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Jeff Meyer
1993-1994: 18-12 WON Big South Tournament lost first round NCAA Tournament - HC Jeff Meyer
1994-1995: 12-16 Lost semifinals Big South Tournament (at home) - HC Jeff Meyer
1995-1996: 17-12 lost finals Big South Tournament (at home) - HC Jeff Meyer
1996-1997: 23-9 lost finals Big South Tournament (at home) - HC Jeff Meyer
1997-1998: 11-17 lost semifinals Big South Tournament (at home) - Interim HC Randy Dunton
1998-1999: 4-23 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Mel Hankinson
1999-2000: 14-14 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Mel Hankinson
2000-2001: 13-15 lost semifinals Big South Tournament - HC Mel Hankinson
2001-2002: 5-25 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Mel Hankinson
2002-2003: 14-15 lost semifinals Big South Tournament - HC Randy Dunton
2003-2004: 18-15 WON Big South Tournament lost first round NCAA Tournment - HC Randy Dunton
2004-2005: 13-15 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Randy Dunton
2005-2006: 7-23 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Randy Dunton
2006-2007: 14-17 lost first round Big South Tournament - HC Randy Dunton
2007-2008: 16-16 lost semifinals Big South Tournament - HC Ritchie McKay
2008-2009: 23-12 lost semifinals Big South Tournament lost quarterfinals CollegeInsider.com tournament - HC Ritchie McKay
2009-2010: 15-16. lost first round Big South Tournament - Dale Layer

[BJWilliams]

thanks for that Th3rd...I had to throw that together before the computer lab closed...

If you factor out the statistical outliers (the four Hankinson seasons, two for RMK and one for DL) RD was involved in some capacity for 12 of those 19 seasons. To break that down...in those 12 seasons...

LU lost in the semifinals 4 times, lost in the finals twice, won two championships, and lost in the first round 4 times.

[thepostman]

the point being RD's record when it mattered wasn't that great...

I am not an RD hater..never have been and never will be...I liked the way he coached and probably am in the minority there...

but it was time to move on...and we did...of course we can all look back and see it was a mistake to trust RM after he did the same kind of crap to other schools...but when guys throw God out there as being a motivator for taking this job and talking on and on about how he finally felt at home it was hard not to believe him....your normal kind of guy doesn't throw God's name out there for the heck of it

as for the season goes, it was what we all pretty much expected...we have some good pieces in place and will be very solid next season...

[olldflame]

If success in the BSC tournament is the yard stick, then Jeff Meyer's teams were far and away the most successful. Only 1 first round loss in 6 years and made the final 3 times, winning once.