A Sea Of Red

It's funny that everyone is talking about this now, I thought I was pounding sand when we failed to foul the first time this happened and I started venting on here. Now it's been 3 times....luckily RM agrees with the idea of fouling when up 3 and it's their last chance our guys just havent been able to execute it yet.


Here's the scenario:

We're up 3 with a made basket. They are in bounding the ball with 10 seconds left. Do you foul or not? (both teams are in the double bonus)

I'm playing defense and hoping they don't get an open look. Too much can happen battling for a missed free throw. I take the chance and make them take a contested three.

I don't have a problem with going for the foul there but wouldn't be my choice.

I just think that fouling them is the best decision. I mean, if they get the rebound and then put it back in and tie the game, you get the ball back. It also depends on how good the team is shooting from 3 that night. I mean, Coastal was tearing it up from 3 that night so it scares me to give them the last second shot to send it to overtime. We were winning the rebound battle so it makes sense to take our chances on getting the rebound rather than taking the chance on him making the 3.

Now if the team is struggling from 3 that night and beating us in rebounds, I say let them take the 3.

I have always subscribed to the theory of fouling in that situation but I think you have to practice fouling. Sounds stupid but you really need to practice it. You don't want to foul too soon and you don't want to have an intentional foul. There are ways to get a foul called. I was taught to foul the guy so that if they don't call it, the guy will probably lose the ball or travel. A solid bump while going for the ball will do it or you can reach in or hand check them running them towards out of bounds. It is a lot tougher to execute than it looks.

Guys I dont remember this stuff like you guys do but hasnt there been 2 games that the other team tied it up sending it into overtime with scenerio's very similar? I know 1 for sure but I'm pretty sure there's been 3 total. Then this last game we didnt foul but they didnt hit the shot so it worked out.

If my memory is correct then that would be 2 times not fouling didnt work and 1 where it did

U have to make sure you foul with as few seconds on the clock as possible and that you don't foul them in the act of shooting a 3. That is what makes it tough.

Hold My Own wrote:Guys I dont remember this stuff like you guys do but hasnt there been 2 games that the other team tied it up sending it into overtime with scenerio's very similar? I know 1 for sure but I'm pretty sure there's been 3 total. Then this last game we didnt foul but they didnt hit the shot so it worked out.

If my memory is correct then that would be 2 times not fouling didnt work and 1 where it did

Gardner-Webb at there place a few weeks ago...

foul with little time left

I'm pretty sure GW was the only game that was like that. The other OT games it was us making a shot at the end for the most part.


I think a lot of this depends on your team. If you're a great defensive team (Winthrop) then you play defense. If you're shaking on covering perimeter shooters (Liberty) you foul.

GW for sure, but about 3 weeks ago it happened for the 1st time and I got on here asking why we didnt and a debate broke out on if we should or if we shouldnt

if it was last years squad i would play it out but with this team foul

It doesn't take an open look to tie the game in this situation. The collegiate 3 pointer is simply not that tough a shot, and good shooters can make it with a hand in their face, and getting a hand in their face is really all you are going to do on defense because the LAST thing you want to do is foul the shooter trying to block the shot and send him to the line to shoot 3.

To say "too much can happen" if you put them on the line, while technically correct, doesn't address how LIKELY it is to happen. IMHO it is much harder to make the first FT, miss the second, get the rebound (when the other team has 2 rebounders on the inside slots on the lane) and score in just a few seconds, than it is to make a 3. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw this happen.

I'll never forget many years ago when we had a great chance to beat VT at home; up by 2 and they are at the line with 2 shots to tie it (not an intentional foul). They make the first, miss the second, the rebound takes a funny bounce way outside and they get it and score to win. It was a fluke, and that's what it takes for a team to get 3 points in this situation if you foul. A LOT of luck.

(I voted to foul)

Was it Presby?

The only other time could be Radford when they took a three, missed, and got the put back to tie it with 15 seconds left. That's too much time left to foul though.

