If roundball is your blood, this is the place to discuss the Flames as they move into the Ritchie McKay era for the 2nd time.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By LUDad
Posts
#547505
I realize only some or even none of the rules will be implemented. However, two of them are designed to open up the game and promote more drives to the basket (first two below). I could see issues with the first one having an adverse impact on our packline by having to extend out further to protect the 3 point. However, I think that the second rule has both pros and cons concerning the packline. Thoughts?

Secondly, could UVA's huge success with the packline be a factor in testing these rules?

• The 3-point line will be extended by approximately 1 foot 8 inches to the same distance used by FIBA for international competition (22 feet 1.75 inches).
• The free throw lane will be widened from 12 feet to 16 feet, consistent with the width used by the NBA.
• The games will be divided into four 10-minute quarters as opposed to two 20-minute halves. Teams will shoot two free throws beginning with the fifth foul of each quarter.
• The shot clock will reset to 20 seconds after an offensive rebound instead of the full 30 seconds.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547508
LUDad wrote:I realize only some or even none of the rules will be implemented. However, two of them are designed to open up the game and promote more drives to the basket (first two below). I could see issues with the first one having an adverse impact on our packline by having to extend out further to protect the 3 point. However, I think that the second rule has both pros and cons concerning the packline. Thoughts?

Secondly, could UVA's huge success with the packline be a factor in testing these rules?

• The 3-point line will be extended by approximately 1 foot 8 inches to the same distance used by FIBA for international competition (22 feet 1.75 inches).
• The free throw lane will be widened from 12 feet to 16 feet, consistent with the width used by the NBA.
• The games will be divided into four 10-minute quarters as opposed to two 20-minute halves. Teams will shoot two free throws beginning with the fifth foul of each quarter.
• The shot clock will reset to 20 seconds after an offensive rebound instead of the full 30 seconds.
Regarding the first one, in the games where opponents lit it up from 3 against us (Campbell, first High Point game and and first UNCA game) they were shooting from that range and beyond anyway. I don't think it will be a problem. I think the last one could work in our favor. We usually only send Scottie to the offensive boards, and he usually gets a shot up off the rebound. When our opponents get an offensive rebound, of course some of them are putbacks as well, but if they have to kick it out, 20 seconds is not much time against the pack line.
By ballcoach15
Registration Days Posts
#547529
I like the 20 second shot clock deal.


For the basketball gurus, why do many teams put very little focus on offensive rebounding ? Most games I watch, soon as a player shoots ball, his teammates release and head down court, instead of getting crashing the boards.
What little basketball coaching I have done, I always dropped a guard back, and had other 4 players go after rebound.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547531
ballcoach15 wrote:I like the 20 second shot clock deal.


For the basketball gurus, why do many teams put very little focus on offensive rebounding ? Most games I watch, soon as a player shoots ball, his teammates release and head down court, instead of getting crashing the boards.
What little basketball coaching I have done, I always dropped a guard back, and had other 4 players go after rebound.
Then you should love Michigan St. Izzo sends 4 or 5 to the offensive boards or at least that’s what he wants. Sometimes what a coach wants and players give are 2 different things :D

But to your point, it’s just a philosophy and I think you will see more teams do that. The main reason is to stop a fast break. If you have 4 or 5 players back on D, by the time the other team rebounds and outlets you are already just about set up in your defense. Which for a team like UVA is what they are built upon. Secondly, it avoids the potential of rebounding fouls which can really effect the game plan. Chaney back in his Temple days did not even put rebounders on the line if his guys were shooting FT’s.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547543
ballcoach15 wrote:For the record, I do not like "half court" defenses or offenses.
:dontgetit You kinda sorta need those
By flamehunter
Registration Days Posts
#547548
Purple Haize wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:For the record, I do not like "half court" defenses or offenses.
:dontgetit You kinda sorta need those
Is he advocating getting rid of the 10 second line? That would result in full-court offense and defense.
By ballcoach15
Registration Days Posts
#547555
You do need those in certain situations. But I like full court pressure defenses. Don't allow opponents time to set up their offense. On offense, I like up tempo. Get a layup or shoot a lot of 3s.

As for 10 second line, keep it.
By ballcoach15
Registration Days Posts
#547559
I wish the TV cameras would experiment with not showing players on the bench after every basket made. Almost reminds me of softball on ESPN where they show players in dugout or parents in the bleachers more than players on field.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547563
ballcoach15 wrote:You do need those in certain situations. But I like full court pressure defenses. Don't allow opponents time to set up their offense. On offense, I like up tempo. Get a layup or shoot a lot of 3s.

As for 10 second line, keep it.
News flash ballcoach. What you like or not like matters very little to anyone here. At least this time you made an attempt to explain why for a change.

