A Sea Of Red

courtesy of our friend WEF : http://winthropfans.com/viewtopic.php?f ... e8b856e0c5
WOW: impressive work here

WEF wrote: 1. UNCA 15-2 (WU)
2. CU 11-6 (@ LU)
3. CCU 11-6 (@ VMI)
4. CSU 10-7 (@ RU)
5. WU 8-9 (@ UNCA)
6. VMI 8-9 (CCU)
7. LU 8-9 (CU)
8. HPU 8-10
9. PC 7-10 (@ GWU)
10. GWU 6-11 (PC)
11. RU 2-15 (CSU)

Given that there are possibilities of 4 and 5 way ties, the tiebreakers get a little tricky, so I'm not guaranteeing that I have all of these right...but I tried to figure them out the best I can based on the tiebreaker procedure I've seen from the conference for this year (which did change a little bit due to the unbalanced schedules):

UNCA - Has clinched 1-seed

CU - Clinches 2-seed if: CU wins OR CCU loses
Clinches 3-seed if: CU loses AND CCU wins

CCU - Clinches 2-seed if: CCU wins AND CU loses
Clinches 3-seed if: CCU loses OR CU wins

CSU - Has clinched 4-seed

WU - Clinches 5-seed if: WU wins
Clinches 7-seed if: WU loses AND LU loses
Clinches 8-seed if: WU loses AND LU wins

LU - Clinches 5-seed if: LU wins AND WU loses AND VMI loses
Clinches 6-seed if: WU wins AND VMI loses (no matter what LU does)
Clinches 6-seed if: LU wins AND WU loses AND VMI wins
Clinches 7-seed if: WU wins AND VMI wins (no matter what LU does)
Clinches 8-seed if: LU loses AND WU loses

VMI - Clinches 5-seed if: VMI wins AND WU loses
Clinches 5-seed if: VMI loses AND WU loses AND LU loses
Clinches 6-seed if: VMI wins AND WU wins
Clinches 6-seed if: VMI loses AND WU loses AND LU wins
Clinches 7-seed if: VMI loses AND WU wins

HPU - Clinches 6-seed if: WU loses AND LU loses
Clinches 7-seed if: WU loses AND LU wins
Clinches 8-seed if: WU wins

GWU - Already clinched 9-seed

RU - Already clinched 10-seed

Not that it affects you guys, but i made one correction since you copied it....HPU clinches 7-seed if WU loses AND LU wins....not what i had originally.

thanks and the correction has been made. Good work bro

crazy all the movement with a win or loss by one team

seeds go from a 5 to an 8 just like that.

What happens if VMI, LU, and WU lose?

Or if they all win?

Bigsouthking wrote:What happens if VMI, LU, and WU lose?

Or if they all win?

If they all lose, then VMI is the 5th seed, HPU is the 6th, WU is the 7th, and LU is the 8th. All would be tied and VMI was 3-2 against the group and LU was 2-3. WU and HPU were both. 500 against the group (HPU was 2-2, WU was 3-3), but HPU swept WU....now if PC wins also, it's a 5-way tie, but they split against all of the other four teams, so they don't affect anyone.

If they all win, then it is WU getting the 5th, VMI the 6th, LU the 7th, and HPU the 8th. That creates a 3-way tie between WU, LU, and VMI...and WU is 3-1, VMI is 2-2, and LU is 1-3 against the tied teams.

Bigsouthking wrote:What happens if VMI, LU, and WU lose?

Or if they all win?

according to WEF if we all lose, it goes

6. VMI
7. WU
8. LU

have to look harder to figure out the wins. Safe to say its not likely tho.

ok I look like an ARSE 'cause he posted quicker than me.

at least I was pretty close tho so I'm not deleting it.

I've been talking back and forth with the league office, and apparently the tie-breaking scenarios posted in the weekly report are not the same ones that were posted in the conference manual. So there's a lot of confusion right now. I appreciate WEF's hard work, as I was doing the same thing. But the whole thing is a total cluster**** ... oy. I'm not posting anything on the blog until tomorrow once the conference office sends me something.

