The most successful program on Liberty Mountain deserves its own forum. We give Coach Green and the Lady Flames their props while breaking down their run to the Big Dance once again.
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By BJWilliams
#528123 Well Liberty lost today to CSU in the quarterfinals of the Big South Tournament, 52-50, the first loss before the semifinals since Carey Green became the head coach.

With the loss, which also caps the first losing season in a very long time, the topic, and question is simple...what's our direction? I have the utmost respect for him having met him and his wife, but Coach Green isn't getting any younger and WBB is the only program that hasn't seen a coaching change out of the "Big 4" in the last 15 years...I probably would pull the trigger, but do you think IM will make that call as we head into the offseason? If so, where do we look?
Last edited by BJWilliams on June 8th, 2017, 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Cider Jim
#528124 I was at the second half of the game, and we were a missed layup away from tying the game with only about a minute left.
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By Purple Haize
#528128 I will say this. This season marks the 20th Anniversary of the Greatest Game in Womens Basketball history. The greatest comeback maybe in LU hoops history. The first ever NCAA appearance of the WBB team and the start of this run. Wouldn't it have been nice to have a ceremony recognizing that accomplishment?
By ballah09
#528129 I only watched the last 5 mins of the game but it was one of the most ugliest games I have ever seen. I think I only watched liberty produce turnovers after turnovers and they literally had no offensive sets. Just force it in the paint and waiting until the shot clock is about to expire.

I know that's a typical Carey Green team but it was like watching two d3 teams playing.

I hope IM gave him his walking papers. His teams are crap
By thesportscritic
#528130 It's time for a change. Carey's teams since 2005 have gone backwards and all of the other schools in the Big South conference have caught up and surpassed us.
By ALAFlamesFan
#528134 We hired IM for more than football and it wasn't to watch this nonsense. Give the man a nice parting gift and move on.
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By Purple Haize
#528135 Here's the catch - 22:
This was possibly his most inexperienced team ever
Why was it his most inexperienced team ever
By ballah09
#528138
Purple Haize wrote:Here's the catch - 22:
This was possibly his most inexperienced team ever
Why was it his most inexperienced team ever


This. With the recent trend, its not a stretch to think that next years team will be just as inexperienced as this years team. You should expect a couple impact players to leave.
By flamehunter
#528140 My feeling is that we lacked experience and talent. We have some good players but not at the level we have seen in the past. However I think the biggest strike against coach green is the turnover plague. Year after year after year. No improvement and apparently no effort to improve on it.
By ballcoach15
#528145 "where do we go from here"

May be the best question ever asked on this Board. I am more concerned about future of WBB, than any other sport at LU.

Other sports appear to be on the way "up", but not WBB.
By Chippy
#528149 It's hard to watch this team or most of CG's teams. They are so slow and the game has speeded up so much in the last 10 years. We get beat by quicker, more aggressive yet shorter and less talented teams. Watching our women get beat routinely off the dribble was disheartening. It looked like they were never taught how to play man to man defense or team defense. Asheville, Campbell CSU at all play in your face man to man and deny defense as do most teams now a days. CSU is in the top 20 in the nation in causing TOs yet they have maybe 1 or 2 D1 players on their roster and no one taller thasn 6'. Our D is two feet away from their player. We are perennially in last place in the steals category and creating TO's. New coaching philosophy (maybe new coach) and I think it's time to break up the coaching staff as the team has leveled off at an undesirable level. I thought they would be hard pressed to win 10 D1 games but they managed 12 Play Basketball
By JK37
#528150 No possible way the philosophy changes without changing the coach. I'm not advocating for a coaching change one way or the other; I'm just saying CG isn't changing his ways.
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By Purple Haize
#528153
Chippy wrote:It's hard to watch this team or most of CG's teams. They are so slow and the game has speeded up so much in the last 10 years. We get beat by quicker, more aggressive yet shorter and less talented teams. Watching our women get beat routinely off the dribble was disheartening. It looked like they were never taught how to play man to man defense or team defense. Asheville, Campbell CSU at all play in your face man to man and deny defense as do most teams now a days. CSU is in the top 20 in the nation in causing TOs yet they have maybe 1 or 2 D1 players on their roster and no one taller thasn 6'. Our D is two feet away from their player. We are perennially in last place in the steals category and creating TO's. New coaching philosophy (maybe new coach) and I think it's time to break up the coaching staff as the team has leveled off at an undesirable level. I thought they would be hard pressed to win 10 D1 games but they managed 12 Play Basketball