Personally, I like WINNING! No explaination needed for that. Name the last team that won a national championship with full court pressure and "up tempo". I tried for a while and best I know the only one in the last 10 years was your favorite team Louisville. At our level, Duggar Baucum was probably the biggest proponent of the style. Fun to watch and impressive stats, but zero championships in many, many years, and now even he is backing off the pressure defense at Citadel. Radford pressed a lot when Jones first came from VCU, and it got him nowhere, so now they play quite a bit like we do actually.

Here is what is working in college basketball. Play solid half court defense and force the opponent to use a lot of clock and take a contested jump shot. Crash the defensive boards like demons and limit them to one shot. When you get the defensive board, take the fast break if it is there, but don't force it. Then run your offense and try to get a layup/dunk, or a good look from 3. On a missed shot send just one rebounder (your best) to the offensive boards, and get everyone else back to prevent easy baskets off the fast break. Repeat. I'm sure you don't like it, but if you like winning, you should learn to.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547568
olldflame wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:You do need those in certain situations. But I like full court pressure defenses. Don't allow opponents time to set up their offense. On offense, I like up tempo. Get a layup or shoot a lot of 3s.

As for 10 second line, keep it.
News flash ballcoach. What you like or not like matters very little to anyone here. At least this time you made an attempt to explain why for a change.

Personally, I like WINNING! No explaination needed for that. Name the last team that won a national championship with full court pressure and "up tempo". I tried for a while and best I know the only one in the last 10 years was your favorite team Louisville. At our level, Duggar Baucum was probably the biggest proponent of the style. Fun to watch and impressive stats, but zero championships in many, many years, and now even he is backing off the pressure defense at Citadel. Radford pressed a lot when Jones first came from VCU, and it got him nowhere, so now they play quite a bit like we do actually.

Here is what is working in college basketball. Play solid half court defense and force the opponent to use a lot of clock and take a contested jump shot. Crash the defensive boards like demons and limit them to one shot. When you get the defensive board, take the fast break if it is there, but don't force it. Then run your offense and try to get a layup/dunk, or a good look from 3. On a missed shot send just one rebounder (your best) to the offensive boards, and get everyone else back to prevent easy baskets off the fast break. Repeat. I'm sure you don't like it, but if you like winning, you should learn to.
You should change your name to ‘MiddleAgeFlame’. 1994 Arkansas Razorbacks 40 Minutes Of Hell.
VCU does play something similar to that as does WVU. However, as WVU makes PAINFULLY CLEAR you can’t run pressure defense if you can’t score in the half court.
It’s always easier to slow a team down then to speed them up which makes running up tempo a challenge.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547572
Purple Haize wrote:
olldflame wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:You do need those in certain situations. But I like full court pressure defenses. Don't allow opponents time to set up their offense. On offense, I like up tempo. Get a layup or shoot a lot of 3s.

As for 10 second line, keep it.
News flash ballcoach. What you like or not like matters very little to anyone here. At least this time you made an attempt to explain why for a change.

Personally, I like WINNING! No explaination needed for that. Name the last team that won a national championship with full court pressure and "up tempo". I tried for a while and best I know the only one in the last 10 years was your favorite team Louisville. At our level, Duggar Baucum was probably the biggest proponent of the style. Fun to watch and impressive stats, but zero championships in many, many years, and now even he is backing off the pressure defense at Citadel. Radford pressed a lot when Jones first came from VCU, and it got him nowhere, so now they play quite a bit like we do actually.

Here is what is working in college basketball. Play solid half court defense and force the opponent to use a lot of clock and take a contested jump shot. Crash the defensive boards like demons and limit them to one shot. When you get the defensive board, take the fast break if it is there, but don't force it. Then run your offense and try to get a layup/dunk, or a good look from 3. On a missed shot send just one rebounder (your best) to the offensive boards, and get everyone else back to prevent easy baskets off the fast break. Repeat. I'm sure you don't like it, but if you like winning, you should learn to.
You should change your name to ‘MiddleAgeFlame’. 1994 Arkansas Razorbacks 40 Minutes Of Hell.
VCU does play something similar to that as does WVU. However, as WVU makes PAINFULLY CLEAR you can’t run pressure defense if you can’t score in the half court.
It’s always easier to slow a team down then to speed them up which makes running up tempo a challenge.
I was 42 years old in 1994. You are right that the Hogs were the last team that did it full bore all game long to win it. Louisville did press a good bit. VCU had a nice run with 'havoc", but I think even Chaka is backing off of it at Texas.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547581
ballcoach15 wrote:I loved watching Duggar's teams when he was at VMI
You are not alone. Fun to watch, fun to play.

Now let's look at his record.

221-242 lifetime overall

151-159 at VMI. 75-91 in BSC games. No championships, one final.

33-64 at Citadel. 12-42 in Southern Conference games. Needless to say, no championships.

In fairness, his entire D1 career has been spent at military academies, and that is a tough sell to recruits. Playing this fun system was pretty much how he tried to sell it.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547585
olldflame wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:I loved watching Duggar's teams when he was at VMI
You are not alone. Fun to watch, fun to play.

Now let's look at his record.

