[Bring it on]

The Dunton supporters on here who want to have it both ways are rediculous. This guy is the biggest self-promoter in the business. Yet the performance fails to match the talk. When he won the Big South in his second year, there is no question it was a great accomplishment. However, this should have opened doors to higher level recruits who are ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED and a GOOD MATCH FOR LIBERTY. They are out there. But instead we are right back where Mel had us 4 years ago - near the bottom of Division 1.

I don't care what anybody says... THAT is a problem... a major red flag that deserves to be discussed.

If this guy is such a great recruiter (as some of his supporters like to point out) then the program should be in far better shape 2 years removed from a Big South title. Instead, the coaching staff couldn't wait to get out, and many of the players felt the same. Maybe if RD had gone in and fought for raises for his assistants instead of just himself; and maybe if he had publically spread the credit for the teams success to his staff instead of telling them he won the Big South "in spite of" them... he would have been able to keep them around.

Yes, Dunton deserves another year to get it turned around. He is a good X and O coach. But he also needs to hear and read this stuff. He needs to learn a little humility, feel the pressure of expectations, address his apparent inability to generate loyalty from his staff & players, and hopefully become a better coach as a result. If not, Falwell should buy him some new snow skis and send him packing back to Alaska.

[Stevev]

You brought up some good points Nick. I am surprised by the number of people on this board who are pro-Dunton. Probably because he posts here occasionally. It is his fourth season and even with the unexpected loss of key personell, even in this so called "rebuilding year" we should not be at the bottom of one of the worst conferences in the country with only a single div 1 win. I can see a little dropoff as a result but this is getting totally ridiculous and an embarrasment to the university. As I stated in the past this team is probably just as bad as what Hankinson had in his first and last years. And you are right about the reason for players leaving. There has to be a legitimate reason why this is happening. This whole thing is getting very frustrating to say the least.

[jimflamesfan]

This is a rebuilding year b/c the first 2 years that Dunton were here, he jumpstarted the program with juco/transfers... transfers don't have 4 years to offer,

So we get hit with a re-building year in his 3rd year...do the math. So we wait until the end of next year before we evaulate it...unless his contract ends this year...but I believe you still have to give him next year based on the fact that this year might be some kind of fluke.

[Sly Fox]

First off, if you really do want to bring it on then you might gain some cred by registering.

There is no question this year has been a major diappointment. But you are reaching by dragging in former assistants. Both left for head coaching gigs and frankly would've had little impact on what has gone down on the floor.

There is no question that the staff has to be accountable for the players brought in. Honestly I think its tough to judge some of them due to injuries. But only a select few programs have a near 100% success ratio. Its tough to blame a staff for a player like Dees leaving. They certainly wish that everything would've worked out to keep him on campus. But there's nothing they can do about that now. Obviously DD's presence on the offensive end of the floor was greatly miss. But that's old news and we have to run with the guys who still have our school's name on the front of their jerseys.

[jimflamesfan]

Also, Hankinson may have been able to recruit...but it didn't seem like we could win...did his players ever learn that match-up zone defenisve system that he talked about...I think in his 3rd year he said they had about 70 percent of the system learned.

I think Dunton gets the X and Os...hopefully next year we'll have some more talent come in. REALLY need a center. REALLY need a center. Maybe 2 - and a lot of the other problems go away, I think.

[Hold My Own]

"Miller leaving was out of our control, he couldnt spell his name"

"we dont have but 2 DI ball players on the entire team"

If both of these statements are true then who is ultimately responsible? Who signed off on recruiting a player who can't spell his name and who gave the ok to offer scholarships to players that do not belong on a D1 basketball program?

Simple...when he has a 3.0 GPA coming in I'm going to think he'll do very well considering LU's curriculum is not the toughest I've ever come across

and when you lose players to different circumstances it forces you to take players that were not even near the top of your recruiting list

[Hold My Own]

The Dunton supporters on here who want to have it both ways are rediculous. This guy is the biggest self-promoter in the business. Yet the performance fails to match the talk. When he won the Big South in his second year, there is no question it was a great accomplishment. However, this should have opened doors to higher level recruits who are ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED and a GOOD MATCH FOR LIBERTY. They are out there. But instead we are right back where Mel had us 4 years ago - near the bottom of Division 1.