PHRASING :shock:
By flamehunter
#528155 year # Games LU TO Avg Opp TO Avg
2006 31 580 18.7 489 15.8
2007 31 575 18.5 512 16.5
2008 32 554 17.3 532 16.6
2009 33 665 20.2 551 16.7
2010 33 649 19.7 683 20.7
2011 33 677 20.5 579 17.5
2012 33 680 20.6 557 16.9
2013 34 646 19.0 575 16.9
2014 31 563 18.2 407 13.1
2015 33 542 16.4 515 15.6
2016 33 623 18.9 396 12.0
2017 30 548 18.3 424 14.1

Past twelve seasons, as far back as season stats go on the website. LU women averaged 18.9 TO per game compared to 16.0 for their opponents. Considering we were usually the better (talent-wise) team on the floor, that is astounding to me. 2016 was mind-blowing (click-bait!). 2016 stats
By Chippy
#528165
flamehunter wrote:year # Games LU TO Avg Opp TO Avg
2006 31 580 18.7 489 15.8
2007 31 575 18.5 512 16.5
2008 32 554 17.3 532 16.6
2009 33 665 20.2 551 16.7
2010 33 649 19.7 683 20.7
2011 33 677 20.5 579 17.5
2012 33 680 20.6 557 16.9
2013 34 646 19.0 575 16.9
2014 31 563 18.2 407 13.1
2015 33 542 16.4 515 15.6
2016 33 623 18.9 396 12.0
2017 30 548 18.3 424 14.1

Past twelve seasons, as far back as season stats go on the website. LU women averaged 18.9 TO per game compared to 16.0 for their opponents. Considering we were usually the better (talent-wise) team on the floor, that is astounding to me. 2016 was mind-blowing (click-bait!). 2016 stats

2016 was probably our most experienced team. 6 seniors and a total of 9-10 players who had started multiple times. In 2015, a good year, would have been like any other year if it were not for Karly Buer a GS transfer. literally fell in the lap of CG, who made us better defensively and offensively. Take her out of the equation and we have the same ol' same ol'. IMHO.
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By BJWilliams
#528170 As I said in my OP, after a result like that, I still would probably pull the trigger on a change at the top if I was the AD
By JK37
#528179 For a change such as we've all seen to occur, there have to be underlying issues. Lose 9 players from the roster a year ago, and then win only 12 games...what gives?

I never saw the team this season. But all indications from my Big South friends are that LU has the talent to be good again very soon, it was just young/inexperienced this season. That can be true, and results still not match talent level.

While the volume of turnovers alone is not good, what is staggering is how few LU has forced, and that has consistently fallen in recent years.
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By Purple Haize
#528181
JK37 wrote:For a change such as we've all seen to occur, there have to be underlying issues. Lose 9 players from the roster a year ago, and then win only 12 games...what gives?

I never saw the team this season. But all indications from my Big South friends are that LU has the talent to be good again very soon, it was just young/inexperienced this season. That can be true, and results still not match talent level.

While the volume of turnovers alone is not good, what is staggering is how few LU has forced, and that has consistently fallen in recent years.


I can learn to live with turn overs if you are up tempo. But if you are a methodical ball control team there is a premium of possessions. The lack of forcing turn overs can be mitigated by the rebounding differential that LU usually has.
By Dalegarz1
#528184 Purple Haize wrote: I can learn to live with turn overs if you are up tempo. But if you are a methodical ball control team there is a premium of possessions. The lack of forcing turn overs can be mitigated by the rebounding differential that LU usually has.

