[Hold My Own]

I was watching the game just now (Hofestra Vs. UNCW) and a fight almost broke out and the announcer made the statement and there's one of the best officials in the game breaking up the fight Duke Edcil....I got a good chuckle and thought I'd share

I felt justified putting it in here considering how many times he's SUCKED in the vines

Little known fact is, the reason you wont see him at a lot of the major ACC games is b/c he's been graded out....you used to see him at EVERY Duke Vs. UNC and other huge games but as of the last few seasons his performance grades have really suffered...tidbits guys tidbits...take it or leave it

[fsn32]

I miss him... it added something to the games to watch his antics... I liked Natili too but I know a lot of people disagree with me. He was doing the UNC-Duke game with Hess and Valentine.

[Hold My Own]

You know, the last few seasons he was doing games for us he really stopped picking on us and did a pretty good job...i wonder if Vaden or someone had a little talk with him


as far as that pretty boy you were talkin about....THAT guy would drive me nuts! The moment I'd say anything he'll just turn around and stare at me...like Cassidy did when RD got T'd up in the first few minutes...I had people coming up to me asking "Why is that guy looking at you so much" I told them it's b/c it's one of the few times he's hearing the truth

[Brokeback Flamer]

Just a pet peeve, why does it seem that LU fans always feel they are being persecuted by the officials? I have never understod that. Is Duke on the tad arrogant side? Sure he is. Is Natili? Absolutely. But they are still very good officials. You may not like their demeanor, you may disagree with their calls, but the bottom line is they are officiating in the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)
THe reason the official, I did not know whether it was Duke or N you were talking about, is because you were probably spewing inance comments at them and they were astonished at your ability to say something about nothing. Over the back? No such foul. Reaching in? No such foul. I have always found it amazing some of the rules that people THINK they know, but don't actually know. The best way to evaluate an official is to look at a game objectively, which I find very hard when I see my favorite teams play.
As for the ACC shake up, that also had a lot to do with the change up top. Our own K. Hess was negatively affected by that, but hey that is politics and that happens everywhere. Also, there are evaluators at everygame who do nothing but watch and grade the officials. The coaches may have a say, but it is not the final word
As for RD, with all of his antics on the sideline, he should NEVER complain about any technical he recieves.

[D Edcil]

I was watching the game just now (Hofestra Vs. UNCW) and a fight almost broke out and the announcer made the statement and there's one of the best officials in the game breaking up the fight Duke Edcil....I got a good chuckle and thought I'd share

I felt justified putting it in here considering how many times he's SUCKED in the vines

Little known fact is, the reason you wont see him at a lot of the major ACC games is b/c he's been graded out....you used to see him at EVERY Duke Vs. UNC and other huge games but as of the last few seasons his performance grades have really suffered...tidbits guys tidbits...take it or leave it

Ha how dare you take my name in vain!!! I can only echo Brokeback's comments, although w/ that name I do not know how closely I want to be associated with that "cowboy".

Officials get about 98%+ calls correct on the floor. That is calls that are made and are not made. Now I know it is fun to yell at the officials, just ask M.H. (Mark's last name will remaing namesless!!) but that does not mean the louder you get the better the officiating is!! IMHO it is just "my" arrogant attitude that rubs people the wrong way

[Hold My Own]

Just a pet peeve, why does it seem that LU fans always feel they are being persecuted by the officials? I have never understod that. Is Duke on the tad arrogant side? Sure he is. Is Natili? Absolutely. But they are still very good officials. You may not like their demeanor, you may disagree with their calls, but the bottom line is they are officiating in the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)
THe reason the official, I did not know whether it was Duke or N you were talking about, is because you were probably spewing inance comments at them and they were astonished at your ability to say something about nothing. Over the back? No such foul. Reaching in? No such foul. I have always found it amazing some of the rules that people THINK they know, but don't actually know. The best way to evaluate an official is to look at a game objectively, which I find very hard when I see my favorite teams play.
As for the ACC shake up, that also had a lot to do with the change up top. Our own K. Hess was negatively affected by that, but hey that is politics and that happens everywhere. Also, there are evaluators at everygame who do nothing but watch and grade the officials. The coaches may have a say, but it is not the final word
As for RD, with all of his antics on the sideline, he should NEVER complain about any technical he recieves.

