[LUnpretty11]

LU lost to GMU by 4. GMU beat ODU by 16. LU is better than ODU! Wait....

That's not the argument. The argument is that we lost a very close game to a team that is proving they are a premier talent in the nation. That's something that definitely builds confidence. Especially with the young team we have right now.

[ToTheLeft]

I dunno, I guess I just don't buy with out women's team being that many tiers below UK. We're not top tier, but we're not on the same level the men's team is. We've had votes in the top 25, we're well respected. We should be competitive in any game except for those against the very, very top level (UConn, Tenn, etc.).

[jcmanson]

Haha, it’s good to get some tempers flaring in the women’s forum.

Our women’s program is to the point where we don’t need moral victories, we just need to win. We all know we can play with (and beat) the top teams in the nation. We just need to do it in the NCAA tourney. And moral victories don’t get you there. We should just be flat out mad at ourselves for not beating Kentucky. That should inspire us to do better next year. Not the fact that we played them closer than a #1 and #5 seed.

[ToTheLeft]

Haha, it’s good to get some tempers flaring in the women’s forum.

Our women’s program is to the point where we don’t need moral victories, we just need to win. We all know we can play with (and beat) the top teams in the nation. We just need to do it in the NCAA tourney. And moral victories don’t get you there. We should just be flat out mad at ourselves for not beating Kentucky. That should inspire us to do better next year. Not the fact that we played them closer than a #1 and #5 seed.

Absolutely! Especially the bolded part.

[BJWilliams]

We should be consistently in the top 25 frankly...I mean I was upset that we lost to Kentucky (especially considering what theyve done SINCE that game) but I also know that we have come a long way from losing by 50 in the first round like we did in 1998 (correct me if Im wrong on that one). We are hanging with some very talented teams. We should be shooting for top 25 and no worse than a 12 seed next year

[olldflame]

Haha, it’s good to get some tempers flaring in the women’s forum.

Our women’s program is to the point where we don’t need moral victories, we just need to win. We all know we can play with (and beat) the top teams in the nation. We just need to do it in the NCAA tourney. And moral victories don’t get you there. We should just be flat out mad at ourselves for not beating Kentucky. That should inspire us to do better next year. Not the fact that we played them closer than a #1 and #5 seed.

On what do you base those contentions manson? Certainly not on anything that has happened on the court recently. We made our sweet 16 run with Katie Feenstra and 6 other seniors. Even then, we did not really face one of the "top teams in the nation" until we met LSU in the third round, and we got our butts kicked. That was 5 years ago. Since then we have been dominated in every NCAA game til this year. We have a couple of wins against the likes of UVA and VT in what were down years for them. Our best win in that entire period was probably at Xavier 2 years ago.

We weren't even picked to win the BSC this year, and we almost didn't. We have a team that is dominated by Freshmen and Sophomores and is going to get nothing but better. All of you "purists" who say a loss is a loss and we should have beaten Kentucky need a reality check. I'm rooting for UK to make the final 4. The further they go and the better they look, the better we look. I find the idea that you can't gain confidence by competing well against a very tough opponent unless you win the game to be narrow and condescending.

[flameshaw]

Haha, it’s good to get some tempers flaring in the women’s forum.

Our women’s program is to the point where we don’t need moral victories, we just need to win. We all know we can play with (and beat) the top teams in the nation. We just need to do it in the NCAA tourney. And moral victories don’t get you there. We should just be flat out mad at ourselves for not beating Kentucky. That should inspire us to do better next year. Not the fact that we played them closer than a #1 and #5 seed.

On what do you base those contentions manson? Certainly not on anything that has happened on the court recently. We made our sweet 16 run with Katie Feenstra and 6 other seniors. Even then, we did not really face one of the "top teams in the nation" until we met LSU in the third round, and we got our butts kicked. That was 5 years ago. Since then we have been dominated in every NCAA game til this year. We have a couple of wins against the likes of UVA and VT in what were down years for them. Our best win in that entire period was probably at Xavier 2 years ago.

