If roundball is your blood, this is the place to discuss the Flames as they move into the Ritchie McKay era for the 2nd time.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458663
bluejacket wrote:The departures of Bonds and Allen are on this staff, regardless of how long the coaches have been here.

Ah, yes. The prime directive of message boards. "Someone is always to blame, and that blame must be assigned". We have even had people here blame our coaches when players were injured.

Regarding Bonds and Allen, first of all you can't depart if you never arrived, so only Bonds is a departure. I personally have no problem with how the recruiting of Stavian Allen was handled. Yes, we offered and signed a player who had not qualified. Is that an irresponsible act by our staff? I would say it would be under the following circumstances:

1) There was another player of fairly similar talent who wanted to come to LU and would have signed with us last fall, could play the same position(s) and had qualified. I followed our recruiting pretty closely last fall, and don't think that was the case.

2) We did not have a backup plan to fill that need with a Spring signee if he had still not qualified. Meet David Andoh.

No inside info here, but based on his decision to go to JUCO instead of prep school, it is most likely Allen's academic issue was the lack of a qualifying SAT/ACT score. After signing in the Fall, he would have had various opportunities to test again and try to qualify. For a variety of reasons, even some good students struggle with standardized tests. At some point you realize it's not going to happen and you move on. We signed Andoh, who actually was a higher rated prospect out of HS, is 2 years older and more physically mature and has a more developed game. By showing Allen we wanted him here enough to take a chance on him even though he wasn't qualified, IMHO we significantly increased the chances of signing him as Andoh's replacement in 2 years, when he should be much better prepared for D1 ball. If that were to happen, this could actually turn out to be one of the best pieces of recruiting we have ever done.

What can I say about Bonds? He was straight out of central casting; tailor-made for the role of PG at Liberty University. Signed 2 days after his official visit and during the intervening time did nothing to indicate to our coaches or even his own family that he was anything but totally excited to be a Flame. Based on his comments to the press it appears the one person (other than perhaps his GF or a couple of his homies) who may have known he had reservations was his HS coach, Drew Maddux. It seems pretty obvious that Maddux thinks Braxton was too good to be at LU, and I'm willing to bet he made sure the kid knew about the opportunity that was there at UT because of their lack of a PG. I don't buy Braxton's public statement that it was totally about being closer to home. That was for the benefit of his mom and grandparents. I'm sure it was a factor, but it's obvious to me there were also basketball motives, and perhaps a bit of a dislike for the Liberty Way as well. Unlike Allen, this one came out of the blue, and the staff needed to act quickly to bring in a PG so we weren't left with only a walkon to back up Retic. The jury is out on Dembley, just as it is on the 8 other new players joining the team, and just as it would have been on Bonds and Allen.

Who's to blame? I'm going to say that in the case of Allen, there is no blame because nothing bad actually happened. He was replaced with a player who is without question better prepared to help us next year and the support we showed him improves our chances of having him on board in 2 years. In the case of Bonds, I really think it's a stretch to think there is anything our coaches could have done. I blame Bonds, with perhaps an assist from Drew Maddux.

It probably seems like I spend a lot of time defending Dale Layer. I guess I plead guilty as charged in a case like this. The one thing I will not defend is his record over the last 3 years. It needs to change starting this year, and if it doesn't, we need a new coach.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#458666
You are splitting hairs on 'arriving'. If you sign a letter, you have 'arrived' on the roster.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458670
Purple Haize wrote:You are splitting hairs on 'arriving'. If you sign a letter, you have 'arrived' on the roster.
Prime directive: "Thou shalt assign blame."
Secondary directive: "Thou shalt split hairs". 8)
By TheGovernor
Posts
#458686
olldflame wrote:
No inside info here, but based on his decision to go to JUCO instead of prep school, it is most likely Allen's academic issue was the lack of a qualifying SAT/ACT score. After signing in the Fall, he would have had various opportunities to test again and try to qualify.
False
It seems pretty obvious that Maddux thinks Braxton was too good to be at LU, and I'm willing to bet he made sure the kid knew about the opportunity that was there at UT because of their lack of a PG. I don't buy Braxton's public statement that it was totally about being closer to home. That was for the benefit of his mom and grandparents. I'm sure it was a factor, but it's obvious to me there were also basketball motives, and perhaps a bit of a dislike for the Liberty Way as well.

