[horrez]

If I was CSU in that situation, I'd try and arrange something with College of Charleston to use their facility if it came to that (CofC would be away for the SoCon tourney anyway)...great facility and not too far from home. McAlister Fieldhouse (Citadel's gym) would be ok too, though it isn't nearly as nice of a facility as CofC's.

They could also look at using one of the local high school gyms (they don't have a ton of seats, but they do have about twice as many as the "BucDome").

[JK37]

Prepare of Kingaling42 to remind you that it would be unfair to the Bucs as a team to give up their homecourt advantage.

You know it!!

I don't see what all the debate is about though- this tourney is at Kimble until someone knocks off Coastal- CSU is the 7 seed for Pete's sake, could it happen? Sure... any team could put 3 games together, but VMI would have to be in the final for CSU to host- anyone betting on that scenario needs to come to terms with reality.. Yes- I understand the hypothetical nature of the question this being a message board & all..

All the schools with bigger arena's aren't good enough to host the tourney this year otherwise.. no matter how much money you throw into athletics, sometimes you just can't buy wins... but hey, it's a nice arena for concerts & other events such as women's basketball...

The intial introduction of this thought was not a this-year scenario, but rather more of a hypothetical what-if for the future. Heck, let's consider for a second the very real possibility that Coastal's gym hosts the championship. Isn't that the second-smallest in the conference?! That will look bad enough for the Big South on national TV.

Someone mentioned earlier that CSU has never had a national TV game, or even regional. Has Coastal?!

[WinthropEagleFan]

Yeah, Coastal had an ESPN game against WU a few years ago and they've had several regional games.

They have a camera platform at midcourt on the side across from the benches above the seats...CSU doesn't have anything like that.

[UNCA Alum]

I don't get everybody's obsession with "how we will look on TV." I thought the jam packed game at UNCA two years ago looked pretty sweet. Whereas back in '03 we played Radford in front of about 1,500 fans (maybe) at Liberty and it looked like crap.

Regardles....... HERE WE GO FLAMES HERE WE GO!!

[horrez]

I don't get everybody's obsession with "how we will look on TV." I thought the jam packed game at UNCA two years ago looked pretty sweet. Whereas back in '03 we played Radford in front of about 1,500 fans (maybe) at Liberty and it looked like crap.

Regardles....... HERE WE GO FLAMES HERE WE GO!!

You aren't really comparing apples to apples here. If you had played Liberty at Libery in '03, then I'm sure the place would have been packed. The crowd wasn't small because Liberty has a big gym, the crowd was small because Liberty wasn't playing in the game.

[uncafan]

I don't get everybody's obsession with "how we will look on TV." I thought the jam packed game at UNCA two years ago looked pretty sweet. Whereas back in '03 we played Radford in front of about 1,500 fans (maybe) at Liberty and it looked like crap.

Regardles....... HERE WE GO FLAMES HERE WE GO!!

well i think the point being made was the actual logistics of filming a TV game there. Justice center(as an example) is easier than a lot of other small venues because of the elevated seating and the built in camera platform/balcony which makes for easy camera placement. CSU really doesn't have any elevated areas (except for behind the one hoop) and in terms of TV production anywhere you'd place a camera would be visible during every single other shot of the game.

I mean, they'd have to bring a lift in to put a camera on because otherwise you'd be watching the game from a court level camera and that just doesn't work in TV.

Agreed CCU isn't nearly as bad...still not great. And I DO remember that CCU/Winthrop game in -- 2006? I believe it was? I remember watching it on TV and it seemed like a great atmosphere.


BTW, someone pointed out on our board... UNCA now becomes the only team to make it to at least the semi's each of the last 4 years. Winthrop would be 2nd with 3 appearances....

[UNCA Alum]

I don't get everybody's obsession with "how we will look on TV." I thought the jam packed game at UNCA two years ago looked pretty sweet. Whereas back in '03 we played Radford in front of about 1,500 fans (maybe) at Liberty and it looked like crap.

Regardles....... HERE WE GO FLAMES HERE WE GO!!

You aren't really comparing apples to apples here. If you had played Liberty at Libery in '03, then I'm sure the place would have been packed. The crowd wasn't small because Liberty has a big gym, the crowd was small because Liberty wasn't playing in the game.

I get what you are saying, but I'm not too certain that the Charleston Coliseum (or whatever it is called) or Asheville Civic Center would be jam packed to the rafters if we moved the tournaments there if CSU / UNCA finished first in the regular season.

