- April 3rd, 2008, 7:55 am
#168753
I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your loyalty and your desire to see certain ethics upheld--however, I do believe your assesment of Royer is off base. First off -- as I think I've said before I was recruited to play baseball at Liberty by Royer and the main reason I didn't come to Liberty was Royer. Nothing personal -- I loved Randy Tomlin but obviously I never ended up there.... OK that's out of the way. Checkmate...here's the deal if you (as a school, athletic department etc.) want to be Coastal -- you want to have a chance to make regional year in and year out --maybe host one, then Royer had to go. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what your Athletic Department claims it wants...and it seems it what most of you guys (fans, alums etc.) want (?) Royer did a great job building a respectable program and yes you guys were competitive in the Big South year in and year out. He should be commended for that. Did he have the funding and benefits Toman is now getting? It doesn't appear so -- but would it have made a difference? No. Royer couldn't go bring in a Nick Schnabel even if he had the increase in salary, he also didn't have the name and respect in the "baseball community" to bring in the recruits Toman will be bringing in. It isn't his fault but its the nature of the beast.
There is a VERY large difference between being competitive in the Big South (top 2 or 3) and having an outside shot to run the tourny table -- and what Coastal (or even Winthrop the last few years) has done in being consistently ranked in the top 25 Top -- and playing a Top 25 level schedule. It doesn't just happen...Look at Gilmore, top recruits GO to coastal -- they get the kids they want...why? Not the facilities (while nice, not even close to being the Best in conference) Gilmore makes that program go -- like it or not.
Lastly, I know I'm getting long winded. The issue of Business/Faith and how to balance that. Maybe you have a point. I don't know everything that went on with Royer leaving. Maybe it wasn't handled in the best possible way --
as an outsider, however, I would take no issue with the way things where handled. Liberty decided they wanted to compete on a high level in baseball and made the (CORRECT) judgement that Royer couldn't take them there. It is a business -- or at least a competition and maybe you just feel that it doesn't matter the result, win or loss. If that's your stance I can appreciate that and respect it. I don't think it is however...Liberty just made a decision to use the resources they have in the best possible way to benefit the school and the student athletes. It seems to me pouring additional money into a program that has reached its zenith under its current management is just wasteful. Taking advantage of sub-ordinates (???if this occured) is certainly wrong, but isn't it just as wrong to fund and subsidize what is really an outreach/ambassador program to the world that is settling for mediocraty? Shouldn't they be applauded for trying to achieve the best possible result within their means and also doing so in a manner that fits with the school's mission statement. As an outsider--they are doing that now.
I appreciate the thought and spirit of your post. Sure Matt Royer was not perfect none of us are but he had the most successful three year run in LU baseball history. the guy deserves better than an ultimatum to resign or get fired! We can find issues with any program if it is problems we are looking for. So now we have a first time AD who is empowered with unprecedented $$$ to spend by the administration and he chooses not to support those in place but to make "national hires". JB could have come along side the former coaches and tried to grow his people (servant leadership) instead I believe there was dirt digging inorder to justify change. So know many willing ring the bell that a first time AD and first time head baseball coach have transformed the issue of competition. "We are so much better" is the cry! That will be seen over time not on some message board either way.
I don't believe that finishing in the top three in any conference is mediocritiy. when there are times your baseball coach can't get a meal money check and they are waiting on the bus to leave for games let's not act like the administration was paving a golden path for MR. If MR had Toman's salary maybe he could have just bought the meals himself for a tax deduction. He came here and was building a winning program against two very good teams in Winthrop and Coastal.
Let's just not Spiritualize these decision when coaches were lied too and ethics are in question. So the very foundation maybe flawed and if so it will be revealed. God has a way of promoting an agenda of people not programs.
History has showed that $$$ can generate false positive perceptions. So to simply fame all the decisions and move as "we are moving in a big time direction and these former coaches coud not get us there" may prove to be shortsighted. Yes Jb has the position/power, yes the institution is pouring in unparalleled $$$ into his administration, yes many long needed cosmetics have been addressed but two staffs were handled in a highly questionable christian business ethic fashion to generate these high profile national searches and the results with all the new $$$ have yet to surpass the successful foundations of the former coaches. Certainly we should expect that the increased $$$ should give RKM and Toman an advantage over the formers.
Many of us hurt for the former coaches and families...I don't know if Morgan Hout ever really got over his unfortunate firing here. May God bless these families with opportunities that pale their LU positions.
weeyuu wrote:do any of you know how many players were signed last year?
how many of them are starting?
do you all know what you had coming back?
do you think that the new coaches caused the players to forget the fundamentals?
is their a possibility that they were never fundamentally sound?
could the other teams have gotten a little better?
are they tough?
apparently this is really a personal thing to checkmate...........
how bad were the former coaches treated? do you know how well they were treated compared to any other
place i have ever heard of. if you know give everybody the details and let's see if everyone thinks it was unfair.
i'll still bet that the horses are on the way and toman will not settle for mediocrity.
checkmate wrote:We finish third in BSC regular season 14-7 make it to the Championship game and get forced to resign. That is baloney. But they the horses are coming and it will make everythng all right. Wow their are many things to learn about how we treat people. Trash the former coaches and their programs so ease the conscience. Shift the responsibility of performance, paint a picture of joy and fun in Barberland to blur the reality. Pour more and more money into it and pray for blessings so we can find justification to our decisions. Personal?? maybe I am loyal and don't believe that our position or our faith come with a license to use either to hurt others by manipulating the picture inorder to create an opportunity to take advantage of subordinates. Christ modeled and taught servant leadership...oh but it is a business!?!
