[Hold My Own]

Does a tree make a sound when it falls in a forest with nobody around?


Is Coastal still a rival if you've never beaten them?

[The Natural]

Been a long long time since I posted...Oct 2011 to be specific. I still cheer for LU to win. Most of my " lifer friends " tell me it isn't worth it anymore to post. Winning isn't the problem. Toman appears to do that very well. But reality is he has had every advantage that Royer never had. Here is a few that just seem to just get glossed over most...

Double the salary
Assistants that make at least 20 K more than MR ever did
Toman had a real 5 year contract ( thanks to Barber ) Royer never had a contract ever. Just at will year by year
Field improvements like no-one ever had before. The baseball field was a recruiting eyesore when MR was coach.
He had 3 different A.D. in his 5 year stint. How do you think that worked ?
His budget was brutal compared to Toman and yet he won.
Barber had Toman already chosen when he got to LU. Matt actuallyrespected Barber but the dye was cast for his departure long the Doc died. MR couldn't stop the process.
BTW Royer actually beat Coastal and was in two final games for the Big South title

But the above pales in comparrison to one major issue...the exchange of the ideal of developing Christ centered athletes in a world that is going to hell ! All in the name of winning ( or beating Coastal etc ). It is not beating Coastal that would set LU apart...but HOW LU would beat Coastal that would make a bigger statement about LU. I pray for Toman, Jerry JR and Barber and don't wish the leadership any harm.

For the record...I am a head baseball coach at a christian university. IMHO Doc lost sight of that important distinctive for the sake of enrollment and a false carricature of what winning is supposed to look like. I still love LU. Just think it has lost its spiritual compass with athletics.

Now...Back to my man cave

[Hold My Own]

Good post, I respect the way you went about proving your point. Its a shame you dont post more but I guess being around here too long will cause you to turn these good posts into blood boiling rants...well, that's at least what this place does to me at times

[jinxy]

Like HMO said, i think you make your points in a more effective way. The one question i would have is about the spiritual state of the program. I dont know how anyone could know completely about the spiritual health of the program unless your in that clubhouse. I know back when i was in school 03-07 we had our fair share of guys who gave the program a black eye and were allowed to hang around longer than they should have (several were eventually kicked off, a couple were very good starters). Fast forward to today, it seems to me that we have as many if not more solid christians on the team today than we had back then. Where does this notion come from that the spirituality is gone completely?, is it the walk-up music?, the vibes of the team on campus? the fact that Toman argues calls? If it's the walk up music (especially the rap) i find that troubling because many of those guys have lecrae and trip lee etc. that are christian rappers who actually say more in there songs than a lot of praise and worship songs do. I know it sound ridiculous but i used to hate rap and hip hop (still not my favorite) but those guys have really grown on me. I'm genuinely asking and i dont want to trash anybody's rep. publically but i just dont understand where this notion comes from. There has to be something to it because theres 3-4 posters that keep claiming this.

[jbock13]

Baseball is much for conducive to a spiritual environment, especially at LU. It's a more rural, traditional sport, so most guys have gone up in church, even if they've made a few mistakes. Football and basketball are the difficult ones. The urban culture tends to be much more secular in nature, openly hostile to Christians. Perhaps I over generalized a bit, but for the most part I believe it to be true.

I have no reason to believe that our baseball team is spiritually empty. I like what jinxy said about it.

[Hold My Own]

Baseball is much for conducive to a spiritual environment, especially at LU. It's a more rural, traditional sport, so most guys have gone up in church, even if they've made a few mistakes. Football and basketball are the difficult ones. The urban culture tends to be much more secular in nature, openly hostile to Christians. Perhaps I over generalized a bit, but for the most part I believe it to be true.

[bigsmooth]

Been a long long time since I posted...Oct 2011 to be specific. I still cheer for LU to win. Most of my " lifer friends " tell me it isn't worth it anymore to post. Winning isn't the problem. Toman appears to do that very well. But reality is he has had every advantage that Royer never had. Here is a few that just seem to just get glossed over most...