I agree (there is a difference between agreeing and saying what is true or false for sure)
Who's to blame? In the case of Bonds, I really think it's a stretch to think there is anything our coaches could have done.
False. Something could have been done. Not to say it would have changed anything, but much more could have been done.
It probably seems like I spend a lot of time defending Dale Layer. I guess I plead guilty as charged in a case like this. The one thing I will not defend is his record over the last 3 years. It needs to change starting this year, and if it doesn't, we need a new coach.
I agree, it does seem that way :D (Dont take this personally, Im just giving you a hard time)
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458689
OK Gov, enlighten us. You love saying things are false without explanation. It's your little gimmick. I guess you must think it comes across as authoritative. What was false about the first statement? If you actually have information as to Allens situation I will take your word for it. Otherwise I would stand by my statement that going the JUCO route more likely means an issue with test scores. When a recruit has issues with his HS transcript, a good prep school can usually help him straighten that out in a year. The ONLY way you can qualify without meeting the minimum test score is to obtain an associate degree or enroll in a 4 year school as a non-qualifier, paying your own way and then make qualifying grades. Well, there is the Derrick Rose method, but I don't recommend it.

Enlighten us again. What "more" could our coaches have done about the Bonds situation? While you're at it I'd be interested in knowing how you would know what they did and didn't do. Then explain why they should have bothered if, as you implied, it wouldn't have changed anything.
By TheGovernor
Posts
#458690
olldflame wrote:OK Gov, enlighten us. You love saying things are false without explanation. It's your little gimmick. I guess you must think it comes across as authoritative. What was false about the first statement? If you actually have information as to Allens situation I will take your word for it. Otherwise I would stand by my statement that going the JUCO route more likely means an issue with test scores. When a recruit has issues with his HS transcript, a good prep school can usually help him straighten that out in a year. The ONLY way you can qualify without meeting the minimum test score is to obtain an associate degree or enroll in a 4 year school as a non-qualifier, paying your own way and then make qualifying grades. Well, there is the Derrick Rose method, but I don't recommend it.

Enlighten us again. What "more" could our coaches have done about the Bonds situation? Now explain why they should have bothered if, as you implied, it wouldn't have changed anything.
1. Very well could have been SAT Scores, but its not all that is involved.

2. When you are more involved in your players lives, you will be able to pick up on some of the things that are going on and head them off first.

Im not authoritative and I do nothing that is a gimmick. Just trying to shed some light in a place that refuses to see anything except what they believe is told to them by the other people that have no idea what is going on.

I dont ever spread the details or I wont be taken seriously because I refuse to suck up and only accept things that are spun in a positive way. I know what goes on, but when I tell everyone what happens no one will believe it anyway. They would rather believe someone elses speculation of what is happening. So I will save my energy, no one wants to believe the truth when it doesnt align with what they think around here. So I will be happy to point out what is true and false in when it is all speculation so that someone may be able to look at it and determine what is being said is true or what is being said as false.

I told you before, Ive been here for a while as a reader, I see what happens from the outside perspective. So for people that are reading, or people that are here to learn something rather than to draw their conclusions based on their own bias, I'll be happy to point out which SPECULATION is true this time and which SPECULATION is false next time. Its not calling anyone out or making anyone feel dumb, its just for the next person that punches "Liberty University Men's Basketball" in Google. So when they come around they dont see someone's SPECULATION and take it as truth. I'm not a troll, I'm not a gimmick, I am just here to make you all realize that I know what Im talking about and then maybe you'll believe something I say. So tell me... What have I been wrong about so far? Pretty sure I said Bonds to UT before ANYONE did. Pretty sure I said a lot of things that have been true. What would happen if I jump out the gates and make a crazy statement (that is true) that no one can confirm and no one believes? You'll scroll over the facts in my posts just as you would do to anyone else that talks about things that you cant confirm that dont align with what you think up until this point.

So Google surfer, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

My PM's stay empty because no one cares who I am, they all just see that I am always right.
Last edited by TheGovernor on August 13th, 2014, 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By bluejacket
Posts
#458692
TheGovernor wrote:
olldflame wrote:OK Gov, enlighten us. You love saying things are false without explanation. It's your little gimmick. I guess you must think it comes across as authoritative. What was false about the first statement? If you actually have information as to Allens situation I will take your word for it. Otherwise I would stand by my statement that going the JUCO route more likely means an issue with test scores. When a recruit has issues with his HS transcript, a good prep school can usually help him straighten that out in a year. The ONLY way you can qualify without meeting the minimum test score is to obtain an associate degree or enroll in a 4 year school as a non-qualifier, paying your own way and then make qualifying grades. Well, there is the Derrick Rose method, but I don't recommend it.

