A Sea Of Red

Royer is mediocore at best. Toman actually had 1 if not 2 40 win seasons in Worthington before any updates to the field other than lighting and the outfield wall. I don't think that argument holds weight. Tomlin is a better pitching coach than quinn in my opinion. We just didn't have more than 3 or 4 good pitchers ever under Royer and we had virtually no pen.

jinxy wrote:Royer is mediocore at best. Toman actually had 1 if not 2 40 win seasons in Worthington before any updates to the field other than lighting and the outfield wall. I don't think that argument holds weight. Tomlin is a better pitching coach than quinn in my opinion. We just didn't have more than 3 or 4 good pitchers ever under Royer and we had virtually no pen.

I think that's a huge deal, if only to improve the legitimacy of the program.

Edit to add: That first year we had 35 wins. We also had Scott Jackson and Nick Schnabel. Had we been able to keep them to go along with Toman's recruiting ability we'd be so far ahead of where we are now. Man that was a great staff. We had a great pitching coach, an excellent hitting coach, and Toman was able to fly high and recruit and lead the program which is where he's best at.

Jonathan Carone wrote:

jinxy wrote:Royer is mediocore at best. Toman actually had 1 if not 2 40 win seasons in Worthington before any updates to the field other than lighting and the outfield wall. I don't think that argument holds weight. Tomlin is a better pitching coach than quinn in my opinion. We just didn't have more than 3 or 4 good pitchers ever under Royer and we had virtually no pen.

I think that's a huge deal, if only to improve the legitimacy of the program.

I am not sure about the legitimacy of the program being at stake (that might be picking nits by me), but absolutely agree that we should have a better pitching coach. There are some good Christian guys out there who are more than capable, but when they are making twice what LU would pay them, it is a big step. Especially if you are young.

flameshaw wrote:

Purple Haize wrote:It's about developing talent if you don't have the resources. Something LU athletics should focus more on IMO

We certainly have the resources, it hasn't always been that way, as you know. Do you have a specific example of a current coach at LU that doesn't develop talent? What do you base that on? W-L's? Players in the pros? Better players than when they got here, how do you measure that? I would really like to know. That is a coaches job. What kind of a coach doesn't try to develop talent? Isn't that a self-defeating direction?

Look at all of LU sports. How many players are significantly better their Senior year than their Freshman year? I can think of one glaring program where that is true. Their players show little to no improvement by the time they graduate. I pay passing attention to baseball but it seems to follow a similar pattern
And yes, you can have a TON of success if you recruit talent and are a bad coach.

The pitching is why I edited to add the comment about Scott Jackson. If we had been able to keep him to go along with the influx of arms Toman has brought in, our pitching would've been incredible.

Purple Haize wrote:

flameshaw wrote:

Purple Haize wrote:It's about developing talent if you don't have the resources. Something LU athletics should focus more on IMO

We certainly have the resources, it hasn't always been that way, as you know. Do you have a specific example of a current coach at LU that doesn't develop talent? What do you base that on? W-L's? Players in the pros? Better players than when they got here, how do you measure that? I would really like to know. That is a coaches job. What kind of a coach doesn't try to develop talent? Isn't that a self-defeating direction?

Look at all of LU sports. How many players are significantly better their Senior year than their Freshman year? I can think of one glaring program where that is true. Their players show little to no improvement by the time they graduate. I pay passing attention to baseball but it seems to follow a similar pattern
And yes, you can have a TON of success if you recruit talent and are a bad coach.

I can give examples both ways, players who have gotten significantly better and worse over their careers at LU. I just wanted to know if there is a specific example of a coach(es) who do not develop talent or try to develop talent and how do you measure/quantify that? This is a broad-brushed statement used often on this board, mostly about baseball and football, but I don't understand how people who say that can measure/prove it. I know how i do it, but it is mostly based on my opinion, feelings, and other things, not not always quantifiable. I am genuinely interested. If there is a better way, I want to use it. One thing is, if a coach is not developing talent, they probably shouldn't/won't last very long. Thanks.

It's philosophical. You just keep bringing in talent so you don't have to develop it. Kentucky basketball is a good example.
I get the impression that Toman is a great finder of talent but not a great developer of talent. I base that on how the team has performed. He's been around long enough that if he were great/good at developing talent LU would be consistently a threat to go to the CWS. They would consistently be playing in the BSC Championship game. They would even be making an appearance in the Top 25 from time to time.
If he didn't have the resources you should see nice championship runs every two years or so as the younger players develop, graduate and their replacements fill in.
It's not an exact science for sure. But things to look at

What Coastal has done is built a program, not just with facilities and bikini clad women, but developing talent. Guarantee you most Gamecock fans would die to have Gilmore in their dugout calling the shots instead of that clod Holbrook.