Double the salary
Assistants that make at least 20 K more than MR ever did
Toman had a real 5 year contract ( thanks to Barber ) Royer never had a contract ever. Just at will year by year
Field improvements like no-one ever had before. The baseball field was a recruiting eyesore when MR was coach.
He had 3 different A.D. in his 5 year stint. How do you think that worked ?
His budget was brutal compared to Toman and yet he won.
Barber had Toman already chosen when he got to LU. Matt actuallyrespected Barber but the dye was cast for his departure long the Doc died. MR couldn't stop the process.
BTW Royer actually beat Coastal and was in two final games for the Big South title

But the above pales in comparrison to one major issue...the exchange of the ideal of developing Christ centered athletes in a world that is going to hell ! All in the name of winning ( or beating Coastal etc ). It is not beating Coastal that would set LU apart...but HOW LU would beat Coastal that would make a bigger statement about LU. I pray for Toman, Jerry JR and Barber and don't wish the leadership any harm.

For the record...I am a head baseball coach at a christian university. IMHO Doc lost sight of that important distinctive for the sake of enrollment and a false carricature of what winning is supposed to look like. I still love LU. Just think it has lost its spiritual compass with athletics.

Now...Back to my man cave

good to hear from you Natural. you always bring good thoughts unlike ToC and Trot. i still disagree with some of what you said.

1. field improvements- toman still has wortington until next year. not applicable
2. toman has won more games than royer...not applicable
3. royer 3 finals in five years, toman, 2 finals in four years, he is in his fifth year
4. again you cant blame JB for being able to secure better salaries. why didnt kim or tom park get that done? just because a coach can gets paid more does not make him a better coach right? it was the AD making the case. yes its more pressure on the new staff to get it done.
5. in rgeards to spiritual matters, last years team was not the greatest. there have always been a core group of guys that are solid and it's like that with any LU team. So if you want to bash Toman, bash the rest of our coaches. Royer did not have 100% Christian guys on his team.
6. royer had two losing seasons and did not even make the tournament one year. Toman has never had a losing season. those are the facts.

Natural, i know you are a royer guy and i appreciate the loyalty. but the facts are this program has improved under Toman other than beating Coastal. Is that aspect enough to get toman fired? yes indeed in my book and it still remains to be seen. If he is here next year and with the new facility and his budget ad he does not get it done, then by all means show him the door. Sure i want our athletes to be Christians, but the truth is we have some that are not and being here is the perfect way for these unsaved people to know the Lord. always good to hear from you natural and hope your season is going well.

[bigsmooth]

Baseball is much for conducive to a spiritual environment, especially at LU. It's a more rural, traditional sport, so most guys have gone up in church, even if they've made a few mistakes. Football and basketball are the difficult ones. The urban culture tends to be much more secular in nature, openly hostile to Christians. Perhaps I over generalized a bit, but for the most part I believe it to be true.

I have no reason to believe that our baseball team is spiritually empty. I like what jinxy said about it.

this has to be one of the most absured things i have ever heard. you are going to tell me a sport is more conducive to spiritual things? we have had some baseball players at this school who have been awful and unchurched. we have athletes like this in every sport. you have often referenced "urban culture". that usually refers to black athletes. not all black kids are unchurched, in fact go to a black church in any urban area and they are filled up. kids choose to go on the path that they want despite of the upbringing. Bottom line to say a sport is more conducive to Christianity is just not correct. Lacrosse is a primarliy white, rich sport, that is not urban, and the culture is full of drugs and alcohol. anyway, if i misinterpreted any of your comments, please set it straight. thanks

[bigsmooth]

Like HMO said, i think you make your points in a more effective way. The one question i would have is about the spiritual state of the program. I dont know how anyone could know completely about the spiritual health of the program unless your in that clubhouse. I know back when i was in school 03-07 we had our fair share of guys who gave the program a black eye and were allowed to hang around longer than they should have (several were eventually kicked off, a couple were very good starters). Fast forward to today, it seems to me that we have as many if not more solid christians on the team today than we had back then. Where does this notion come from that the spirituality is gone completely?, is it the walk-up music?, the vibes of the team on campus? the fact that Toman argues calls? If it's the walk up music (especially the rap) i find that troubling because many of those guys have lecrae and trip lee etc. that are christian rappers who actually say more in there songs than a lot of praise and worship songs do. I know it sound ridiculous but i used to hate rap and hip hop (still not my favorite) but those guys have really grown on me. I'm genuinely asking and i dont want to trash anybody's rep. publically but i just dont understand where this notion comes from. There has to be something to it because theres 3-4 posters that keep claiming this.

the music is the only thing that kinda gets to me sometimes. Alex Close has that song "i just want to use your love tonight" in his lineup of tunes but other than that, i think the music is fine.