Thank you for your concern on whether or not I know what a foul is, the BEST way to evaluate officiating is to sit with the evaluator of those officials like I've done a number of times....and that is where my opinion of the matter comes from and it depends on what level you know him but he'll admit that some officials come in here clearly not liking LU, RD, JF so call it what you want but this came from the horses mouth not mine

[Hold My Own]

IMHO it is just "my" arrogant attitude that rubs people the wrong way

No its really the way you pull up your pants ever freakin second...it's about as annoying as Marshalls little hand twitch with his watch!!!

But I agree when you get the the level of a Hess or others at that level the calls are correct 98% but you cant be a honest person and say you believe the calls are 98% correct in the Vines....and I'm not even talkin about the ones that go against LU I'm talkin both ways....this year has been worse than others though I must say...it ranked right up there with "you" when "you" were in your prime of AWFUL calls

[LUconn]

It's not about making the correct calls all the time. It's about consistancy. If you're not gonna call a carry for dribbling to high one way, don't call it the other. If you're calling the fouling tight the entire game, don't loosen up at the end and vice versa. This is what makes a bad ref. Players can adjust to the way the refs are calling it but it's impossible to adjust to random calls.

[Ed Dantes]

Just a pet peeve, why does it seem that LU fans always feel they are being persecuted by the officials? I have never understod that. Is Duke on the tad arrogant side? Sure he is. Is Natili? Absolutely. But they are still very good officials. You may not like their demeanor, you may disagree with their calls, but the bottom line is they are officiating in the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)
THe reason the official, I did not know whether it was Duke or N you were talking about, is because you were probably spewing inance comments at them and they were astonished at your ability to say something about nothing. Over the back? No such foul. Reaching in? No such foul. I have always found it amazing some of the rules that people THINK they know, but don't actually know. The best way to evaluate an official is to look at a game objectively, which I find very hard when I see my favorite teams play.
As for the ACC shake up, that also had a lot to do with the change up top. Our own K. Hess was negatively affected by that, but hey that is politics and that happens everywhere. Also, there are evaluators at everygame who do nothing but watch and grade the officials. The coaches may have a say, but it is not the final word
As for RD, with all of his antics on the sideline, he should NEVER complain about any technical he recieves.

I once did the research about Dook Edsel, looking at the games he called for us over a five year span. It was stunning, really -- he only reffed home games for us, and it was something like in the games he reffed, we had a winning pct of .250; in the games he didn't it was like .650. And as for the games we won when he didn't ref, it was like an average margin of 10 points versus 1.5 in the games he did. It was uncanny.

[Brokeback Flamer]

Just a pet peeve, why does it seem that LU fans always feel they are being persecuted by the officials? I have never understod that. Is Duke on the tad arrogant side? Sure he is. Is Natili? Absolutely. But they are still very good officials. You may not like their demeanor, you may disagree with their calls, but the bottom line is they are officiating in the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)
THe reason the official, I did not know whether it was Duke or N you were talking about, is because you were probably spewing inance comments at them and they were astonished at your ability to say something about nothing. Over the back? No such foul. Reaching in? No such foul. I have always found it amazing some of the rules that people THINK they know, but don't actually know. The best way to evaluate an official is to look at a game objectively, which I find very hard when I see my favorite teams play.
As for the ACC shake up, that also had a lot to do with the change up top. Our own K. Hess was negatively affected by that, but hey that is politics and that happens everywhere. Also, there are evaluators at everygame who do nothing but watch and grade the officials. The coaches may have a say, but it is not the final word
As for RD, with all of his antics on the sideline, he should NEVER complain about any technical he recieves.

I once did the research about Dook Edsel, looking at the games he called for us over a five year span. It was stunning, really -- he only reffed home games for us, and it was something like in the games he reffed, we had a winning pct of .250; in the games he didn't it was like .650. And as for the games we won when he didn't ref, it was like an average margin of 10 points versus 1.5 in the games he did. It was uncanny.