uncafan wrote:I'm going to briefly (I do get long winded, sorry) wade into this mess at the risk of losing my head...But just an outsiders perspective. First, Proto not sure I completely agree with your High School Baseball ranking but its pretty close to being accurate. North Carolina would be up there in the top few -- not a huge state but they certainly have a high number of High School draft picks and UNC, NC State, ECU, Western Carolina, UNC Wilmington etc. etc. And all the other top level to mid-level schools in the state recruit very heavily in state. But I think your fairly accurate there...
I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your loyalty and your desire to see certain ethics upheld--however, I do believe your assesment of Royer is off base. First off -- as I think I've said before I was recruited to play baseball at Liberty by Royer and the main reason I didn't come to Liberty was Royer. Nothing personal -- I loved Randy Tomlin but obviously I never ended up there.... OK that's out of the way. Checkmate...here's the deal if you (as a school, athletic department etc.) want to be Coastal -- you want to have a chance to make regional year in and year out --maybe host one, then Royer had to go. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what your Athletic Department claims it wants...and it seems it what most of you guys (fans, alums etc.) want (?) Royer did a great job building a respectable program and yes you guys were competitive in the Big South year in and year out. He should be commended for that. Did he have the funding and benefits Toman is now getting? It doesn't appear so -- but would it have made a difference? No. Royer couldn't go bring in a Nick Schnabel even if he had the increase in salary, he also didn't have the name and respect in the "baseball community" to bring in the recruits Toman will be bringing in. It isn't his fault but its the nature of the beast.
There is a VERY large difference between being competitive in the Big South (top 2 or 3) and having an outside shot to run the tourny table -- and what Coastal (or even Winthrop the last few years) has done in being consistently ranked in the top 25 Top -- and playing a Top 25 level schedule. It doesn't just happen...Look at Gilmore, top recruits GO to coastal -- they get the kids they want...why? Not the facilities (while nice, not even close to being the Best in conference) Gilmore makes that program go -- like it or not.
Lastly, I know I'm getting long winded. The issue of Business/Faith and how to balance that. Maybe you have a point. I don't know everything that went on with Royer leaving. Maybe it wasn't handled in the best possible way --
as an outsider, however, I would take no issue with the way things where handled. Liberty decided they wanted to compete on a high level in baseball and made the (CORRECT) judgement that Royer couldn't take them there. It is a business -- or at least a competition and maybe you just feel that it doesn't matter the result, win or loss. If that's your stance I can appreciate that and respect it. I don't think it is however...Liberty just made a decision to use the resources they have in the best possible way to benefit the school and the student athletes. It seems to me pouring additional money into a program that has reached its zenith under its current management is just wasteful. Taking advantage of sub-ordinates (???if this occured) is certainly wrong, but isn't it just as wrong to fund and subsidize what is really an outreach/ambassador program to the world that is settling for mediocraty? Shouldn't they be applauded for trying to achieve the best possible result within their means and also doing so in a manner that fits with the school's mission statement. As an outsider--they are doing that now.
I appreciate the thought and spirit of your post. Sure Matt Royer was not perfect none of us are but he had the most successful three year run in LU baseball history. the guy deserves better than an ultimatum to resign or get fired! We can find issues with any program if it is problems we are looking for. So now we have a first time AD who is empowered with unprecedented $$$ to spend by the administration and he chooses not to support those in place but to make "national hires". JB could have come along side the former coaches and tried to grow his people (servant leadership) instead I believe there was dirt digging inorder to justify change. So know many willing ring the bell that a first time AD and first time head baseball coach have transformed the issue of competition. "We are so much better" is the cry! That will be seen over time not on some message board either way.
I don't believe that finishing in the top three in any conference is mediocritiy. when there are times your baseball coach can't get a meal money check and they are waiting on the bus to leave for games let's not act like the administration was paving a golden path for MR. If MR had Toman's salary maybe he could have just bought the meals himself for a tax deduction. He came here and was building a winning program against two very good teams in Winthrop and Coastal.
Let's just not Spiritualize these decision when coaches were lied too and ethics are in question. So the very foundation maybe flawed and if so it will be revealed. God has a way of promoting an agenda of people not programs.
History has showed that $$$ can generate false positive perceptions. So to simply fame all the decisions and move as "we are moving in a big time direction and these former coaches coud not get us there" may prove to be shortsighted. Yes Jb has the position/power, yes the institution is pouring in unparalleled $$$ into his administration, yes many long needed cosmetics have been addressed but two staffs were handled in a highly questionable christian business ethic fashion to generate these high profile national searches and the results with all the new $$$ have yet to surpass the successful foundations of the former coaches. Certainly we should expect that the increased $$$ should give RKM and Toman an advantage over the formers.
Many of us hurt for the former coaches and families...I don't know if Morgan Hout ever really got over his unfortunate firing here. May God bless these families with opportunities that pale their LU positions.
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"....wasn't that Churchill
Winston stop living in the past.
Winston stop living in the past.
- By flamehunter
- By LU Armchair coach