If roundball is your blood, this is the place to discuss the Flames as they move into the Ritchie McKay era for the 2nd time.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#337262
All time leading scorer
All time leading assist man
#1 in career FG made, FT made, FT attempted, FT%
These records have been standing for 31 years now

He led us to our only National Championship at any level. Not to mention he’s probably still the most recognizable name of any of our former players.

It’s hard to make a case against him other than “he played at a much lower level, etc.”
Last edited by jcmanson on October 31st, 2011, 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337263
Karl played 4 years.

He was without a doubt a D1 calibre player. It would have been interesting to see what kind of numbers he would have put up at our current level.

Another thing that should be noted is that while he was a scorer, not just a shooter, he took a lot of perimeter shots, and got only 2 points for each of them. I think conservatively you add about 350 points if they had the 3 point line back then.

"Greatest" is really subjective, and takes in longevity. "Best" (IMHO) is more of a snapshot of how good someone is at their peak.

Having seen them all, my vote for best player ever to put on a Liberty uni goes to Baily Alston, who did in fact play only 3 years, part of which was in transition and D1. He had some of his best games against ACC schools. If he had played here 4 years he would be our scoring leader.

For "greatest" I'd say it's a tough call between Hess and Alston, but I give Karl the nod for what he has accomplished post-LU as a referee.
Last edited by olldflame on January 21st, 2011, 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#337265
olldflame wrote:Karl played 4 years.
Thanks for that. The media guide has him listed at '77-'80. I figured that was 3 years (77-78, 78-79, 79-80). I also thought I had heard he only played 3, but now I realize I got he and Bailey confused.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337268
Karl is not lacking for confidence. What is not widely known (although certainly no secret) is that he is actually Dr. Karl Hess PHD, and a liscensed clinical psychologist. Add that to being one of the top 10 or so college referees in the nation, and I don't fault him for having "high self-esteem".
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337269
BuryYourDuke wrote:I'm not a student of the old days at LU, LBC, or the like. Oldflame, do you think that Larry Blair belongs in the conversation or not even close?
I would rate Larry 3rd among perimiter players after Baily and Karl. Jesse might be in that conversation before he is done. It's pretty much apples and oranges, but I would also put Peter Aluma ahead of Larry.
User avatar
By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#337270
Karl was before my time but I saw the competition he was facing at Tennessee Temple. It is tough to have him in the discussion because we have no way of knowing how he would have performed at the NCAA Division I level.

On the other hand, we know exactly what Bailey could do in DI. If he wouldn't have spent that year at Rutgers before transferring, his career numbers would be nearly unattainable. He is without a doubt the GOAT @ LU.

Countdown to Scar arriving and reminding us about how many assists he was given credit for by simply giving it to Bailey and letting him do his thing.

:lol:

And for the record, Larry was a special player and no disrespect is meant toward him. Bailey was just THAT good.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#337279
Sly Fox wrote:On the other hand, we know exactly what Bailey could do in DI. He is without a doubt the GOAT @ LU.
Then why, with a committee of people who have been around Liberty much more than you, did they induct Karl Hess into the Hall of Fame first?
User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#337280
I agree about LB. I'm one of the biggest LB fans around, but IMO Hess and Bailey have to beat him out. The one thing LB has over those 2 though is he made it to the Big Dance. Maybe if he made it twice it would be enough to put him over the hump.
User avatar
By kingaling42
Registration Days Posts
#337281
SuperJon wrote:
Sly Fox wrote:On the other hand, we know exactly what Bailey could do in DI. He is without a doubt the GOAT @ LU.
Then why, with a committee of people who have been around Liberty much more than you, did they induct Karl Hess into the Hall of Fame first?
Not knowing anything about these players as a UNCA guy- it seems to me that HOF inductions have a lot to do with "who came first" as opposed to "who was better/best/greatest".. Hess being inducted first is likely indicative of his arrival at LU first and probably not comparative to any other player who came afterwards- again, I am speaking without any specific knowledge- just an observation of HOF inductions in general..
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337284
I don't think Karl being the first basketball player chosen to the HOF is in any way an endorsement by that committee that he is our GOAT. I doubt if anyone thinks Kelvin Edwards was our greatest football player either. Karl was our first great player, still holds several all-time records after all these years, and has had a number of noteworthy achievements in and out of basketball over the years since he graduated. I most definately agree he should have been the first MBB player in the hall, whether he is the GOAT or not.
User avatar
By Cider Jim
Registration Days Posts
#337285
I saw both Hess and Alston play in their prime, and Bailey was by far a better player.
User avatar
By SumItUp
Registration Days Posts
#337287
I never watched Karl play, but I did not miss a home game with Bailey while I was in Lynchburg. I loved to watch him score. He was a special player. The atmosphere in that tiny gym was loud, crazy and fun.
User avatar
By flameshaw
Registration Days Posts
#337292
I have seen em all play (at least since 72)and I would say Peter Aluma hands down. The sad part is he could have been even better, but he was afforded royal treatment by the coaching staff and wasn't really developed to his full potential because of his status.
By TIMSCAR20
Registration Days Posts
#337301
Karl being at the top of the charts in scoring and assists is really incredible no matter what level he played. I never saw him play so I really can't judge on anything but stats and anecdotes. However I played with Alston and saw most of Blair's games and between those 2 I give it to Alston hands down. 1st of all he put up the same numbers in a full season less than Blair. Secondly Alston had every defender on the court trying to guard him every night and he shot nearly 52% from the field. LB was a volume shooter that shot a low percentage. Third, Alston's skill set was just simply better. He was 6'3" a better athlete, longer arms and a better leaper. Plus he ran a 4.29 40 yard dash. He was a ridiculous athlete.