Enlighten us again. What "more" could our coaches have done about the Bonds situation? Now explain why they should have bothered if, as you implied, it wouldn't have changed anything.
1. Very well could have been SAT Scores, but its not all that is involved.

2. When you are more involved in your players lives, you will be able to pick up on some of the things that are going on and head them off first.

Im not authoritative and I do nothing that is a gimmick. Just trying to shed some light in a place that refuses to see anything except what they believe is told to them by the other people that have no idea what is going on.

I dont ever spread the details or I wont be taken seriously because I refuse to suck up and only accept things that are spun in a positive way. I know what goes on, but when I tell everyone what happens no one will believe it anyway. They would rather believe someone elses speculation of what is happening. So I will save my energy, no one wants to believe the truth when it doesnt align with what they think around here. So I will be happy to point out what is true and false in when it is all speculation so that someone may be able to look at it and determine what is being said is true or what is being said as false.

I told you before, Ive been here for a while as a reader, I see what happens from the outside perspective. So for people that are reading, or people that are here to learn something rather than to draw their conclusions based on their own bias, I'll be happy to point out which SPECULATION is true this time and which SPECULATION is false next time. Its not calling anyone out or making anyone feel dumb, its just for the next person that punches "Liberty University Men's Basketball" in Google. So when they come around they dont see someone's SPECULATION and take it as truth. I'm not a troll, I'm not a gimmick, I am just here to make you all realize that I know what Im talking about and then maybe you'll believe something I say. So tell me... What have I been wrong about so far? Pretty sure I said Bonds to UT before ANYONE did. Pretty sure I said a lot of things that have been true. What would happen if I jump out the gates and make a crazy statement (that is true) that no one can confirm and no one believes? You'll scroll over the facts in my posts just as you would do to anyone else that talks about things that you cant confirm that dont align with what you think up until this point.

So Google surfer, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

My PM's stay empty because no one cares who I am, they all just see that I am always right.
:cheerleader :cheerleader
User avatar
By bluejacket
Posts
#458693
TheGovernor wrote:
olldflame wrote:
No inside info here, but based on his decision to go to JUCO instead of prep school, it is most likely Allen's academic issue was the lack of a qualifying SAT/ACT score. After signing in the Fall, he would have had various opportunities to test again and try to qualify.
False
It seems pretty obvious that Maddux thinks Braxton was too good to be at LU, and I'm willing to bet he made sure the kid knew about the opportunity that was there at UT because of their lack of a PG. I don't buy Braxton's public statement that it was totally about being closer to home. That was for the benefit of his mom and grandparents. I'm sure it was a factor, but it's obvious to me there were also basketball motives, and perhaps a bit of a dislike for the Liberty Way as well.

I agree (there is a difference between agreeing and saying what is true or false for sure)
Who's to blame? In the case of Bonds, I really think it's a stretch to think there is anything our coaches could have done.
False. Something could have been done. Not to say it would have changed anything, but much more could have been done.
It probably seems like I spend a lot of time defending Dale Layer. I guess I plead guilty as charged in a case like this. The one thing I will not defend is his record over the last 3 years. It needs to change starting this year, and if it doesn't, we need a new coach.
I agree, it does seem that way :D (Dont take this personally, Im just giving you a hard time)
:clapping
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#458695
olldflame wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:You are splitting hairs on 'arriving'. If you sign a letter, you have 'arrived' on the roster.
Prime directive: "Thou shalt assign blame."
Secondary directive: "Thou shalt split hairs". 8)
I have fewer and fewer hairs with which to split 8)
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#458696
TheGovernor wrote:
olldflame wrote:OK Gov, enlighten us. You love saying things are false without explanation. It's your little gimmick. I guess you must think it comes across as authoritative. What was false about the first statement? If you actually have information as to Allens situation I will take your word for it. Otherwise I would stand by my statement that going the JUCO route more likely means an issue with test scores. When a recruit has issues with his HS transcript, a good prep school can usually help him straighten that out in a year. The ONLY way you can qualify without meeting the minimum test score is to obtain an associate degree or enroll in a 4 year school as a non-qualifier, paying your own way and then make qualifying grades. Well, there is the Derrick Rose method, but I don't recommend it.

Enlighten us again. What "more" could our coaches have done about the Bonds situation? Now explain why they should have bothered if, as you implied, it wouldn't have changed anything.
1. Very well could have been SAT Scores, but its not all that is involved.

