A Sea Of Red

I noticed that Oral Roberts is predicted to go to the NCAA tourney again. I'm unsure of their university, but I'm assuming it is similar in structure to Liberty (stricter rules, bible requirements, etc.) They seem to be similar in size to Liberty. They seem to have a great program that appears to always be on the bubble of the NCAA 65. I'm looking up their stats from the past few years, but it seems like they are in the NCAA tourney quite often. I'm going to look their conference up as well to see how tough it is, but for those a little more familiar with them and the teams they play, what, if any, differences are there between us?

The success that I percieve (I could have a wrong perception) Oral Roberts having is what I hope Coach D can do here at Liberty. Let me know your thoughts.

Oral Roberts hasn't been to the NCAAs in a long, long time. They went to the NIT last year and won 25 games (got bounced from the Mid-Con tourney during Oakland's amazing run to the dance).

They picked up two great players in Caleb Green and Ken Tutt and built around them. They're both juniors this year. I saw the Eagles when they came to play at NAU last season. One of Eddie Sutton's (Scott, I think) sons is the coach. They're also in a very strange league in terms of travel (it goes from Utah to Oklahoma to Louisiana to the Midwest).

ORU gets a lot of leftovers from the Texas and Oklahoma prep and JC ranks, kids that are just a notch below Big 12 level who want to stay closer to home. Tutt was deemed too small to play Big 12 ball, so that's why the big boys passed on him. I tell you, that kid can shoot though. And Green is real athletic for a four-man.

That's the comparison that I've always made too. People like to compare us to BYU and want us to be the BYU of Christian schools. The major problem with that is the huge difference between the cultures of Baptists and Mormans. So I think your ORU is a fair comparison. The separation between the 2 schools in terms of what could or does help them be successful to me is 2 things (this is without having done any research so take it with a grain of salt): 1. They've been around a long time so they've had more trial and error. 2. Conference affiliation. I'm also not familiar with their school restrictions.

Lang brings up a great point that I hadn't mentioned: 3. Location. Lots of good basketball in the midwest. But then again we have lots of good bball in the south.

I've noticed that in their conference (Mid-Continent Conference) teams like Oakland and Valaparaso that have been the past few years, so they probably haven't made it as often as I thought. They always seem to be among the top in their conference and seem to win 20 games each year.

There conference is definitely WEIRD. Oakland University??? Could some of these teams be any farther apart?? Southern Utah and Chicago State??

Oral Roberts does have a GREAT program IMO though. Of course if you're not making the NCAA tourney, it really doesn't matter.

The Mid-Con became a home for vagabond schools with no affiliation. Southern Utah was in the old America West Conference with Sac State, Northridge and someone else, but when Sac and Northridge joined the Big Sky, SUU was out of luck. Chicago State was part of that old East Coast Conference with Hofstra, Towson, CCSU and others. Oral Roberts moved from Division I to NAIA back to Division I and found a home there in the mid-90s. Centenary used to be in the old Trans America Athletic Conference with Ga. State, Coll of Charleston and others but went independent before jumping into the Mid-Con, presumably because there was no place else to go. Oakland is a fairly new DI program in Michigan.

Southern Utah is interesting. Everything says they should be in the Big Sky, but certain schools in that league (Montana and Weber State in particular) will never let it happen. They always claim that SUU isn't strong enough academically, which I find laughable considering Weber State is a barely competent school academically.

BTW--Oakland University is actually in a suburb of Detroit.

I am not too familiar with ORU, but I think we should be able to compare ourselves on an athletic level to teams in this area like George Mason, ODU, VCU, Richmond, etc. There should be no reason that in 20 years or so (if not sooner) we should be competing at this level in all sports. Some of our sports have already reached this level- WBB, track and field. We all know the two money sports though are football and MBB.

I know we have a spiritual basis unlike these schools, but that should just make us be able to draw even more athletes from a national, even worldwide, level.

To me, the most amazing stat is the one Chris mentioned in this morning's paper...

The Flames have just one winning season in the last nine years.

To me, the most amazing stat is the one Chris mentioned in this morning's paper...

The Flames have just one winning season in the last nine years.

I was very suprised by this fact as well, but if you look at the season's at an individual case it becomes not so bad.

Here is a link of our schedule/results from the past couple years:

http://libertyflames.com/mbball/schedul ... tion1=View

As you can see, under Dunton we have played a very challenging non-conference schedule. In '04-'05, we finished 13-15, but were 11-5 in the conference. We lost our one game in the BSC tourny and were 2-9 agaisnt the likes of Seton Hall, Maryland, NC State, Old Dominion, Miami(OH), UNCG, etc. In '02-'03, we finished 14-15, but were 8-6 in the conference including 1-1 in the tourny. We were 6-9 against the likes of Iowa, Clemson, Virginia, McNeese St.

I was unable to find data of the previous 5 seasons, but out of the last 4 it is very misleading to say we had only one winning season. If we were playing lower D1 schools, and below we would have had winning seasons probably all 4 of those years. I credit Coach Dunton for challenging the guys in the non-conference slate because at this level it really doesn't matter what your overall record is. All that matters is if you win your conference tourny.