Before you say I am biased, I will tell you that I didn't get along with Bailey most of the time we were in school. He didn't play much defense becasue he didn't have to. If he had Jesse Sanders' work ethic he would have been a 1st round draft choice. But he got away with murder IMO. He and I actually even got into a shoving match in a game while bring the ball up the court. We get along fine now and he has admitted that he was not the best teammate back then so it's all good now.

Alston and Blair should have their numbers retired very soon. It has been way too long overdue for both.
User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#337304
SCAR wrote:Alston and Blair should have their numbers retired very soon. It has been way too long overdue for both.
:nod
By JK37
Registration Days Posts
#337305
Karl was inducted into HOF first because committee knew his induction speech would be incredible and hilarious :lol: - which It was! If you haven't seen it, go find it on www.libertyflames.com in the Multimedia section and watch it.

Oh, and the man does a spot-on impression of Coach Krzyzewski that would have you rolling!
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#337317
His speech was hilarious and I was wondering the entire time if he'd cross the line but he didn't. He just walked up to it and stood at it.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337319
SuperJon wrote:His speech was hilarious and I was wondering the entire time if he'd cross the line but he didn't. He just walked up to it and stood at it.
That was a good way of describing it SJ, and thanks to JK37 for pointing that out. I had not seen it til now for some reason. I really got the idea that Karl wants very much to see our progam move up and believes we can, and he didn't hesitate to say what he thought we lacked.

1) A first class basketball practice facility
2) Big men

And he made it clear that having #1 would help us get #2. This guy is one of a select group of people who see more of college basketball at the highest level than anyone on the planet. He knows what he is talking about.

With all the talk about facility upgrades, has anyone heard anything about a dedicated basketball practice facility?
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#337328
BTW, the "guy in the cowboy hat" was LU's first basketball coach Dan Manley, who is now doing TV commentary for us with Matt Hildebrand. Dan coached Karl for one year before he stepped aside to pursue ministry opportunities because among other things he didn't think he was qualified to take the program where we wanted to go. Looking back, it seems if he was "qualified" to outrecruit some coaching heavyweights for a player like Karl, he may actually have been the man for the job. They hired Harley "Skeeter" Swift, who had played pro ball in the ABA and was a new christian. Bad move. He not only didn't fit in at LU, he was clearly not prepared to coach at the college level. He lasted a year. I can almost bet you that the conversation Doc had with Karl in the suburban played a big role in his "swift" departure.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#337329
I watched that video again and you can't help but be proud of Liberty and excited about where we're going when you hear what all Hess said.

That banquet was September of 2009, before Layer had even coached a game. He said that day that we had a good coach and that we were gonna be alright. Looks like he was right.
Dondi Costin - LU President

Ive gone there a few times since moving to texas b[…]

There’s a cerebral side to the game, which M[…]

NCAA Realignment Megathread

Duke Gonzaga B12? https://larrybrownsports.com/co[…]

FlameFans Fantasy Baseball

We are on!!! Hope to see everyone tonight at 9:30[…]