221-242 lifetime overall

151-159 at VMI. 75-91 in BSC games. No championships, one final.

33-64 at Citadel. 12-42 in Southern Conference games. Needless to say, no championships.

In fairness, his entire D1 career has been spent at military academies, and that is a tough sell to recruits. Playing this fun system was pretty much how he tried to sell it.
The conditioning needed to run that system is off the charts. Grinnell College in Iowa ran that system for years and still might. The most famous being Loyola Marymount with Bo Kimble Hank Gathers and Jeff Fryer. Paul Westhead was never able to duplicate their run at any level.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547589
Purple Haize wrote:
olldflame wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:I loved watching Duggar's teams when he was at VMI
You are not alone. Fun to watch, fun to play.

Now let's look at his record.

221-242 lifetime overall

151-159 at VMI. 75-91 in BSC games. No championships, one final.

33-64 at Citadel. 12-42 in Southern Conference games. Needless to say, no championships.

In fairness, his entire D1 career has been spent at military academies, and that is a tough sell to recruits. Playing this fun system was pretty much how he tried to sell it.
The conditioning needed to run that system is off the charts. Grinnell College in Iowa ran that system for years and still might. The most famous being Loyola Marymount with Bo Kimble Hank Gathers and Jeff Fryer. Paul Westhead was never able to duplicate their run at any level.
No doubt about the need to be in ridiculously good shape. Pretty sure Grinnell is still doing what they do, which quite frankly is on a whole different level from anyone else. Westhead at Loyola Marymount was the closest D1 ever saw to that craziness.
By ballcoach15
Registration Days Posts
#547591
Never heard anyone say Duggar's style was boring. Can't say the same about the guy in Charlottesville. Now granted the W-L is different.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547592
ballcoach15 wrote:Never heard anyone say Duggar's style was boring. Can't say the same about the guy in Charlottesville. Now granted the W-L is different.
Something tells me Duggar is not waiting by the phone for a call from the Virginia people telling him they are firing Tony Bennett and want to hire him. :roll:

So let me get it straight:

Not boring me like. :pbjtime

Boring me not like. :boring

Winning an afterthought. Not really care that much. :|
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547593
olldflame wrote:
ballcoach15 wrote:Never heard anyone say Duggar's style was boring. Can't say the same about the guy in Charlottesville. Now granted the W-L is different.
Something tells me Duggar is not waiting by the phone for a call from the Virginia people telling him they are firing Tony Bennett and want to hire him. :roll:

So let me get it straight:

Not boring me like. :pbjtime

Boring me not like. :boring

Winning an afterthought. Not really care that much. :|
See I don’t find UVA’s style boring. Boring was the Dean Smith 4 Corners. With the shot clock you know UVA has to shoot and you know their opponent has to shoot. So you know something has to happen.
Grinnell runs/ran the LMU system. There is no denying that when you look at the rules of the system it is fun to play in, I mean who WOULDNT want to be the guy who has to shoot no matter where they touch the ball once passed half court? It is even a successful thing in small bursts. But as College seasons have gotten longer and longer it’s becoming less and less viable
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547623
JK37 wrote:Next year’s season is longest ever. Starting earlier.
Yeah it’s getting absolutely crazy
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By g-webb1994
Registration Days Posts
#547629
Purple Haize wrote:
The conditioning needed to run that system is off the charts. Grinnell College in Iowa ran that system for years and still might. The most famous being Loyola Marymount with Bo Kimble Hank Gathers and Jeff Fryer. Paul Westhead was never able to duplicate their run at any level.
Kimble hitting those foul shots left handed nothing but net in the 1990 tournament still brings chills.

As for the experimental rules, yes to the wider lane and longer 3, and a big NO to messing with the shot clock again and quarter play. Half play makes the collegiate game unique compared to that NBA garbage. Keep it that way.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#547640
Anyone who thinks the NBA is garbage compared to college basketball simply isn’t watching the NBA. It’s such a better product than college basketball.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#547641
Jonathan Carone wrote:Anyone who thinks the NBA is garbage compared to college basketball simply isn’t watching the NBA. It’s such a better product than college basketball.
IMO it’s not a decision between what is better or what is worse. They really are 2 Distinctive games. I’ve still watched the occasional NBA game but it really doesn’t it interest me as much as the College Game.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#547642
Jonathan Carone wrote:Anyone who thinks the NBA is garbage compared to college basketball simply isn’t watching the NBA. It’s such a better product than college basketball.
I don't know his opinion overall on the NBA, but I believe G-Webb1994's garbage reference was specifically about the quarters system, indicating he preferred the current 20 minute halves in college MBB because it is "unique". Indeed it is, which IMHO is possibly a reason to change it. With college WBB now going with 4 quarters along with HS, NBA and FIBA, the college men's game is the only holdout. It really doesn't affect the game on the court a lick, so it doesn't matter much. Depends if you prefer "unique" or "consistent" I guess.
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