I'm just of the opinion that a sold out smaller gymnasium looks pretty sweet on TV. So often the smaller conferences have their tournaments in these huge venues and they only fill up 1/8 for the championship game on ESPN. (Like we used to do when we went "neutral" sites.) Having it at the home site guarantees that we are going to get a good crowd for the championship game. I just don't think you can tell UNCA / Charleston / Coastal that they have to give up the homecourt advantage that they earned during the regular season.

I also don't really care if these other people out there are watching the game and "making fun of the Big South." Why should that matter at all?

[kingaling42]

I would also state that I would worry far more about the BSC rating #28/29 out of 32 conferences far more than what Tanner Bob on the West coast thinks about the Big South or the Justice Center, Kimbel Arena, or the Buc Dome..

Do you really think that TV world gives a flip about any of our arena's?? If they're large or tiny, who else other than Big South fans (all of whom know what each school brings to the table) really cares?

The semis & final game are on for 2 hours each & then in their minds we're a 15/16 seed set for destruction in the Big Dance..

Now when you speak about ticket availability and not the TV crew setups, then I can buy into your thoughts a little bit more- even then that's Economics 101, supply & demand.. if the conference really wanted increased revenue they'd put more resources into the Big South Network which has good moments & then really poor quality moments (or film crews that don't keep up with the action very well).. I believe that most of us would pay to watch our teams play if the consistency were improved.. I do anyway & suffer with the ups/downs..

This conversation comes up every year because somehow you guys (& some other programs with bigger arena's) think it makes you feel better that you have some large arena while continuing to field a mediocre team.. Again, I'd be more focused on earning the right to hold the conference & let other schools worry about how they'll pull it off.. but that's just me..

[WinthropEagleFan]

Yeah, I've never worried too much about how the league is perceived on TV...the only people watching are people that follow a team in the league already or the basketball junkie that watches all of the championship week action (and already knows enough to probably have a perception of the league already)...I mean, does anyone here remember what gym the Patriot League or Southland or Summit League championship game was played in last year and how it made their leagues look? I'm pretty sure I watched those and I have no clue...I don't remember.

I personally care how Winthrop is perceived at a larger level, but not so much the league as a whole. If someone sees Coastal's gym on TV and perceives that as a bad thing, I think it's a lot more of a mark on Coastal than it is on the league as a whole.

[JK37]

This conversation comes up every year because somehow you guys (& some other programs with bigger arena's) think it makes you feel better that you have some large arena while continuing to field a mediocre team.. Again, I'd be more focused on earning the right to hold the conference & let other schools worry about how they'll pull it off.. but that's just me..

I started this. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think you have my motivations nailed with this here.

Not to mention, your argument simply sounds like what every school without a larger facility says about those who do have one. Believe me, I'm in favor of a smaller facility that is full. But there is a line of too small. Charleston Southern is too small. Coastal and Asheville are too small to be hosting the conference's premiere championship event on national television. From an event management perspective, these things matter, and it does reflect poorly upon the conference.

[Th3rd]

This conversation comes up every year because somehow you guys (& some other programs with bigger arena's) think it makes you feel better that you have some large arena while continuing to field a mediocre team.. Again, I'd be more focused on earning the right to hold the conference & let other schools worry about how they'll pull it off.. but that's just me..

I started this. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think you have my motivations nailed with this here.

Not to mention, your argument simply sounds like what every school without a larger facility says about those who do have one. Believe me, I'm in favor of a smaller facility that is full. But there is a line of too small. Charleston Southern is too small. Coastal and Asheville are too small to be hosting the conference's premiere championship event on national television. From an event management perspective, these things matter, and it does reflect poorly upon the conference.

there is a reason why at this moment we have 0 NBA players from the Big South... yes there are big schools with mediocre teams, but when you see a place that looks smaller than the high school you played in on national television you dont really want to go to that conference now do you?

[jcmanson]

there is a reason why at this moment we have 0 NBA players from the Big South... yes there are big schools with mediocre teams, but when you see a place that looks smaller than the high school you played in on national television you dont really want to go to that conference now do you?

Actually we have 1: http://www.vmikeydets.com/ViewArticle.d ... =204900023

[Th3rd]

my bad... my point still stands though

[kingaling42]

You just backed up the reasons for seeing a small gym on ESPN with not having but 1 player in the NBA?? Really.. the NBA??? Big South to the NBA isn't exactly the ideal career path last I checked- kids who seriously think of the NBA don't watch the Big South games.. You're really reaching for a barometer of success by mentioning the NBA..