I don't care what anybody says... THAT is a problem... a major red flag that deserves to be discussed.

If this guy is such a great recruiter (as some of his supporters like to point out) then the program should be in far better shape 2 years removed from a Big South title. Instead, the coaching staff couldn't wait to get out, and many of the players felt the same. Maybe if RD had gone in and fought for raises for his assistants instead of just himself; and maybe if he had publically spread the credit for the teams success to his staff instead of telling them he won the Big South "in spite of" them... he would have been able to keep them around.

Yes, Dunton deserves another year to get it turned around. He is a good X and O coach. But he also needs to hear and read this stuff. He needs to learn a little humility, feel the pressure of expectations, address his apparent inability to generate loyalty from his staff & players, and hopefully become a better coach as a result. If not, Falwell should buy him some new snow skis and send him packing back to Alaska.

One of the Coach's you mentioned was the recruiting coordinator, so let's not be so quick to toss ALL of the blame one way or the other for some bad recruiting mishaps, but we did lose great coach's and people for that matter, but I would ask yall to talk to the players to see if they think we took a step back with the new additions or a step forward

[Hold My Own]

Also, Hankinson may have been able to recruit...but it didn't seem like we could win...did his players ever learn that match-up zone defenisve system that he talked about...I think in his 3rd year he said they had about 70 percent of the system learned.

I think Dunton gets the X and Os...hopefully next year we'll have some more talent come in. REALLY need a center. REALLY need a center. Maybe 2 - and a lot of the other problems go away, I think.

Jim I know what you were saying about Hankinson being able to recruit...although I do remember when he lost 75% of his recruits....anyone else remember when we had like the top 50 recruiting class and I dont believe we saw one of those players come....I guess it just goes to show you how easy it is to lose players in todays college game with last minute offers

And yes, Dunton is very cocky and a self promoter (theres very few DI BBall Coach's that dont have a big ego, it's prob. what keeps them motivated when things get bad) anyways, I'm not ready to hand that crown to D, he comes in 2nd...Hankinson wins this title outright...I've never heard so much stuff in my life...I took out a loan to buy a car from him and not to mention shirtless b/c he already got that from me

As for the Pro Dunton people...you tend to gather some when the 4 years before you came we were worse than our football team and then his first year on the job we get 2nd then 1st then 2nd again...and yes I will continue to repeat myself until people finally get it through their heads that he's been successful up until this point

The problem with this board is I know for a fact there are members and guest on here with a hidden agenda or grudge, being former coach's, staff and players that didnt leave LU on the best of terms (99% Guests, hence the reason for not registering)

[SamFan]

It sounds to me that there are a lot of people drinking the kool-aid as well. I don't know about the grudge theory, but there are a lot of people who were around back in the 90's and he didn't exactly leave Lynchburg on the best of terms the first time. That may explain why some people aren't as willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

I would be curious to know what his approval rating is among the Liberty community, specifically the Athletic Department members.

[guest forever]

just noticed the number of views on this topic...over 330... WOW! obviously a lot of interest in the subject.

[LUconn]

I just cannot understand where this elitist mentality comes from. Some of you guys act like it's our schools birthright to be the best in this conference year in and year out just because we were good for a couple of years in the 90s. You'd think we had been to the tournament 4 or 5 times. Yes, we play in a terrible conference, but in case you hadn't noticed, it's full of terrible teams for a reason. Do you think that we're the only school trying to be better? "well it's the worst D1 conference, we should be able to dominate easily" NO. That's not how it works. CSU plays in the very same conference. They can't do it. UNCA probably has the biggest "name" in our conference simply because it's a UNC school. They can't do it. Only 1 team has been able to do it, and that's Winthrop. And to that extent, Marshall is a very special coach. He should not be in this league but he's got the character and determination to stay at WU and win there. I just thank God once and a while that the people in charge of personell aren't as short sited as some of you folks. If we had your way, we'd fire a coach every year they had a bad season. We'd have a new coach every 1-2 years.