The whole mini-conference thing between four or five teams doesn't exist because some teams played some of the teams only once. In the potential 5-way tie, VMI and Liberty only played High Point once, so that screws everything up.

Another reason the Big Suck sucks... Leave to KK to screw up tie breakers. Wow.

Any of the two- or three-team tiebreakers that involve teams that played each other the same amount of times are good to go.

Where it gets weird is if, say Liberty, High Point and Winthrop all finish in a three-way tie. Because LU and HPU only played once, then it goes to how they did against the teams they all played twice in the standings, in descending order. For those three, it would be Asheville, Campbell, Presby and Radford. It makes my brain hurt trying to figure that out right now.

And that five-team potential 8-10 tie is a disaster.

I can say this about Liberty. The Flames have to have either Winthrop or VMI lose to get into the top six, regardless of what happens in the Campbell game. LU would finish last in a three-team tiebreaker with those two at 9-9, therefore would finish seventh. So LU fans certainly want Asheville to hold serve Saturday. Or for Coastal to win in Lexington.

Wow. To think I would want to play Winthrop as the #8 seed. Y'all are playing well, and HPU just drilled Campbell, I want no part of you or HPU, and am happy I guess that we won't be playing in Lexington.

We played hard at UNCA tonight, but to no avail. I will say one thing, that new building they have is quite impressive, they would be stupid to not bid for the tournament to stay there (of course, while not trying to draw womens tournies from other conferences). You walk down to all the seating, but they have most of the concourse wide open, where if you are walking it, you can still see the game action. Impressive.

Is their new arena nicer then the vines?

Chris Lang wrote:I've been talking back and forth with the league office, and apparently the tie-breaking scenarios posted in the weekly report are not the same ones that were posted in the conference manual. So there's a lot of confusion right now. I appreciate WEF's hard work, as I was doing the same thing. But the whole thing is a total cluster**** ... oy. I'm not posting anything on the blog until tomorrow once the conference office sends me something.

The whole mini-conference thing between four or five teams doesn't exist because some teams played some of the teams only once. In the potential 5-way tie, VMI and Liberty only played High Point once, so that screws everything up.

I hate when conferences get so big that not everyone gets to play each other twice, just on the principle of it...but add this as another reason i don't like it...it complicates the tiebreaker procedure to the point where even the conference doesn't know what is right.

When the conference cannot figure out their own tie breaker, there is a problem. Big South ahs history of things like this. I recall the football tie breaker deal from a couple years ago.

ballcoach15 wrote:When the conference cannot figure out their own tie breaker, there is a problem. Big South ahs history of things like this. I recall the football tie breaker deal from a couple years ago.

I think we took it from the Big 12's Texas/ Oklahoma / Texas Tech debacle!

PAmedic wrote:thanks and the correction has been made. Good work bro

crazy all the movement with a win or loss by one team

seeds go from a 5 to an 8 just like that.

I haven't seen this much 'movement' since I ate that 2nd bran muffin!

What I'm pulling for: us to get #6 and HPU to get #8. Other than that I don't care.

If we get to #6 we wouldn't have to face UNCA until the finals and that means not having to play anyone on their home court until then. I also like HPU at #8 because perhaps they could knock off UNCA in the quarters.

Ok, so now if I'm reading this correctly, the only team that matters in a potential five-way tie between Liberty, High Point, Winthrop, Presbyterian and VMI at 8-10 is Radford, because that's the only team out of the other six teams in the league that all five played twice.

Liberty only played GWU once.
Presbyterian only played Asheville once.
Winthrop only played CCU and CSU once.
VMI only played Campbell once.

High Point was the only one that lost to Radford, so that put HPU immediately at No. 8 if that's the case.

Now that you get High Point out of there, you can go through the four-team mini-conference because Winthrop, Liberty, PC and VMI all played each other twice. In that case, Winthrop is 4-2 against the other three, PC is 3-3, VMI is 3-3 and Liberty is 2-4. So Winthrop is the five, VMI is the six and Liberty is the seven.

