If roundball is your blood, this is the place to discuss the Flames as they move into the Ritchie McKay era for the 2nd time.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458773
I started this thread to continue the wildly off-topic discussion we were having in the Eron Gordon thread.

OK Governor, we get it. You deal in cold, hard facts while most of the rest of us only speculate. So if the fairly specific information you gave us about Stavian Allen's academic situation is fact, then it must have come from a source. That stuff is confidential, so unless it came from Stavian or his mom I would think you just might get someone in trouble putting it on the internet. If it DID come from them (which I doubt), I suspect they wouldn't be too happy about it. Bottom line though is you jumped on something that was merely a speculative rabbit trail I had gone off on in getting to my point, which was that our staffs handling of the recruiting of Allen and the follow up recruitment of Andoh is cause to assess credit, not blame. If we ultimately sign Allen again in 2 years, we will have pulled of something that could be the stuff of recruiting legends; the "reverse double JUCO."

"When you are more involved in your player's lives, you will be able to pick up on some things that are going on, and head them off first".

Where do I start with that one. Oh heck, let's run with it.

It's Friday afternoon, and DL has called coach Mance in to his office. "Omar, forget about your plans for the weekend, we have an emergency here. I think we may be losing Bonds (pause) Braxton Bonds. I've been wondering if we have been involved enough in Braxton's life, so I've been doing some checking on things. Did you know he posted on his twitter that his girlfriend Grace farts every time you tickle her? This is serious Omar. I'm depending on you." (Hands Mance an envelope) "Here are your plane tickets and hotel reservations. Your mission (should you decide to accept it) is to find out what is going on in that kids head. I want you to get so close to him that you'll know if HE farts when you tickle him. I want you to spend all day with him and tuck him into bed at night. I have to warn you though that you may have to play that one by ear. I talked to his mom, and she's not exactly on board with it. I don't have to tell you how important this kid is to our program Omar. Enjoy Nashville. There are Opry tickets for you and Braxton in the envelope."

He was almost 500 miles away. I guess with your sources Gov you must know exactly how much and what type of contact our staff had with him, or you wouldn't be able to say we could have done "more" (not that it would have made any difference). Once he arrived on campus, the workouts he participated in with the other players were strictly player run with no coaches present by NCAA rules. He certainly could have talked to our staff if he was homesick and wanted some counsel, but apparently he did not. Guess somebody should have made the trip to the dorm to tuck him in at night.
By TheGovernor
Registration Days Posts
#458779
Wow. There is a lot of stuff there. I commend you. Seriously. I sensed some sarcasm in a good bit of your post, so I want you to understand that everything I am saying in this post lacks sarcasm and I couldnt be more serious.

I dont want you to take it as disrespectful that I am not replying with a lot of information. I first want to first clarify some things. I think you understood them, but I want to make sure the point gets across.

1. Allen: I never said that it WASNT SAT/ACT, I even said it very well could be that as well, but what I said is also true. We very well could get him back in 2 years, I dont see why not if we want him.

2. Bonds: I think you might be misunderstanding my statement of being involved in their lives. I also want to make it clear that what you "ran with" is not what I am saying at all. I think you are comparing Bonds to what we did to try to get Curry back...

I am not going as far as you are with the interaction within the coaching staff, but don't you find it a bit ridiculous that our staff has no idea that a kid is considering leaving? We arent talking about a kid that has been there 2 years, we arent talking about a kid that hasnt shown up yet. Do you really find it that difficult for a coach to have a pulse on the best recruit since Seth Curry? Especially with his player turnover rate? Do you see a problem with the fact that NO ONE has ANY idea that he is considering leaving until he is packing his things? I don't think it requires someone tucking him in at night, but you have a very capable staff. I (unlike some others) think that for a kid like Bonds, Liberty has much more to offer him than Tennessee could. I mean, we have a message board full of people that understand why you wouldnt take the trip to Tennessee so I would hope that this capable staff would be able to convince him otherwise. And Again, I am not saying that it could have prevented anything.

Now, since you want to assign blame... and be a DL apologist (which I have 0 problem with. Difficult job to have. Everyone is a Monday Morning QB)... Let me ask a few questions that no one around here wants to hear: Why did he leave? And what I mean by that is What could make him upset? No one is talking about playing time yet. No one is in "team" workouts yet. He is a Christian. There are no students on campus. We have GRADE A facilities. Havent even interacted with a good amount of the team for an extended period of time yet. Many will answer this question and say "UT Tampering" or "Homesick" or "Girlfriend"... All of this could be true, but what happens when you mix in the fact that everyone was caught off guard by this, and I think we all agree that if Dale had any idea or wanted to fight for him, things could be much more difficult since he was in an LOI. So IN ANY OTHER SITUATION when a kid has signed his LOI, is on campus, is in classes, is your best recruit in years, then up and leaves to go to another DI school without any hint that it would actually happen, Who is to blame?