2. When you are more involved in your players lives, you will be able to pick up on some of the things that are going on and head them off first.

Im not authoritative and I do nothing that is a gimmick. Just trying to shed some light in a place that refuses to see anything except what they believe is told to them by the other people that have no idea what is going on.

I dont ever spread the details or I wont be taken seriously because I refuse to suck up and only accept things that are spun in a positive way. I know what goes on, but when I tell everyone what happens no one will believe it anyway. They would rather believe someone elses speculation of what is happening. So I will save my energy, no one wants to believe the truth when it doesnt align with what they think around here. So I will be happy to point out what is true and false in when it is all speculation so that someone may be able to look at it and determine what is being said is true or what is being said as false.

I told you before, Ive been here for a while as a reader, I see what happens from the outside perspective. So for people that are reading, or people that are here to learn something rather than to draw their conclusions based on their own bias, I'll be happy to point out which SPECULATION is true this time and which SPECULATION is false next time. Its not calling anyone out or making anyone feel dumb, its just for the next person that punches "Liberty University Men's Basketball" in Google. So when they come around they dont see someone's SPECULATION and take it as truth. I'm not a troll, I'm not a gimmick, I am just here to make you all realize that I know what Im talking about and then maybe you'll believe something I say. So tell me... What have I been wrong about so far? Pretty sure I said Bonds to UT before ANYONE did. Pretty sure I said a lot of things that have been true. What would happen if I jump out the gates and make a crazy statement (that is true) that no one can confirm and no one believes? You'll scroll over the facts in my posts just as you would do to anyone else that talks about things that you cant confirm that dont align with what you think up until this point.

So Google surfer, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

My PM's stay empty because no one cares who I am, they all just see that I am always right.
You have PMs? :shock:
By TheGovernor
Posts
#458754
thepostman wrote:That's a long post. I'm sure it was quality.
I think you indirectly proved my point. Thank you... maybe.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#458774
We've gotten seriously off topic here, and it's largely on me. (see what I did there?) I started another thread titled "Who's to Blame?" to continue the fascinating discussion we were having. Now back to our topic.

If we don't offer a scholarship to Eron Gordon, I blame Dale Layer!
User avatar
By bluejacket
Posts
#458777
olldflame wrote:If we don't offer a scholarship to Eron Gordon, I blame Dale Layer!
:clapping Precisely.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#465954
Still no offer to Eron. Unless there has been some direct communication from the kid or his dad basically telling us not to bother, I really don't understand why. If you are going to go with the reasoning that we should focus our efforts on players we have a more realistic chance to sign, then why did we offer this kid?

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/nick-ward

4 star player rated top 15 nationally at the PF position. He has offers from half of the BIG (just for starters). No indication there is any Liberty connection.
User avatar
By BJWilliams
Registration Days Posts
#465955
We really won't know (on the record) until he signs somewhere whether or not we had any interest or if they communicated to not pursue him
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#465969
He would be by far the most highly rated recruit we have ever signed BJ. Of course we are "interested". The issue is whether our staff sees the importance of letting players of this caliber, who have a connection to the school either through family like Eron or through their faith, know that we want them to come and the fact that they have tons of offers from high major programs doesn't intimidate us. The way I look at it, even if he has told us he is not interested, what's the harm of making the offer? For a "legacy" with that kind of talent, I think it should be automatic.
Last edited by olldflame on October 27th, 2014, 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#465975
SuperJon wrote:Evan screwed Dale already. Why would he go back to that well?
Different person. Different player. Evan didn't have nearly the talent his 2 brothers have. There is a good chance Eron will only be around 1 or 2 years before entering the draft no matter where he goes. I'm sure DL would have no problem wishing him well in the NBA after having his services a season or 2. I'm realistic enough to say we have little chance to get this kid. If we don't offer him we have no chance. It's really more about establishing a pattern of putting ourselves out there with players who normally wouldn't consider a low major program, but have some sort of connection to Liberty.
By TIMSCAR20
Registration Days Posts
#510738
I covered Seton Hall in an early game last season before they got it going in the Big East. They have a ton of talent in the backcourt. This is a good get for them. They are an up and coming Big East team that are about to start playing on a national scale once again. Hope I get a game or two of theirs next season.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#550038
Eron has announced he is transferring from Seton Hall. No, I don't think he has any interest in coming to Liberty. My best guess would be Butler.
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