If Carey Green had a bad year next year would you be in favor of firing him? (I know I've been saying that you can't compare the 2 programs but in terms of how to deal with a coach, it is similar.)

[TallyW]

LUConn...
I don't have a dog in this fight but your argument came off pretty weak to me.

First off, the Liberty fan expects more because of our distincitives. It is pretty sad to think we can't recruit a handfull of CHRISTIAN atheletes each year. We are extremely unique in the experience we offer the Christian athelete. The coaching staff need to be able to create a culture with the team that says "If I'm a D1 caliber player and I love Jesus... I want Liberty on my short list." Because of this distinctive, frankly I for one don't care about the other teams in our conference. They all are trying to recruit based on playing time, coaches, conferene affilitation, etc. They are for the most part absent in recruiting based on faith. Especially for the basketball team... they only need to recruit a good 3-5 kids a year. We should be getting better atheletes... ones who will STAY. Instead we get projects who really don't want to be here. They leave and we're all surprised. Every once in a while you get a solid student such as LB or Caldwell or Larry Jackson...

Secondly...
Comparing RD to Green is absurd. Dutton's conference win was during a year that we were still waiting on some newbies to join the conference (I believe i'm correct on that--- i'm open to correction). Green has come in and taken a program to new heights and recruited amazing atheletes as well as amazing people who have stayed and represented the school well. Green is a proven winner...year in and year out. Some guys fighting for Dunton seem to believe that a few years as a #2 is the same as NCAA Tourney year after year?

Green was an assistant at Clemson before arriving to the Vines Center. Dunton was (at a Christian High School, then Liberty, at Marshalltown Community College and as an assistant at Binghampton University). Green was around an ACC program first hand. It just seems like one squad is working off of theory and the other off of experience.

Honestly I know it looks like I'm dogpiling... That's not my goal... i just don't know that these arguments about why Dunton is the best thing for the program are good ones. I just wonder out loud why we can't recruit better, keep the players, put a quality team on the floor, etc. Why so much turnover by the people who know him best on campus? Lots of talk about how this is a long process... great... then hire a PR firm to tell the public all of the progress being made. Otherwise I'm certain LU is going to go and get another assistant from an ACC school to come in and run the mens basktball program. We have an ACC women's coah, SEC AD and now an ACC Football coach... it's not going to take very many bad seasons before Dunton feels the pressure of having a resume that highlights Christian High Schools, Community colleges and Liberty University for 13 years. At some point someone in the room will speak up and say 'it's time'.

I want the best for RD... seriously. I want to be completely wrong. I bought Sky Angel last year just to watch Mens Basketball at LU. I seriously want RD to have a fantastic turn around. I personally haven't determined he needs to go... I'm just bringing some thoughts as to why the arguments aren't from spoiled fans who think there is some sort of birthright. It's not that simplistic of an argument....

[PAmedic]

I don't necessarily agree w/ TALLY but that was pretty well said.

I've determined to follow as many of the remaining games as I can, look for the positives and improvements, and then argue like heck at the end of the season over what should be done.

Nothing (as far as the coaching staff) will change this year anyway- we're just gonna get heartburn agonizing over it for another 2 months.

GO FLAMES HOOPS!

[Stevev]

I agree totally with Tally concerning our recruiting advantage over other BSC schools. Since LU is distinctively Christian we should be getting and keeping the best of what Christian athletes have to offer. Also no one in the conference right now has a home court like the Vines Center. Not even close in terms of capacity or quality. We should in no way be content to be middle of the road in this conference, as low as the ratings are right now.

Lets face it we won the conference on a down year from Winthrop which had injury issues that year. It seems that Coach Dunton is getting preferencial treatment as a result considering how bad this team realy is. I think that comparisons of the mens team to the womens team are legitimate right now in regards to coaching credentials. I also think Duntons past doesn't warrant a head coaching job in div 1. It is a little shacky to say the least.

