[Trottalot]

I have a question for all you diehard LU fans. Has the AD Barber ever fired any coach of any sport at LU? I know that you have had coaches to leave; but has he had the balls to FIRE someone. Toman needs to go now.
Flameshaw you are not the only person with "sources or inside information. Toman is a joke and there are so many better coaches out there that it's not even funny. Do the right thing AD.

[Purple Haize]

I have a question for all you diehard LU fans. Has the AD Barber every fired any coach of any sport at LU? I know that you have had coaches to leave; but has he had the balls to FIRE someone. Toman needs to go now.
Flameshaw you are not the only person with "sources or inside information. Toman is a joke and there are so many better coaches out there that it's not even funny. Do the right thing AD.

Layer and Wetmore

[BJWilliams]

I have a question for all you diehard LU fans. Has the AD Barber every fired any coach of any sport at LU? I know that you have had coaches to leave; but has he had the balls to FIRE someone. Toman needs to go now.
Flameshaw you are not the only person with "sources or inside information. Toman is a joke and there are so many better coaches out there that it's not even funny. Do the right thing AD.

Layer and Wetmore

But don't let facts get in the way of your own hatred.

[Jonathan Carone]

Could Rocco be listed under that too?

[BJWilliams]

Probably not because he didn't actually fire him...Rocco left of his own accord to take another job

[PAmedic]

Probably not because he didn't actually fire him...Rocco left of his own accord to take another job

oh the fantasy world you live in...

[PAmedic]

I was gonna add Matt Royer. That was early on in JB's tenure I think

[Jonathan Carone]

Yep. He fired Royer. Also think he may have fired the women's soccer coach in his first or second year.

[PAmedic]

I often wonder what Matt could've done with these resources

[BJWilliams]

Probably not because he didn't actually fire him...Rocco left of his own accord to take another job

oh the fantasy world you live in...

I don't think its a fantasy at all. When we look back at the record of history and see this event, it will show that Rocco left, and not that he was fired. I mean we can debate semantics and optics and context and all sorts of other details, but that's what history will show.

[thepostman]

At best it was a mutual parting.

[Jonathan Carone]

Probably not because he didn't actually fire him...Rocco left of his own accord to take another job

oh the fantasy world you live in...

I don't think its a fantasy at all. When we look back at the record of history and see this event, it will show that Rocco left, and not that he was fired. I mean we can debate semantics and optics and context and all sorts of other details, but that's what history will show.

The history book rarely says the whole story. Rocco left for another job to save face from getting fired. Jeff allowed him that dignity because of what he'd done for the program. But, as someone who has been in that situation, it's still getting fired.

[Jonathan Carone]

I often wonder what Matt could've done with these resources

It's an interesting thought. I think he would've represented the program better but I don't know that he'd had terribly much more success.

One thing is for sure though and that's that Toman wouldn't have had the same success Royer had with Royer's resources.

[olldflame]

So, are we not counting Dunton because his contract had expired?

Jeff Meyer

[Purple Haize]

So, are we not counting Dunton because his contract had expired?

Jeff Meyer

Good self policing

[flameshaw]

I often wonder what Matt could've done with these resources

It's an interesting thought. I think he would've represented the program better but I don't know that he'd had terribly much more success.

One thing is for sure though and that's that Toman wouldn't have had the same success Royer had with Royer's resources.

Jon, how can you say this? No one has any idea if he could have had the same success as Royer with the same resources. That is 100% conjecture at the best. To say it "is for sure" is a ridiculous statement, especially since we will never know, there is no way to substantiate it, Frankly it is statements like this, that discredit the haters arguments against him and make it apparent, that it is likely a personal dislike for the man that drives the narrative.
Johnny Hutton had more success that Royer and he had no more resources than Royer, most would say less. And if we want to go there, most of the players who played for Hutton, (at least for a 6 year period that I have first hand information), despised the guy. He was a good man, but the players could not relate and visa versa. He even told the players that he let his wife make up the lineup for some games. The guy that kept the peace in that situation and held the team together, was the assistant coach. (I can't remember his name right now, but he became HC after Hutton finally retired).
Royer, at best, was a very average coach by LU, or any other standard you want to devise. His record was barely over .500 here, no conference championships, etc. Maybe there is a reason he was the interim coach at Grove City College last year and was a high school baseball coach before that. You would think if he was an exceptional coach, someone would find a place for him, maybe even an assistant at a major program.

[Jonathan Carone]

Toman is a recruiter. He's gotta have facilities, resources, or a great conference to sell the school. When he first got here, he complained all the time about the stadium and what they had. If he didn't have the budget he currently has with the facilities he now has (and could point towards in his first few years) then he wouldn't have been able to get the talent here he's gotten. Without the talent, he doesn't do as well.

Royer wasn't great, but he at least had Tomlin and some other guys around who could coach. They developed guys and had a better approach to the season so that's where their tournament success came from.