If Presbyterian doesn't get to 8-10, and there's a four-way tie between LU, High Point, Winthrop and VMI at 8-10, you go back to the other tie-breaker. The only two-time teams in common for the three are Asheville (all 0-2), Presbyterian (all 1-1) and Radford. So again, High Point is out and gets the No. 8 because of the loss to Radford.

In the three-team mini-conference, Winthrop gets the No. 5, VMI gets the No. 6 and Liberty gets the No. 7.

Now if VMI wins and there's a three-way tie at 8-10 with Liberty, Winthrop and High Point, then you go back to the descending order deal. High Point gets the No. 6 because it beat Campbell, then Winthrop gets the No. 7 because of the season sweep of Liberty. The same thing occurs if Presbyterian gets involved at 8-10 because PC has a win over Campbell, and you don't have to break a PC-High Point tie since PC isn't tourney eligible.

If Winthrop wins and VMI, Liberty and High Point are all 8-10, Winthrop is the No. 5. All three played Coastal twice. Liberty and High Point would have wins (VMI would not, due to a loss tomorrow to fall to 8-10). Then you break the tie between LU and High Point for head-to-head, meaning Liberty is the No. 6, High Point the No. 7 and VMI the No. 8. The same thing occurs if Presbyterian is involved in this tiebreaker because PC was swept by Coastal.

Thanks for all that info, Chris

Basically, for VMI's sake, they beat CCU tomorrow, they'll be either five or six seed, as I see it.....regardless of other results.......

Question for Chris Lang...what if there's a three-way tie between LU, HPU, and PC (if WU, VMI, and PC all win and LU loses)? Would PC's inclusion force it into descending order (instead of the miniconference scenario...even though PC isn't eligible for the tourney?)...if that's the case; PC's inclusion would hurt LU (since i think Campbell would be the first common opponent, and HPU and PC both beat them, and in this scenario, LU would not)..that would make LU the 8-seed, whereas they would be the 7-seed if PC loses, and it is just a 2-team tie...

Hope that made sense.

my head hurts reading this thread. Chris thans for all you are doing. i can imagine you have a chart on a cork board somewhere with a ton of red string that might look like something from CSI by the time the tourney rolls around haha

WinthropEagleFan wrote:Question for Chris Lang...what if there's a three-way tie between LU, HPU, and PC (if WU, VMI, and PC all win and LU loses)? Would PC's inclusion force it into descending order (instead of the miniconference scenario...even though PC isn't eligible for the tourney?)...if that's the case; PC's inclusion would hurt LU (since i think Campbell would be the first common opponent, and HPU and PC both beat them, and in this scenario, LU would not)..that would make LU the 8-seed, whereas they would be the 7-seed if PC loses, and it is just a 2-team tie...

Hope that made sense.

In my understanding, Presbyterian counts in all tiebreaking scenarios, even though they're ineligible for the tournament. So I think you're spot on.

has anyone ever addressed just WHY each conf team doesnt play one another twice?

My guess is something to do with too many teams to allow a decent OOC schedule? But for this league, thats really secondary.

If having the opportunity to play Kentucky, or Clemson, or UVa ends up making the conf seeding such a debacle, why is it even a debate?

Have everyone play each other twice so the standings are simple, and oh well- you only get 4 OOC games. The End.

I guess I'm going to have to retire and become a league commish.

Way too complicated. I'll just pull for LU to win on Saturday and let the rest fall as it may.

Medic ... the coaches didn't want to play 20 league games. Only a handful of conferences have done it. I think the Atlantic Sun plays 20, and the Northeast might have played 22 one year when there were 12 teams.

This won't happen again, because the tournament (I assume) will be seeded North 3 vs. South 6, North 4 vs. South 5 and so on next season ... the only ties that will need to be broken will be done so within the division, where everyone will play twice.