I am sure if you are betting in Atlantic City, that research may come in hand. But actually, although I can't find it off hand, i think this was brought up before. It is not really a valid study to say "With Official X we only won this % of games as compared to w/out him". To make it statistically and truly relevant you have to take into account several factors. First and foremost the competition you are playing. If SCAR was officiating ten LU games and we were playing UCONN you could say that every game SCAR refs we lose. If you chart the consistency of the teams played then you have to look at location. You mentioned that most of the games were at LU. What about games elsewhere and what games did he call vs similar teams. Next you have to look at style. Each official has a unique style of things they let go and things they don't. What teams that play with similar styles to LU has Duke called and what was the outcome against similar opponents. Next you have the other two officials on the court. What level of experience do they have? If they are newer officials then they may need a little "help" if not then the area they watch is narrower.
The point is while it is a nice sound bite to say "When Duke calls a game we lose" that does not mean that Duke caused us to lose the game (Unless of course his last name is University)
Finally, as for the 98% correctness of the calls, I WOULD say that happens at the Vines Center.

[D Edcil]

Just a pet peeve, why does it seem that LU fans always feel they are being persecuted by the officials? I have never understod that. Is Duke on the tad arrogant side? Sure he is. Is Natili? Absolutely. But they are still very good officials. You may not like their demeanor, you may disagree with their calls, but the bottom line is they are officiating in the best basketball conference in America. (That would be the ACC not the Big South!)
THe reason the official, I did not know whether it was Duke or N you were talking about, is because you were probably spewing inance comments at them and they were astonished at your ability to say something about nothing. Over the back? No such foul. Reaching in? No such foul. I have always found it amazing some of the rules that people THINK they know, but don't actually know. The best way to evaluate an official is to look at a game objectively, which I find very hard when I see my favorite teams play.
As for the ACC shake up, that also had a lot to do with the change up top. Our own K. Hess was negatively affected by that, but hey that is politics and that happens everywhere. Also, there are evaluators at everygame who do nothing but watch and grade the officials. The coaches may have a say, but it is not the final word
As for RD, with all of his antics on the sideline, he should NEVER complain about any technical he recieves.

Thank you for your concern on whether or not I know what a foul is, the BEST way to evaluate officiating is to sit with the evaluator of those officials like I've done a number of times....and that is where my opinion of the matter comes from and it depends on what level you know him but he'll admit that some officials come in here clearly not liking LU, RD, JF so call it what you want but this came from the horses mouth not mine

Just trying to help!! Judging by the usual complaining in the Vines center, perhaps an elective could be given on basketball rules! As for the evaluator, they are people too. What one evaluator sees is different then another. Do officials come in here with a predispositon to dislike RD or JF, I am sure they do. Does it affect the way the call a game? Probably not for the most part. They may give RD a little less slack on his theatrics on the sidelines, but they will also try to be consistent. As LUConn said, THAT is the key to having a well officiated game. I am of the opinion that it is fun to yell at referee's but until you are at their level and do their job, it is probably not prudent to think you are better at what they do then they are.

[Hold My Own]

Finally, as for the 98% correctness of the calls, I WOULD say that happens at the Vines Center.

you had me until this part....now that I see you think that it really puts all of your opinions into question

you honestly can say that you think they make 98 out of 100 calls correct...LOL

[Brokeback Flamer]

Finally, as for the 98% correctness of the calls, I WOULD say that happens at the Vines Center.

you had me until this part....now that I see you think that it really puts all of your opinions into question

you honestly can say that you think they make 98 out of 100 calls correct...LOL

Do you have proof otherwise? I am just going by what the published statistics are for basketball officials. While I can not say with certainty that there are 98 out of 100 correct calls, statistics say that if not then it is pretty close to that number. If you have a different set of official numbers, I would be happy to take a look at them and re-formulate my outlook on Vines officiating

[TIMSCAR20]

Brokeback lets just say that I may be the worst official to ever ref a game. I used to do camps and some practices when I coached at LU and I was awful. But your point is taken about the statistical value of those Duke Edsall comparisons. It is far from scientific....I don't have a real problem with the officiating in the Vines but it does seem like other places you go, close calls go to the home team but in the Vines, close calls can go either way. I am not objective on the subject because I want Liberty to get all the calls but as an analyst I remain as impartial as I can. I am critical of the refs if they miss a call for the other team as well as Lib. But I usually try to say they are doing a good job when they are.