[jbock13]

Baseball is much for conducive to a spiritual environment, especially at LU. It's a more rural, traditional sport, so most guys have gone up in church, even if they've made a few mistakes. Football and basketball are the difficult ones. The urban culture tends to be much more secular in nature, openly hostile to Christians. Perhaps I over generalized a bit, but for the most part I believe it to be true.

I have no reason to believe that our baseball team is spiritually empty. I like what jinxy said about it.

this has to be one of the most absured things i have ever heard. you are going to tell me a sport is more conducive to spiritual things? we have had some baseball players at this school who have been awful and unchurched. we have athletes like this in every sport. you have often referenced "urban culture". that usually refers to black athletes. not all black kids are unchurched, in fact go to a black church in any urban area and they are filled up. kids choose to go on the path that they want despite of the upbringing. Bottom line to say a sport is more conducive to Christianity is just not correct. Lacrosse is a primarliy white, rich sport, that is not urban, and the culture is full of drugs and alcohol. anyway, if i misinterpreted any of your comments, please set it straight. thanks

You misinterepreted a lot of what I said, specifically on race. But I also didn't really articulate it well so I'll just drop it. Besides you make some good points that I should have thought about first.

[Humble_Opinion]

I think it ultimately comes down to the fiscal state of the university and the athletics program. The first 36 years of this school's history were rough. It was one financial mess after another. Things are different now though... we actually have money to spend and we actually push our teams to win. Sometimes I think Christians have a tendency to view 'worldly success' in terms of dollars as some sort of reduction in spirituality... No doubt this place has changed in recent years since the beginning of the school. We aren't the typical Baptist College anymore. But I think it's judgmental to state that anyone in leadership has lost sight of the university's mission. Don't forget that while Athletics exists to "train champions for Christ" that there is also a stated goal since the beginning to compete at the highest level of sports. It just so happens that now we actually have the funding to bring in top level coaching talent to assist us in accomplishing that goal.

[bigsmooth]

seriously, i would love to know what you meant. if im wrong i sincerely apologize. i just want to understand.

[SuperJon]

but the facts are this program has improved under Toman other than beating Coastal. Is that aspect enough to get toman fired? yes indeed in my book and it still remains to be seen. If he is here next year and with the new facility and his budget ad he does not get it done, then by all means show him the door.

It is my understanding that he got a 5-year extension before this season so he will be here next year.

[The Natural]

WOW

Goodbye !

[bigsmooth]

but the facts are this program has improved under Toman other than beating Coastal. Is that aspect enough to get toman fired? yes indeed in my book and it still remains to be seen. If he is here next year and with the new facility and his budget ad he does not get it done, then by all means show him the door.

It is my understanding that he got a 5-year extension before this season so he will be here next year.

have not heard that, but im going to ask. usually something like that is reported.

[The Natural]

[quote="Humble_ But I think it's judgmental to state that anyone in leadership has lost sight of the university's mission. Don't forget that while Athletics exists to "train champions for Christ" that there is also a stated goal since the beginning to compete at the highest level of sports. It just so happens that now we actually have the funding to bring in top level coaching talent to assist us in accomplishing that goal.[/quote]

I know you don't mean to say that " training champions for Christ " and " competing at the highest level " are mutually exclusive...but it sure appears you have accepted and placed one above the other. I just cringe when I see Doc Falwell's favorite phrase " Champions for Christ " thrown around like a fast food commercial. To me, we are told to examine and yes make judgements about the " fruit " when one invokes the very name of Christ. The real Judge has told us He would rather spit us out of His mouth than have us be luke warm. Doc Falwell said to burn the place down if it ever ceased to be what the mission created Liberty to be. I realize I am part of the ole gang that had chapel in a circus tent and would use hefty bags to walk to class to keep the red clay off our clothes. But I am forever part of LU and some of my children after me. I will leave it there. This is not really a new debate...but too close to " home " for me both personally and professionally not to comment.

May God Bless Liberty !

[jbock13]

I still don't get your point.

[SumItUp]

I still don't get your point.

You really don't get it?

[jbock13]

I still don't get your point.

You really don't get it?

I think I do. I just want to be sure.

[BJWilliams]

I wouldnt cast the aspersion that the school has "lost its mission" or lost its way or whatever youre asserting Natural...I mean we arent gonna get a bunch of angelic choir boys who have never done a thing wrong and spend their time away from the field discussion Spurgeon, CS Lewis and the great theologians of our time in between bible studies and their fourth daily quiet time. Course that doesnt mean we get kids with mile long rap sheets either...