That's not to say that UNCA & the other smaller schools don't get recruits- compare UNCA with everyone in the league barring Winthrops golden years & we've had plenty of success for a school with a HS gym/ski lodge- it's funny because while the JC is antiquated & tiny, I've never thought that it has hindered us much in terms of success.. granted we've lost plenty of kids to other schools with nicer facilities, but UNCA basketball has done well nonetheless.. If anything, you might be concerned when our facilities & Coastal's catch up to other's in the Big South...

[UNCA Alum]

there is a reason why at this moment we have 0 NBA players from the Big South... yes there are big schools with mediocre teams, but when you see a place that looks smaller than the high school you played in on national television you dont really want to go to that conference now do you?

Dude..... the opposing arenas/gyms in the league might account for 0.075% of a recruit's decision. And then it could very easily vary for each recruit. I would much rather play in front of a 1,000 at Coastal than in front of 1K at Western Carolina or at Appalachian State. Huge, empty arenas are the worst possible atmosphere for a basketball game.

I don't think many high school basketball players would have seen the environment in 2008 for the Winthrop / UNCA game and thought to themselves, "Nah... I really don't want to play there." Put UNCA vs. Radford in front of a 1,000 fans at the Vines Center though and you might start to turn off some recruits.

[Th3rd]

there is a reason why at this moment we have 0 NBA players from the Big South... yes there are big schools with mediocre teams, but when you see a place that looks smaller than the high school you played in on national television you dont really want to go to that conference now do you?

Dude..... the opposing arenas/gyms in the league might account for 0.075% of a recruit's decision. And then it could very easily vary for each recruit. I would much rather play in front of a 1,000 at Coastal than in front of 1K at Western Carolina or at Appalachian State. Huge, empty arenas are the worst possible atmosphere for a basketball game.

I don't think many high school basketball players would have seen the environment in 2008 for the Winthrop / UNCA game and thought to themselves, "Nah... I really don't want to play there." Put UNCA vs. Radford in front of a 1,000 fans at the Vines Center though and you might start to turn off some recruits.

but you dont think it would helped recruits last year when the Vines was packed and they got a chance to look at it and say "Wow, I could play in front of that many people game in and game out"

I mean i know its not the biggest factor ever, but on the off chance that a guy has to pick between UNCA and a place like East Carolina or a Eastern Kentucky (basically an OVC or even a Big Sky school)
you dont think the better facility and more media awareness makes him rethink his decision??

or even pull a Seth Curry and use a UNCA or any other smaller D1 school as a springboard to a Duke or a UNC

[UNCA Alum]

Well the facilities of the school that you attend will certainly play a role in your decision, though it's impact is largely overstated. I would say guys care a lot more about a winning tradition, early playing time, style of play, campus environment, location, relationship with the coach, relationship with players already on campus, and even education (for some) before they start thinking about facilities.

If Coastal Carolina wins on Saturday in front of 1,000 people in Kimbel Arena, I'm sure plenty of recruits will say... "I wouldn't mind going down to the beach, playing in front of a rowdy crowd, and going to the NCAA Tournament while occasionally attending class."

I don't think anybody is going to watch the Coastal / Winthrop game on Saturday and say, "Man.... I ain't going to Gardner-Webb!!!"

[horrez]

I don't get everybody's obsession with "how we will look on TV." I thought the jam packed game at UNCA two years ago looked pretty sweet. Whereas back in '03 we played Radford in front of about 1,500 fans (maybe) at Liberty and it looked like crap.

Regardles....... HERE WE GO FLAMES HERE WE GO!!

You aren't really comparing apples to apples here. If you had played Liberty at Libery in '03, then I'm sure the place would have been packed. The crowd wasn't small because Liberty has a big gym, the crowd was small because Liberty wasn't playing in the game.

I get what you are saying, but I'm not too certain that the Charleston Coliseum (or whatever it is called) or Asheville Civic Center would be jam packed to the rafters if we moved the tournaments there if CSU / UNCA finished first in the regular season.

I'm just of the opinion that a sold out smaller gymnasium looks pretty sweet on TV. So often the smaller conferences have their tournaments in these huge venues and they only fill up 1/8 for the championship game on ESPN. (Like we used to do when we went "neutral" sites.) Having it at the home site guarantees that we are going to get a good crowd for the championship game. I just don't think you can tell UNCA / Charleston / Coastal that they have to give up the homecourt advantage that they earned during the regular season.

I also don't really care if these other people out there are watching the game and "making fun of the Big South." Why should that matter at all?

I see what your saying. For the record, I wasn't arguing that schools with small gyms shouldn't be allowed to host... I was just pointing out that the example you gave wasn't really an apples to apples comparison.