We weren't even picked to win the BSC this year, and we almost didn't. We have a team that is dominated by Freshmen and Sophomores and is going to get nothing but better. All of you "purists" who say a loss is a loss and we should have beaten Kentucky need a reality check. I'm rooting for UK to make the final 4. The further they go and the better they look, the better we look. I find the idea that you can't gain confidence by competing well against a very tough opponent unless you win the game to be narrow and condescending.

+1

[ToTheLeft]

No, I'm not saying we "should" have beat Kentucky. You have a very nice way of taking what people say and bringing it to where you can refute it.

We should be, and were competitive with Kentucky. That's fine, let's see how we fell short and get fired up to win in the tourney next year. Who cares what UK does now? It doesn't make us any better or worse, and I really hope the girls on the team, or recruits, aren't basing our worth on how UK is doing. Our game against Kentucky has nothing to do with anything but our game against Kentucky. There's no bowl game to get into, no BCS to impress. We don't need style points. That's for losers. Winners see what they did right and wrong, and move on to get better. I would hope that the girls have been too busy getting up jumpers in the gym to even know how UK is doing in the tourney.

[JK37]

I really hope recruits aren't basing our worth on how UK is doing.

In what way would it be bad if they were?

[ToTheLeft]

Because it's so trivial, and because UK has nothing to do with Liberty Women's basketball. We played within 10 points of a top 4 seed. We competed. We led at half-time. We showed signs of being capable of winning that basketball game. Those are things girls can look at and say "Wow, LU is going somewhere, I want to be a part of that!" Kentucky beating Nebraska doesn't tell those girls any more about LU than they already knew, because it has nothing to do with LU. Any given night is a different game. Losing better than someone else loses means NOTHING. Take away the garbage time three by Jelena and we lose by nine, not six. Are we now a worse team because we lost by three more points? No, because it has NOTHING to do with how competitive we were. We competed and we played well against UK, and that's what I would want to see, and what I hope the girls coming here want to see.

[Sly Fox]

A tad testy today, eh TTL?

[ToTheLeft]

Eh, nothing exciting going on in the sports world, might as well stir up some trouble.

I've been away from this for a while, I wanna see how quickly I can villify myself again I guess.

[JK37]

Agreed that the team shouldn't think much more of the game's outcome based upon Kentucky's more recent results. However, if that information can be manipulated such a way as to make a recruit take slightly more notice (say, if KY makes the Final Four or - even better- wins a NC), then there's no reason not to do so.

[olldflame]

"We competed and played well against UK". Absolutely! But if UK had then lost by 15 to Michigan State, the perception is that was to be expected because they were overseeded and not that good. They played in a SEC that is not what it used to be in WBB (witness Tennessee losing to Baylor and Georgia getting annhialated by Stanford.) I understand all about the transitive property not applying to sports, but you won't convince me that UK's success does not make our program look better or our players and fans feel better.

[jcmanson]

When I said we can compete with and beat the best teams in the country I wasn't referring to the top 10-15 teams in the nation because we obviously aren't on that level yet and probably never will be. I'm referring to everyone else. Teams like Xavier, UVA, VT, Tulane, JMU, etc.

And I don't think we were dominated against ODU. Sure the final score may indicate so, but that was a highly competitive game for about a half.

[Rocketfan]

"We competed and played well against UK". Absolutely! I understand all about the transitive property not applying to sports, but you won't convince me that UK's success does not make our program look better or our players and fans feel better.

Two words....Ken Karcher

[olldflame]

Oh yes, there's a valid comparison. Carey Green and Ken Karcher.

[Rocketfan]

Oh yes, there's a valid comparison. Carey Green and Ken Karcher.

I didn't compare the coaches...I was merely saying your philosophy on this loss and Karchers on all losses were the same.....let me guess you and Karcher were probably best friends?