A.G. wrote:To me, the most amazing stat is the one Chris mentioned in this morning's paper...

The Flames have just one winning season in the last nine years.

But right now, I don't think this matters to our short term goals. (This is one area where I disagree with Dunton and his "5 year plan") We have to look at our conference record. Until we're in a conference that can get an at large bid, Big South stepping up or us moving on, OOC play is meaningless.

Chris, you might be able to help me out here. "Back in my day......." ORU had a very good and competitive DI men's basketball program. (To go along with their Singing Teams...sounds familiar no?) At any rate, they were on the brink of some SERIOUS NCAA violations. So to avoid those they stepped back into the NAIA ranks for years. It was, I think, about less the 10 years ago they "came back" to DI status. Further, if I remeber correctly, they fired the DI coach (name escapes me) who had the violations, hired another coach for the NAIA run, and re - hired the first coach when they came back to DI status. Now they have one of the Sutton boys. Hope they hold to that "No Alcohol" policy!! (OUCH!)

OOC play is meaningless

I definately disagree with that quote. The only reason our womens programs have gotten the seedings in the tournament that they got was due to out of conference wins against major conference teams, beating some good mid-majors, and competitive losses with nationally ranked teams. If they relied simply on the BSC or other teams at that level of play we LU would always get the lowest seed out there since the BSC carries little weight due to strength of schedule. For instance the first year they got higher than a 16th seed was due to the win at Kentucky (A fourth seed), some respectable performances vs major conference teams, and a highly upgraded schedule. On the other hand our undefeated team had to go in as a 16 seed to face Tennessee in the first round with little chance of being competitive. Of course our men's teams have never got to that level with the exception of Jeff Meyer's last team which could have got a 14 seed if they had won the BSC championship game but it didn't happen.
Also how we can compete with the ODU's , JMU's, George Masons, and the Richmonds carries quit a bit of weight when trying to get that local attention since that is what most fans outside of LU compair us to. The same thing applied when we play Tech , UVA, and teams in power conferences.

I closing I would think that OOC performance would actually mean more than the BSC. Yes, winning the BSC gets us to the Big Dance but those "quality" wins or performances determine the seeding.

OOC is the ONLY thing that will help us be "competetive and respectable." For LU to get a top 100 RPI they will have to play a UNC-A type schedule year in and year out--and learn to win 1-2 those games. LU cannot ever again justify losing to the Longwoods of the world.

In other words we need to get out of that "Big South way of thinking" and start to look at the whole picture. Need to get our minds out of the gutter.

One thing you can never bag on Coach Dunton about is padding our OOC schedule with stiffs. We've been fairly agressive in accepting tough pre-league contests. Now its another story when it comes to picking up the victories against the Kentuckys & Arizonas of the world.

Sly Fox wrote:One thing you can never bag on Coach Dunton about is padding our OOC schedule with stiffs. We've been fairly agressive in accepting tough pre-league contests. Now its another story when it comes to picking up the victories against the Kentuckys & Arizonas of the world.

Well, I am new to the board and there is just so much stuff here, I just wish I had known about this site earlier. So let me make my maiden post a reply to this post.
You most certainly can "bag on Coach Dunton" with regards to the OOC schedule. For starters, he is the one who makes the schedule (as was mentioned earlier) Secondly, lets be serious, the major reason he schedules the Kentucky's, Arizona's et. al is because of the money they pay to play us. Every school at our level (and some higher) play "Money Games" and that is why we play them. When you look at the non money games against such power houses as Cincinnati........................Christian, the powerful 3-22 Hornets of L'burg College and two against Longwood, in only its second "full" year of DI play, the schedule looks mighty suspect. Now on the flip side of that coin, we probably paid those teams some moola so that we could notch a few victories, and looking at our record, it was money well spent!!!

I thought the OOC schedules in Dunton's 2n and 3rd year were great. Last year's schedule was like taking a step back. I can't say too much for the results but the scheduling aspect was fine.

Welcome to the board, Brokeback.

No one is denying that the staff is responsible for the schedule. All I am saying is that it was strong enough non-conference. In fact, based on how things went down it was probably too agressive. But that is hindsight. I've always taken the position that you won't truly show progress by scheduling a bunch of teams you know you can beat as opposed to taking lumps against the big boys. But its a fine line between bruising the collective confidence level of the squad.

Sly Fox wrote:Welcome to the board, Brokeback.

No one is denying that the staff is responsible for the schedule. All I am saying is that it was strong enough non-conference. In fact, based on how things went down it was probably too agressive. But that is hindsight. I've always taken the position that you won't truly show progress by scheduling a bunch of teams you know you can beat as opposed to taking lumps against the big boys. But its a fine line between bruising the collective confidence level of the squad.

I am not sure of your point. On one hand you say the schedule is brutal, yet you acknowledge that we had some SERIOUS cup cakes. Cup cakes are a good thing in moderation, my waistline can attest! But we had two LLLOOOWWW non D1's on our schedule and a 2nd year DI program (that we split with!) I also see know "nobility" in scheduling the UK's etc, but I do see $$ and that is always good. Overall, scheduling was poor, but that is not a big issue to deep fry RD over