[Hold My Own]

I'm with you Scar, and Brokeback please dont think I'm one of these guys who would say "we lost that game b/c of officiating" b/c I could always point out a few possessions where if we would have succeeded then the outcome would be different....yes, some people do think Duke has cost us games....I really dont know where I stand on that...b/c there are a few games that come to mind where he played a key role in calls in the last 1-2 minutes of the ball game.....but regardless, you're nuts if you dont think that Cassidy didnt come into the Vines with the mindset of either "I'm going to show everyone (not just RD) who's boss really early in the game" or "RD whines about everything so I'm going to T him up early" or whatever you get the point....it was a known fact before the game even started that he was going to do something at some point to make his presence felt....I'm sorry I didnt think about this topic tonite b/c I just had dinner with the ACC evaluator tonight and I should have mentioned it to him...I may just drop him a line and try and get some numbers from him....I'd like to see and compare the numbers b/t the games those officials do in the ACC and then the BS, b/c it seems like at times they just coast through the game, blowin hot air whenever they please

[Brokeback Flamer]

SCAR - NOt that I don't think you are a tremendous person, and an outstanding humanitarian, but you did hit the nail on the head. It is always in those close calls that you feel your team gets hosed. Been there, know the feeling!!! As for you HMO - I re read my post to make sure that I did not say something I did not want to say. I agree, and stated that there are officials who come into games and give some coaches and some players a little less "room to maneuver" as it were. I would bet the mortgage to SCAR's house that is the case with RD, and IMHO it is absolutely deserved. Now, if RD knows that and acts up to get a T then that is on him. I would also bet you SCAR's FSN paycheck that if, when those officials were there, if he just coached his team and laid off the refs, he would go "T" free. As for "bang bang" plays, I am not sure there is enough time between the foul and the whistle to say "Hey, I hate JF's stance on NAFTA so this is going to be a holding call against LU", but that is just me. Also, am I supposed to be impressed that you had dinner with the ACC Comish? I had dinner with my family, and they are much more important and impressive

[Hold My Own]

man, you just need to relax...name dropping is one thing I wont do on here unless its saying that the person made a statement....the REASON I SAID THAT is b/c YOU made the statement that you would look at more numbers if I was to present them to you....get it now?????

theres not enough time in the day for me to start dropping names i'd never stop

[givemethemic]

Well, I have been holding off on this subject for the last few days and need to come to the aid of my fellow officials.... You guys are right about the new ACC commish of officials having alot to do with the new change, but let's remember this that some of the guys that have been at the top for so long are just getting old and there are some younger guys who are getting the chance to prove that they can be the TV and Karl Hess, I was at a camp where the commish spoke and said that there was going to be some changes, but some changes didn't just happen in the ACC though, if you look at the SEC, Big East, Colonial, and Big South you will see several changes... The point made about Vaden really has nothing to do with the ACC, he works with the NBA and yes he still lives in this area but really doesn't have much weight on the above mentioned conferences... Now sitting on press row, I get the pleasure to hear fans yell out some of the dumbest things that I have ever heard to the refs... The idea of a rules clinic could not be more dead on... I here the term "Over the back" like 20 times a game from the same people and quit honestly drives me crazy and the whole 3 seconds thing, I gurantee you that 3/4 of the fans couldn't explain what the meaning of 3 seconds is and when a count is broken and when it starts again... I really could go on this issue forever, but until you have put on the stripes, you really have no room to talk.... All I can is that officials are right 98% of the time and remember that they only get one look at the play and it is not in slow motion...

[Hold My Own]

The only comment I made about Vaden was "I wonder if someone like Vaden had a talk with him" which actually does apply regardless of who he's over seeing at the moment since you know as well as I do they all stay in a pretty tight circle Bill Booker, Vaden etc and stay in contact...heck Vaden is the one that knew about Dukes poor grades recently and he isnt "officially" connected with him...again no pun attended

[Rocketfan]

I was going to compliment you on a nice job last night but some of the things you said are frankly the darn dumbest things i have ever read.