[ToTheLeft]

"We competed and played well against UK". Absolutely! But if UK had then lost by 15 to Michigan State, the perception is that was to be expected because they were overseeded and not that good. They played in a SEC that is not what it used to be in WBB (witness Tennessee losing to Baylor and Georgia getting annhialated by Stanford.) I understand all about the transitive property not applying to sports, but you won't convince me that UK's success does not make our program look better or our players and fans feel better.

Doesn't make me feel any better or worse. That was a good UK team with some great athletes, and we hung with them. Has nothing to do with how they do from here on out. Thru the season and against us they proved they were a good team. They earned a 4 seed. They played well in the SEC. A loss in the 2nd round as a 4 seed is not something to prove they were "overseeded". That's just March.

[Purple Haize]

This should be interesting fodder for your Moral/No Moral Vicotry crowd:
Our NCAA Tourney record is 2-13. We have been to the 2nd round 1 time. We have been to the Sweet 16 1 time.
Were there Moral Victories in the 13 loses?
Is this "objectively" a great NCAA Tourney record?
Discuss

[BJWilliams]

Objectively...no it SUCKS! for a team as good at LU has been the last number of years and to onyl have 2 wins (coming in the same year mind you) its a terrible record. With as dominating as we have been we should at least have had one other magical run through the tournament if nothing else.

[olldflame]

Objectively...no it SUCKS! for a team as good at LU has been the last number of years and to onyl have 2 wins (coming in the same year mind you) its a terrible record. With as dominating as we have been we should at least have had one other magical run through the tournament if nothing else.

OK BJ, let's think a minute. What is it that we have dominated? One of the worst conferences in the NCAA. Fortunately however, the champion of this pitiful conference still gets an automatic bid. If not, we would still be looking for our first tournament bid, because none of those 13 teams would have gotten an at-large. The highest seed we have ever had in the tournament is a 12. We went 29-0 one year and it got us the last seed in the tourney and a date with undefeated Tennessee. Quite frankly, in most of our first round games we basically stood NO CHANCE. Of those 13 losses, almost all have been blowouts. I'm very proud of what our WBB program has done in dominating the BSC, but we need to put it in perspective. Having said that, I believe we are poised to have a great season next year, and perhaps get a decent seed and make another tourney run.

BTW, Kentucky came up short of the final 4, losing to Oklahoma 88-68. Dunlop had a monster game (31 and 13), but the guards who killed us didn't show up. I'm just a little bummed.

[ToTheLeft]

Oh noes! Now we're a worse team because UK lost! I hope the recruits don't back out of their commitments.

[ToTheLeft]

This should be interesting fodder for your Moral/No Moral Vicotry crowd:
Our NCAA Tourney record is 2-13. We have been to the 2nd round 1 time. We have been to the Sweet 16 1 time.
Were there Moral Victories in the 13 loses?
Is this "objectively" a great NCAA Tourney record?
Discuss

Part of it, from my perspective, is thinking "How much better would our record be if we handled business in the regular season better, earned a higher seed, and had very winnable games?"

Close loses to ACC/SEC/CAA teams don't help RPI. Wins do. And if we get our wins in the regular season, we're more likely to get a good seed and a favorable matchup. Imagine if we won a couple of the big games we had this year, and moved up to an 11 or 12. If we competed with UK, we could compete with anyone ranked lower than them (in theory). JMU got a 9 seed, no reason we couldn't be that high if we handled business.

[BJWilliams]

Oh noes! Now we're a worse team because UK lost! I hope the recruits don't back out of their commitments.

I know you're playing devil's advocate based on the conversation of late in this thread but even with my post from yesterday, I dont thin that Kentucky's loss makes us necessarily a worse team...just means that a team that was better than us that day got beat by another team that was better than them that day. Kentucky is a good team...Oklahoma was a better team last night.