I totally agree-I have watched this team extensively the past two years and the number and nature of turnovers is totally unacceptable.
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By Purple Haize
#528188
Dalegarz1 wrote:Purple Haize wrote: I can learn to live with turn overs if you are up tempo. But if you are a methodical ball control team there is a premium of possessions. The lack of forcing turn overs can be mitigated by the rebounding differential that LU usually has.

I totally agree-I have watched this team extensively the past two years and the number and nature of turnovers is totally unacceptable.


I'm hoping one day to turn that type of knowledge into Upward Bound success Play Basketball :pbjtime :cheerleader
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By BJWilliams
#528189 A couple reasons we don' force many turnovers IMO:

1) We lack team speed and athleticism (something I think PH noted in a previous discussion on the topic...possibly coach JK37)
2) We don't play an aggressive enough style of defense
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By Purple Haize
#528191
BJWilliams wrote:A couple reasons we don' force many turnovers IMO:

1) We lack team speed and athleticism (something I think PH noted in a previous discussion on the topic...possibly coach JK37)
2) We don't play an aggressive enough style of defense


You can create a lot of TO's in a zone or without being athletic. But you hit the nail on the head (at least according to the Upward Handbook) when you said they don't play an aggressive style. You have to be aggressive and take chances to get steals
By flamehunter
#528192
thepostman wrote:Green isn't going anywhere. He has the ear of people that matter. He will go when he retires.

I think the only ear that really matters right now is IM. At least I hope that is why the management was willing to suffer ridicule for hiring him.
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By Cider Jim
#528193
Purple Haize wrote:I'm hoping one day to turn that type of knowledge into Upward Bound success Play Basketball :pbjtime :cheerleader

The clock is ticking! If you do't pull the trigger soon, ole BJ will get a coaching job before you do. :wink:
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By Cider Jim
#528195 After #7 seed UNCA won the girls Big South tournament against of #1 seed Radford, the UNCA coach said, "God had a hand in this."
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By Purple Haize
#528196
Cider Jim wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:I'm hoping one day to turn that type of knowledge into Upward Bound success Play Basketball :pbjtime :cheerleader

The clock is ticking! If you do't pull the trigger soon, ole BJ will get a coaching job before you do. :wink:


I'm hoping next season I get the call.....
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By Cider Jim
#528197 You might want to invest in a custom coach's stool, just in case you get the call. :oldhag
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By Purple Haize
#528198
Cider Jim wrote:You might want to invest in a custom coach's stool, just in case you get the call. :oldhag


You kid......but it's been discussed
By Chippy
#528199
Cider Jim wrote:After #7 seed UNCA won the girls Big South tournament against of #1 seed Radford, the UNCA coach said, "God had a hand in this."

Certainly had some miraculous wins this weekend. They won without 2 starters who missed the last half of the year. UNCA has a good system. They win with outhustling and out defending their opponent. My guess, they, Campblell and RU will be favorites next year since UNCA has a good coach and system (back to back titles) and RU and CU have their whole team coming back. We'll probably be 4th in preseason poll, again.
By ballcoach15
#528208 We need to recruit better. Our talent level has slowly declined, for the past several years. We are probably 3 players away ,

When Radford and UNC-A are playing in Vines Center for championship, it's not a good feeling.
By JK37
#528247 For teams within leagues at this level, one player can make the difference. Year in and out, programs are one blue-chipper away from being incontention, and one key injury from being out of it. The margin for error is usually that thin. For Liberty, it was the Feenstra/Frazee effect. Say what you will about the supporting cast - and it was solid - but without Katie and Megan, those teams aren't as good, not are the supporting cast of players as effective. To win titles in Low DI, a team needs one stud.

Who was the last one Liberty had? Not Buer. Devon Brown?
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By BJWilliams
#528251 Id venture Devon...and Green has a good chance to make some significant impact as well...maybe not Feenstra or Frazee level but certainly not minimal.
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By Purple Haize
#528255 I always thought Brown was over rated. Her stats were what they were but she was not as good as the numbers reflect IMO
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By jbock13
#529898
ballcoach15 wrote:We need to recruit better. Our talent level has slowly declined, for the past several years. We are probably 3 players away ,

When Radford and UNC-A are playing in Vines Center for championship, it's not a good feeling.