As for how I can say this - you forget that I was in school during Royer and Toman. I had many friends who played for both of them and developed relationships with staffers who were around for both of them. Just as you talk to scouts and have talked to Toman to form your opinions, I have people I talk to regularly as well that have helped me form mine.

[flameshaw]

Maybe I missed something, where did Royer have tournament success? We didn't win a conference championship while he was here that I remember. I am pretty old, maybe I forgot.
So Toman is a recruiter? Nothing else? I guess you can recruit your way to the playoffs and not be a decent coach?
It is very plausible to say that Al Worthington and Bobby Richardson were better recruiters. We had better top end players back then, for sure. You have to do both to be successful.
I agree that Tomlin was a very good coach and is a great guy. I agree that we could do better with our current staff and Toman should be held accountable for upgrading his staff, or suffer the consequences.
Still, getting back to the original argument, that Royer would definitely be better than Toman with the same facilities, is a ridiculous, unfounded statement. If you were friends with every player, staff member, etc that have ever played for both coaches, it is still a bogus statement. If all of my contacts, scouts, former players, etc. said the same thing, that would also be a ridiculous/bogus statement. No one will ever know that. It is an opinion, nothing more and is impossible to prove.
Finally, have you considered that former players, staff, etc. may have an agenda? I heard players that I played with, at all levels, lie quite often to cover up their shortcomings, poor play, not making the majors, etc. It can always be someone else's fault. The same for scouts, and others. It happens. Your hate for Toman is over the top. You and I have had discussions in the past about the situation. You can go back and see that I have only defended him in the recent past. We have not done as well in the last couple of years, so he has to do better, or he will lose the support of the AD and the Administration, in this case, that is all that matters. But those who continually hate on the guy and use such silly statements to back up their argument, is frankly comical and calls into question the veracity of their statements in other areas.

[Purple Haize]

It's about developing talent if you don't have the resources. Something LU athletics should focus more on IMO

[Jonathan Carone]

I think you're arguing something I never said. Here's what I said:

Royer would've possibly had a little more success than he did had he had Toman's resources.

Toman would not have had as much success as Royer did with Royer's resources.

For your point about Royer having success in the tournament - he never won, but he was in the finals quite a few times regardless of how good our team was during that year and against great Coastal and Winthrop teams. Getting to the finals is a successful tournament run if you're anything other than the regular season champ, something he never was. (That also means Toman had tournament success this year despite the horrible season.)

[flameshaw]

It's about developing talent if you don't have the resources. Something LU athletics should focus more on IMO

We certainly have the resources, it hasn't always been that way, as you know. Do you have a specific example of a current coach at LU that doesn't develop talent? What do you base that on? W-L's? Players in the pros? Better players than when they got here, how do you measure that? I would really like to know. That is a coaches job. What kind of a coach doesn't try to develop talent? Isn't that a self-defeating direction?

[flameshaw]

I think you're arguing something I never said. Here's what I said:

Royer would've possibly had a little more success than he did had he had Toman's resources.

Toman would not have had as much success as Royer did with Royer's resources.

For your point about Royer having success in the tournament - he never won, but he was in the finals quite a few times regardless of how good our team was during that year and against great Coastal and Winthrop teams. Getting to the finals is a successful tournament run if you're anything other than the regular season champ, something he never was. (That also means Toman had tournament success this year despite the horrible season.)

Let me help you here, this is what you said, "One thing is for sure though and that's that Toman wouldn't have had the same success Royer had with Royer's resources." I underlined and bolded it,etc, from your original statement, so there would be no question about what you said. How is that any different than what I said?
Now, you say, it is "Royer would've possibly had a little more success than he did had he had Toman's resources." and "Toman would not have had as much success as Royer did with Royer's resources." Not quite as dogmatic/definitive as " for sure".
Come on Jon, you are better than that. I don't want to argue and get overly critical, but in the past when you have made indefensible/incorrect statements ie. citizens being able to get automatic weapons, and others, the response is always, maybe I was misunderstood. (To be clear I am paraphrasing the last 4 words........sheesh).
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, it is as valued as anyone else, but to portray it as fact, is silly and unreliable at best.

[Jonathan Carone]

"One thing is for sure though and that's that Toman wouldn't have had the same success Royer had with Royer's resources."

is the same as

"Toman would not have had as much success as Royer did with Royer's resources."

Both are definitive statements I believe.

[BJWilliams]

Personally I don't think you could make a definitive in EITHER direction. Toman could have done better with Royer's level of resources, or he could have done worse...at the same time, Royer could have done worse with Toman's level of resources, or he could have done better. We will never know. We can speculate til the cows come home (the beauty of a message board), but I can't say that either would have done better or worse with the other's level of resources.

[ballcoach15]

I am more concerned about Pitching Coach than I am Head Coach. Our pitching was horrible this past season, with a couple exceptions.