First you are not a college official - so its it not possible for you to come to the aide of your fellow officials ( even if they do ref in your favorite conference) You haven't worn there stripes either so how does that give you room to talk in either direction on this issue? I just dont' understand that.

I sat on all the same presses rows in the Big South you did and i beg to differ on the 3 second deal. You make it seem like you have to be accepted into menza to understand that rule. Fans may yell out dumb things but that doesn't mean they are as stupid as you make them out to be.

98% is high for a few reasons: No matter if they are right or wrong how many officials make calls in a game when they are completly out of position (for one reason or another)

Just like in the NFL where you can call holding just about whenever you want, in basketball players hold/grab constantly underneath and off picks. If they called that all the time maybe it would be 98% but we all know they let that slide. Just because they don't call it, doesn't make it that right call. Officials are consistent one game and the next looks like the WWE on the low block. Like Ed Dantes said earlier with officials we used to keep stats and they shouldn't be totally lopsided each and every game.

Next:
Duke Edsil is not a good official - because honestly no "quality" official would engage in banter with a fan, as he did on several occasions with me. Thats flat out unprofessional and proves that i got in his head if he couldn't control himself. I watched him look at a opposing players carry the ball and give me a smile, then when i asked him why he doesnt' call traveling during a timeout out, he turned to me and said " You know we don't call that" and smiled again......what are the ramifications for officials if they can't keep there trap shut and locked around the whistle where it should be?

[bigsmooth]

im not a fan of the ole' dukester, but his name is spelled edsall. did GMTM start this thread???

[TIMSCAR20]

The member's name Duke edcil prompted the discussion I believe. Although I guessing GMTM is was not the 6th grade Spelling Bee Champ.

[Hold My Own]

--------This just in--------GiveMeTheMike has now changed his name to GiveMeTheWhistle.......-----Now back to the original Thread------

& he just T'd up Rocket.....wait, he just threw him out!

[Brokeback Flamer]

man, you just need to relax...name dropping is one thing I wont do on here unless its saying that the person made a statement....the REASON I SAID THAT is b/c YOU made the statement that you would look at more numbers if I was to present them to you....get it now?????

theres not enough time in the day for me to start dropping names i'd never stop

HMO - I am more relaxed than a moomoo!! Although I see names, I don't see any numbers yet.
RF - Let me jump to the defense of GMTM (I'm RIGHT BEHIND you all the way!!) If he officiates, then I think he can bring a much better perspective to the discussion then some who has not. Regardless what level he is on, so long as it is above LUREC, then he probably understands what it takes to do the job and can recognize the level of SKILL required to officiate at the highest level. The person puts the strips on, I think that gives him the cred to defend the officials.
For the most part, fans that yell at the officials ARE saying stupid things. GMTM is correct, most fans can't tell you what the three second rule states. Same for principle of verticality, over and back and "palming" If you can, then you can advance three spaces next to JF at center court.
I believe GMTM can tell you that officials ARE evaluated on what the DON'T call as much as do call. Consistency is the key as you said, but GAME consistency is probably more realistic than season. (Except for points of emphasis)
As for an official talking to a fan. SHOCKED I say SHOCKED!!! Please, a lot of refs talk to fans, you may not see it but it happens. Does it make them less professional? Who knows, I don't think so but then again I am corrupted by the Dark Side. (BTW what were you doing talking to hIM?) Did you ask him what the "wink" meant? I would probably like it but i bet you took it differently. He may have winked at you b/c he knew you thought it was a palm and it really wasn't!! Hmmm

[Rocketfan]

You just made my point for me - GMTM is a broadcaster not a referee so he wouldn't qualify above LUREC haha.

GMTM - If brokeback is " Behind you all the way" i would run for cover. Especially since its in all caps.

I was talking to Duke because he made horrid call after horrid call, but maybe your right, i should have just openly questioned his sexuality, instead of thinking he didn't have the brains to ref a girls middle school game effectively.