[Hold My Own]

and by the way...those 90's that some of you are still living in when we had a "dynasty" in your minds brought us one title....there's a lot

1st your argument doesn't hold any weight about the BS waiting for teams b/c those teams havent played a role in fighting for the title it was a 3 team race

2nd, you said when we finish #2 year after year is not like we're going to the tourny every year

WHO THE HECK DO YOU THINK WE ARE....DUKE??? We're thrilled for a 2nd place finish b/c that means if one or two games would have gone differently then we'd be there....I would like to see someone post the first 3 years of each new coach at liberty starting with meyer and how have they done

why am I even wasting my time with some of these people, after hearing that #2 statement it reminds of of some people (prob. on this board I'm talking to) who wanted Coach Green out b/c he hasnt gotten a 1st round win....yeah, that was brilliant

Come on guys respond to my 3 posts above, but as most of you know they are facts and cannot be disputed....I didnt put all that work in for nothing!

[Agent2Be]

TallyW - I couldnt have said it better myself. The biggest issue I have with the men's b-ball program is building a program. It seems like every year we start over. Compare that to some of high DI b-ball teams out there and they dont rebuld they reload. It was my expectation that you couldnt have that "reload" attitude at LU since we were a low mid-major. Winthrop and Gonzaga are two programs out there that reload every year - and they are positioned the same as LU as far as conference strength and size - so it can be done.

The argument you raised about recruiting is the battle cry I have been championing since I found this board last year. We have alumni spread all over the world who are coaches, pastors and parents of kids out there who would be a perfect match for LU. I think LU needs to reach out more to alumni (which it seems they have been doing) to make sure they have happy soldiers out there championing the cause for LU in all avenues for the university including sports. I like what Sly has done on the board as far as mentioning potential recruits. This is a start and can be a good avenue that someone affiliated with Liberty can at least peruse.

Look at what Coach Rocco is doing in football. He is cashing in on recruits he liked for UVA that he may not have gotten, trasfers that he recruited that may be unhappy, and local kids through his family of coaches. Obviously, Coach D does not have those kind of ties, and when he was posting here, he made it sound as if recruiting that special LU athlete was "needle in the haystackish". What kind of experience do his assistants have as far as recruiting pipelines? Assistant coaches are the life blood of recruiting. Turnover in the assistant realm means a new assistant with a new pipeline and essentially the purging of a pipeline that once fed the program. With the amount of turnover experienced, these assistant coaches were never able to bring in the kids in the pipeline and being replaced with coaches with a new pipeline starves the program of bona fide players being recruited and leaves the current players unhappy because "their guy" left.

We need program stability. Lets see what happens in the off-season. Bad things happen in all programs, and our program was hit with extremely bad luck losing some key players and assistants this past off-season. I disagree that you need a name conference type of coach to build a program. Dunton has been successful early and I think will build the kind of program LU can be proud of. Now, if he has an off-season like he did last year, then I think some eyebrows should be raised, but until that happens, I chalk it up to bad luck and growing pains of building something great. Give Dunton his time, and let him build a program we can all be proud of.

[LUconn]

Why?


Why would we get the best Christian atheletes? You see our culture as an advantage to get Christian athletes. I see it as a disadvantage to get any recruits including Christians.

[PAmedic]

this is one of the oldest arguments we've had on here (another carry-over from the other board)

I don't think it will EVER be resolved. Personally, I'd like to think that LU would be a GREAT draw for talented Christian kids, the issue is- my FEELING is that there are few and far between that would turn down Texas, USC, Penn State, Michigan, etc for a scholly from LU.

I have NO statistical data to bear that out, but I know the decision I would have made at age 18. (not to mention the chances for national exposure)

[TallyW]

You really wonder how we could potentially tie in a person's core foundation (faith) with the University where they'll spend the first formative years of their adult life?