I might be one of the few non-UNCA fans that likes the Justice Center. I'm sure part of that is that the only Winthrop games I've seen there were wins for WU... and I was able to get a ticket to the '08 championship game. When I do complain about a school with a small court hosting, it is purely for the selfish reason that it is hard (almost impossible?) for me as an opposing fan to get a ticket to watch a game in those places. I understand why... but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

As far as what other people think of the Big South, I could care less. I doubt many people think about the Big South at all. I will say, however, I think the talk about CSU ever getting to host the semis & finals is different in that I'm not sure where the TV cameras would go. I think that could be a legit concern for the Big South/ESPN if that ever happened. But that isn't an issue at any of the other schools.

[UNCA Alum]

well it was sort of relevant.

i think we "look" a lot better now that ESPN is showing games that are at least sold out, even if the gyms are smaller. Whereas we used to be playing in front of sparse crowds on neutral courts, often times where the two teams competing were hours away from their home.

plus this gives some meaning to the regular season. everybody wins. except the lame winthrop fans that can't get a ticket!!

[olldflame]

Man, some people are way too focused on every seat being filled. There are worse things than a few empty seats................ like for instance hundreds, or even thousands of fans from both schools wanting to attend a final game and see their team earn it's way to the dance, but can't get in because the game is being played in a band box.

[ATrain]

I remember the '04 Championship game between LU and HPU...other than an ever-growing empty spot in the HPU section, if I were a recruit and I saw the atmosphere and 8,515 or so fans going wild I would have definitely been sold on LU. While I'm sure UNCA and Kimbel have awesome atmospheres when packed, if I were a recruit and I saw those gyms empty I'd be thinking "So where do they play?" upon first sight.

[kingaling42]

Olldflame… There are thousands (about 5,400 on average) of seats unfilled for all but 1 Liberty home game this year.. you don't think that current players & prospective players are bothered by this?? But never mind that, let's look at your thoughts.. you really think that thousands of LU fans are going to travel for a semifinals game? The numbers below paint a totally different picture..

Vines holds over 8,000.. the highest attended game this year drew full capacity (Clemson).. Otherwise the average attendance was at 2,674- LU would have averaged even fewer (2,254) if you threw that Clemson game out and its not like the ACC teams are coming to LU year in/year out.. So I think it makes a difference in all your televised games already on MASN or wherever else LU games are shown...

Just marvel at the attendance numbers for the past few years, including hosted tourney games at the Vines...
09-10: Avg 2,674 - High Game: Clemson 8,143 (#6 seed)
08-09: Avg 3,304 - High Game: Radford 7,352- (2,310 showed for hosted 1st round game vs G-W with LU as #3 seed)
07-08: Avg 2,505 - High Game: UNCA 6,566- (2,077 showed for hosted 1st round game vs VMI with LU as #4 seed)
06-07: Avg 1,984 - High Game: VMI 4,585 - (3,750 showed for hosted 1st round game vs VMI with LU as #3 seed)
05-06: Avg 1,783 - High Game: Lynchburg College 3,339 - (#8 seed)
04-05: Avg ?? - High Game: ?? - (2,231 showed for hosted 1st round game vs CSU with LU as #2 seed)
03-04: Avg ?? - High Game: ?? - As the #1 seed you get some numbers, 1st round 4,331 vs CSU, Semis 6,411 vs CCU, Final 8,515 vs HP- this is the only year that LU was the #1 seed in the history of the conference tourney..

So I guess I'm confused that if you can barely get over 2,200+ fans in the Vines at home in tourney play, what makes you think that thousands of LU fans would travel in the tourney semis regardless of where the game is played outside of Virginia? Finals… perhaps, but LU hasn't sniffed the finals outside of the Vines the past 16 years as 1994 was the only time LU made (& won) the final away from the Vines..

The last year UNCA hosted in 07-08, we didn’t have room for all our fans ALL season long due to the Kenny George phenomenon, it was LU’s highest attended home game that year as well for example.. so the tourney was just that much more difficult for everyone!

So where’s the attendance argument in relation to ticket availability exactly? I understand that tickets are even more limited- I do.. Then again, it’s not like LU is posting large numbers even at home… Are we to believe that magical LU fans travel to away games in far away places more so than the friendly confines of home?? Nice try…

[olldflame]

You totally ignored my point and typed whatever you wanted to kingaling. It had nothing to do with LU. You could have any 2 teams in the conference playing in the final, and if it's in a gym that holds 1,000 people, there are going to be a lot of fans from both teams who want to go and won't be able to get tickets. IMHO that is worse than having some empty seats in a larger venue where everyone who wants to be there can get in. I'm certainly glad the tournament was played in the North Charleston Coloseum in 94, and not in the Bucdome or about 2000 people would have missed out on a great memory. I couldn't care less if some empty seats got shown on ESPN.