An excellent point. One should also note that scoring more points always helps too.
By oldflame
#532021 I remain cautiously optimistic. Quite frankly, despite playing in the BSC, it's pretty amazing that we were able to avoid a truly "down" year for so long. I like next year's recruiting class, and also think this past year's Freshmen have a lot of potential beyond the obvious standout in Green. I actually like that we will probably not have a target on our back for a change, and believe we can get back in the mix for a conference title again. If the FR PG Baker is everything advertised, she can be the difference maker in helping us cut back on turnovers and actually make opponents pay a price when they pressure us.
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By BJWilliams
#532032 That's certainly possible PH. I mean I'm not in the basketball offices or there lifting or practicing with the team (and Id venture there is almost no one on here with the exception of Damien or the ASoR boys who talks to them on even a semi-weekly basis) so I won't claim some insider knowledge, but you probably could venture a guess that there are some issues within the team dynamic
By Chippy
#532051 The folks who left were not productive and were never going to be. When productive folks leave that's when you think of chemistry, or something else that we may not be aware of, like last year with Sanders, Alexander, et al leaving, folks who were productive.
By oldflame
#532060
Purple Haize wrote:A lot of these moves might be because of chemistry.


That's such an ambiguous word. Apparently a while back we lost a couple of players because they had too much of it. :oops:

Looking at the 3 who are apparently not returning, the minutes tell the tale. They only played 137 altogether between them and most of those from Patton early in the year before she bricked her way out of the rotation going 4-25 from 3. These girls were not going to be on the floor anyway.
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By Purple Haize
#532063
oldflame wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:A lot of these moves might be because of chemistry.


That's such an ambiguous word. Apparently a while back we lost a couple of players because they had too much of it. :oops:

Looking at the 3 who are apparently not returning, the minutes tell the tale. They only played 137 altogether between them and most of those from Patton early in the year before she bricked her way out of the rotation going 4-25 from 3. These girls were not going to be on the floor anyway.


Yes a 'Don't date your team mate policy' is not always an bad thing
By Chippy
#532076
oldflame wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:A lot of these moves might be because of chemistry.


That's such an ambiguous word. Apparently a while back we lost a couple of players because they had too much of it. :oops:

Looking at the 3 who are apparently not returning, the minutes tell the tale. They only played 137 altogether between them and most of those from Patton early in the year before she bricked her way out of the rotation going 4-25 from 3. These girls were not going to be on the floor anyway.


Actually Patton is still on the roster and her limited minutes was more due to sustaining an ACL about 1/4 of the way into the season. Shooting 4 for 25 from 3 was not going to keep her out of the rotation. Green was incredibly patient with her and gave her playing time she really didn't earn for whatever reason. With the influx of a couple decent guards and the slew of returning guards I would think she will really have a hard time getting into the rotation this year.
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By Chainsaw777
#532222
oldflame wrote: If the FR PG Baker is everything advertised, she can be the difference maker in helping us cut back on turnovers and actually make opponents pay a price when they pressure us.

Ashtyn Baker just finished her senior high school season with back to back TN State Championships, TN State Tournament MVP awards and the TN Most Outstanding Player in the State (Miss Basketball) for her division (only five players/divisions in entire state.) She led her high school team to five state Final Fours (PG in 8th grade), three State championship games (won 2) with a record of 139-23. She scored just under 2,000 pts, 810 assists, 676 rebounds and 753 steals while only averaging 24 minutes per game her junior and senior year. She had tremendous coaching in both high school and AAU and played in a large number of high pressure playoff and championship games. She was raised in a winning culture that always put team before self and she elevates the players around her. Ashtyn brings exceptional handles and a strong work ethic to Liberty that will hopefully help correct the turnover issues. She will have to adjust to the pace and speed of D1 athletics, but just finishing 6th in the state in both the pentathlon and the 100m, she should close the gap quickly. Video available at her recruiting site, http://www.ashtynbaker.com
Last edited by Chainsaw777 on June 1st, 2017, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.