Let's run with this:
Greg Marshall signs the ESPN #3 SF in the 2013 recruiting class for Wichita. Player has taken 2+ visits to campus, signs early, gets on campus early, is in classes for a week, then walks into Marshall's office and says "Im going to Kansas". A week later has been offered a position by Self. MOST PEOPLE are going to say "How did Marshall lose that guy?" or "How did Marshall not know he was going to Kansas? I mean, no one turns around in a week and has decided on going to another school." SOME PEOPLE will say "kid didnt know what he wanted" or "kid wants to play in the Big12". The difference is that Marshall would be to blame for letting him slip away because if Marshall knew he was leaving and was fighting for his kid, it would be very obvious to that young man that his best opportunities are going to be at WS than at Kansas because he will be sitting behind the potential #1 pick in the NBA draft and it is going to be VERY DIFFICULT ;) for him to be eligible at another school.

Most people around here are doing the opposite. Rather than requiring more from the school that we root for when they lose 20 games the same we do when they win 20 games, we are just talking about how he might get to play this year but he is only there for blackwell or this or that. Most people are being a DL apologist, when we should require more. Most people are talking about the kid's integrity instead of saying "HOW DIDNT ANYONE KNOW THIS WAS COMING?" or better "HOW DO YOU LET THIS KID GET AWAY? HE WAS UNDER YOUR NOSE. YOU GOT HIM TO COMMIT FROM 8 HOURS AWAY BUT CANT MAKE HIM HONOR HIS COMMITMENT WHEN HE IS 8 MINUTES AWAY"

Rather than looking at every individual situation as it's own situation, at some point you have to start connecting the dots. How many kids have to leave? How many players have to sit the bench when showing that they can play? How many people can you treat poorly before it blows up in your face? Not all of the kids are bad apples, name another DI team that has this much turnover. Last year, Liberty fans went into the year with a Championship mindset. Championship or bust. Marshall doesnt get as many looks, Roberts sits the bench, Gielo stops getting the ball after being lights out for a half, JC is afforded the opportunity to consistently make the wrong play and is never corrected. 20 more losses. Let's apologize some more. The last person that needs your apologies is the guy making $300,000+ a year to produce mediocrity. How many years before you stop blaming previous situations or the "mess" you were left with, Obama?
User avatar
By jinxy
Registration Days Posts
#458780
I have no way of proving this and it could be totally wrong but It sounds like once he signed his loi we stopped recruiting him. On the surface that sounds normal but with the difficulties the program has had in terms of performance and defections you would think we would never really stop recruiting a player we really wanted. I dont think this program can take anything for granted. I think the culpability is probably 60/40 bonds/staff maybe slightly higher. Maybe if we had been more successful we wouldnt have to do that but this program has been a grease fire the entire time since ive followed in 03 with the exception of currys year, the last month of the 03-04 season and the miracle run through the tourney. To me its the most underperforming endeavor at liberty compartively (not just sports).
By TheGovernor
Registration Days Posts
#458782
jinxy wrote:I have no way of proving this and it could be totally wrong but It sounds like once he signed his loi we stopped recruiting him. On the surface that sounds normal but with the difficulties the program has had in terms of performance and defections you would think we would never really stop recruiting a player we really wanted.
Well said.
User avatar
By bluejacket
Registration Days Posts
#458790
:clapping Well said Gov. I am sick of people apologizing for our pathetic showings and not calling out people when it comes to our mediocrity, particularly when it comes to men's basketball. You would think that after Curry came to Liberty here people would have higher standards for the team and calling for accountability.

I've had the pleasure to meet Coach Layer and he is a fine man. Unfortunately, he's proven to be incapable of turning it around.
User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#458798
lynchburgwildcats wrote:Wait, someone posted academic information? That's illegal.
No one posted academic information, just speculation as to why a certain player did not qualify.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458840
jcmanson wrote:
lynchburgwildcats wrote:Wait, someone posted academic information? That's illegal.
No one posted academic information, just speculation as to why a certain player did not qualify.
I speculated. The Governor insists he doesn't do that. He gave some fairly specific information about the recruit not getting passing grades he needed in his final courses. Maybe not specific enough to be illegal, but stepping pretty close to the line.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#458869
olldflame wrote:
jcmanson wrote:
lynchburgwildcats wrote:Wait, someone posted academic information? That's illegal.
No one posted academic information, just speculation as to why a certain player did not qualify.
I speculated. The Governor insists he doesn't do that. He gave some fairly specific information about the recruit not getting passing grades he needed in his final courses. Maybe not specific enough to be illegal, but stepping pretty close to the line.
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