Maybe because in our country we should be able to find 3-5 people who have decided to use their God-given talent to advance the world's God-given message. Maybe because they would rather be a part of something bigger than themselves and be molded by men and women who believe the very things they aspire to know and understand. Maybe they'd prefer to live in a safe environment where God is glorified and the tide of peer-pressure actually flows toward Christ and not away from Him. I dunno... those may be a few reasons.

[PAmedic]

you may be right. I'm always surprised when those kids are found. I don't know why- maybe I'm a cynic!

[TallyW]

Medic... I must have posted right after you... I didn't get to read yours first... wasn't getting on you again

[LUconn]

You really wonder how we could potentially tie in a person's core foundation (faith) with the University where they'll spend the first formative years of their adult life?

Maybe because in our country we should be able to find 3-5 people who have decided to use their God-given talent to advance the world's God-given message. Maybe because they would rather be a part of something bigger than themselves and be molded by men and women who believe the very things they aspire to know and understand. Maybe they'd prefer to live in a safe environment where God is glorified and the tide of peer-pressure actually flows toward Christ and not away from Him. I dunno... those may be a few reasons.

I'm only 23, but from what I've experienced in life so far, this is not the way things work in this world.

[TallyW]

I feel badly for you then LUConn....

Our country has nearly 296 million people. If we can't get 3-5 basketball players a year who have those passions... something is very wrong. These guys are out there... you watch them on ESPN every night. Men and women of faith are there... even at 17-18 years old. Some of the best H.S. programs in the country are private schools....

If we do our part to invest in the program and provide great coaches and terrific college atmosphere (heck, even if we struck a deal to get some of our games on local/regional network TV) we'd get many more of these kids. But, as of now they are under-the-radar Christians at Big-time programs. So what we've taught students is to "Silence your faith of what could be at a Christian University, not your appetite for fame and money." Hmmmmm....

[Agent2Be]

Tally - while you bring up a great point, isnt choosing a university based on the best fit for your desired professional career. If you have talent as a chef, would you choose the best culinary school? I liken it to one of my friends who wanted to be a chef, but attended Bob Jones University's culiinary program. Yes, you get trained, but is that the best place to train to be a chef. Same point as LU. If you were a bona fide NBA talent, would you go to Duke, UNC or Texas where you were sure to get exposure to help your draft position, or would you attend LU where no one was ever drafted? I am not saying that no one will ever be drefted from LU (someone has to be the first right?), but it puts you at a disadvantage in an ultracompetitive arena.

I am sure that a rebuttal to that would be that "if it's God's will - it will happen", but God also expects us to use our common sense. Have you ever thought that maybe those athletes may want to minister out in the world through their talent? Just because the mainstream media doesnt publish articles or soundbytes regarding their faith does not mean that the athletes arent making a positive impact on their team mates or coaches lives.

LU has to be the correct fit for the athlete and the athlete's situation. In my Christian HS, you were expected to attend a Christian college/university or were deemed "out of God's will". I dont believe that to be the case. You have to choose a university based on the best fit personally, spiritually, and academically (as well as athletically if you are a bona fide talent). I dont believe that Liberty is the best fit for everyone, but it is a great fit for some. My contention is that we have to raise awareness of Liberty to the potential demographic who may be in the "great fit for some" category. They are out there, but I believe that we are not using all the resources at our disposal to reach these kids. We cannot rely on a few assistant coaches to recruit for our program - we need to be living, breathing recruiters if we want our programs to be built with the correct type of kids that would be a great fit for LU. We have to be the pipeline because we are the constant. We cannot be fired or leave the program because we (in most cases) have a vested interest since we are alumni.

[LUconn]

Don't feel sorry for me. Kids that are well suited for the life at LU are a pretty narrow scope in itself. Ad into that a top 100-200 recruit? And then on top of that, one that would turn down a big conference school? I really think finding more than 1 of those per year is outragous. If I were in that position, there's no way I'm going to LU if I don't have any ties there. It's not even about the rules (and the rules do play a HUGE part) at this point, it's about exposure and winning and playing against quality competition. Which brings me to the conclusion about our success
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