[uncafan]

You totally ignored my point and typed whatever you wanted to kingaling. It had nothing to do with LU. You could have any 2 teams in the conference playing in the final, and if it's in a gym that holds 1,000 people, there are going to be a lot of fans from both teams who want to go and won't be able to get tickets. IMHO that is worse than having some empty seats in a larger venue where everyone who wants to be there can get in. I'm certainly glad the tournament was played in the North Charleston Coloseum in 94, and not in the Bucdome or about 2000 people would have missed out on a great memory. I couldn't care less if some empty seats got shown on ESPN.

I see both of your points here... but I gotta agree with king.

Oldflame the point isn't just that empty seats are seen on ESPN... The point is would you rather be a venue with a great atmosphere that's jam-packed/fun/close to the action etc. and risk that not all your fans can come? Or would you rather have a huge arena that is never filled and have a championship game in an atmosphere that just isn't fun or exciting? As a former collegiate athlete i'd rather be in a venue that has excitement -- instead of a huge venue that is half empty (but has more fans). I'd also rather watch an event in an atmosphere like that. But that's just my perspective. Sitting in the upper deck to watch a game, or sitting 50 rows back and being surrounded by empty seats just isn't all that fun to me (even if my team is winning).

I don't see how King is ignoring your point. He's merely pointing out -- i think -- that Liberty really doesn't have that many more regular-season attendees than schools with much smaller gyms -- so how can the conference (or an opposing school) assume that the more 'fair weather' contingent of BSC basketball is going to travel/show up for a championship game? The truth is you can't. Nevermind the whole home court aspect which has definitely been discussed here a few times But if LU (or another school) was pulling 4 or 5k a night during the regular season then I think its fair to make the argument that the conference needs to set requirements in order to keep the fans happy. But we're not at that point yet (IMHO).

The other thing is -- if your an LU (or a WU fan the last two years) fan and your worried about getting a seat in a small venue -- I would politely suggest that maybe if your well funded program(s) were a little better you could actually host some of these games instead of having to play in Justice or other venues.

[kingaling42]

You totally ignored my point and typed whatever you wanted to kingaling. It had nothing to do with LU. You could have any 2 teams in the conference playing in the final, and if it's in a gym that holds 1,000 people, there are going to be a lot of fans from both teams who want to go and won't be able to get tickets. IMHO that is worse than having some empty seats in a larger venue where everyone who wants to be there can get in. I'm certainly glad the tournament was played in the North Charleston Coloseum in 94, and not in the Bucdome or about 2000 people would have missed out on a great memory. I couldn't care less if some empty seats got shown on ESPN.

How did I ignore your point??

Liberty is the largest school in the Big South & I related my post specifically to LU for your understanding quite frankly- had I used another schools attendance figures most here would not pay attention to my point.. Liberty & it's 11,000-12,000 "residential" student enrollment constitutes the largest potential fan base of all of the BSC schools (I would argue that WU fans travel better in the tourney based on my experience the past 15 years).. pointing out that LU's regular attendance numbers & historical attendance of hosted tourney games exactly proves that most likely LU is not demanding all that many more tickets than what is available even in the smaller venues- more than likely this is also true of the other teams at venues other than their home court.. is the demand more than what UNCA, CCU, & CSU can allocate currently- Yes it is- but it's not like thousands of LU fans are going to be stuck without a ticket- that's just not the truth..

Do the BSC schools (especially CSU at this point) need larger arena's- absolutely!! Once CCU & UNCA's current projects are complete the conference will definitely be in a better place..

I would also state that 8k seats that are rarely filled for conference play at LU & 6k seats at Winthrop rarely filled for games is not a model reflection of the conference either... It's like the 6 bedroom house- it's great when you have company over once a year but the rest of the time, it's just empty space & goes to waste in terms of athletics...

Also in terms of recruiting- March/April is not exactly where the best recruits are left standing for Big South schools (excpet hold outs for bigger schools perhaps)- so I don't think recruits are hinging their choice on watching any BSC school on ESPN/ESPNU in the tourney- they are, however, hinging it on their official visits to campus where they typically attend a home game or 2- so they are seeing those empty seats far more than some image on TV..