I have been around hoops a lot of course so I have seen all these scenarios end all different ways. The wildest for me was one of my few wins as a HS coach. Down 4 with 7 seconds. We get fouled. I tell my guy make the 1st miss the second and he does. I run a play that we used to run at Liberty when I played to get a FT rebound offensively called Tip out and we executed it perfectly and tipped it out to our best shooter who drains a 3 at the buzzer. It was an improbable situation but it happened. We won in OT that night. It is not that simple to foul but it also is not that simple to make the 1st, miss the second rebound it and score with just a few seconds.

I take option C.

Do something so crazy (but legal) that it completely distracts everyone on the court while the clock runs out. Still a gamble, but as a fan in the stands I hope for it every single time.

El Scorcho wrote:I take option C.

Do something so crazy (but legal) that it completely distracts everyone on the court while the clock runs out. Still a gamble, but as a fan in the stands I hope for it every single time.

Lie down and bark like a dog

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that is so amazing! haha....

With regards to our team...

Since we are so small, doesn't that put us at a disadvantage when trying to grab a rebound? It seems that, if we foul someone, he has a significantly better chance than normal of hitting the first one, intentionally missing the second, having a taller teammate get a rebound above our Lilliputian squad, and put it back in to tie up the score...

We have outrebounded 7 of our last 10 opponents.

I don't know what the stats are on how often the shooting team gets the rebound on a free throw, but the other team has a huge advantage with the 2 inside rebounders. There is a reason coaches harp so much on getting position and boxing out under the boards, and in this case the rules have done most of the work for you.

Ed Dantes wrote:With regards to our team...

Since we are so small, doesn't that put us at a disadvantage when trying to grab a rebound? It seems that, if we foul someone, he has a significantly better chance than normal of hitting the first one, intentionally missing the second, having a taller teammate get a rebound above our Lilliputian squad, and put it back in to tie up the score...

When you foul, you are putting the pressure on one guy to make his first free throw. That player knows that if he doesn't make that free throw, he loses the game for his team. That's a lot of pressure to deal with.

Then missing the second free throw on purpose is not as easy as it sounds. Plus it is not the norm that the shooting team gets the rebound off of the free throw.

However, like I said before... If we are getting killed on rebounds then it is probably a better idea to let them shoot the three and get a hand in their face. The problem you run into there is that if the player gets fouled he has three attempts from the free throw. I would rather put the pressure on them to make the first free throw, miss the second, get the rebound, and make one more shot. For that to happen it takes a lot of luck.

A good three point shooter will make that shot at the end of the game, even with a hand in his face. As good as Coastal was shooting from 3 the other night, I wouldn't have wanted to gamble on a last second 3 pointer to send the game to overtime.

I also thought about how if Mason had fouled us and put us in this situation then we would have had a much smaller chance of making that game go to OT. Just a thought...

SCAR wrote:I have always subscribed to the theory of fouling in that situation but I think you have to practice fouling. Sounds stupid but you really need to practice it. You don't want to foul too soon and you don't want to have an intentional foul. There are ways to get a foul called. I was taught to foul the guy so that if they don't call it, the guy will probably lose the ball or travel. A solid bump while going for the ball will do it or you can reach in or hand check them running them towards out of bounds. It is a lot tougher to execute than it looks.

Couldnt agree more Scar. Thats why youre a great coach! IMO you def. foul, but timing is key... Its an art just like a jumpshot or good defense.

I said play defense. I used to be a foul them guy, but I've just seen it done incorrectly way too many times. I came to the conclusion that it's too difficult to do correctly over just playing defense. You can do it too early, and then you're putting the pressure on your own FT shooter. The longer you wait the chances of you fouling while they're shooting goes up. If you do it too obviously it's intentional. The opposing team is in control of where the ball is going on the 2nd shot. It's just too easy to screw up. Might as well just man up and get a hand in their face.

LUconn wrote:I said play defense. I used to be a foul them guy, but I've just seen it done incorrectly way too many times. I came to the conclusion that it's too difficult to do correctly over just playing defense. You can do it too early, and then you're putting the pressure on your own FT shooter. The longer you wait the chances of you fouling while they're shooting goes up. If you do it too obviously it's intentional. The opposing team is in control of where the ball is going on the 2nd shot. It's just too easy to screw up. Might as well just man up and get a hand in their face.

I see what your saying which is why the argument will always live on, but I think thats why you practice it, and when you do it will work. You apply good pressure in the back-court and when the ball crosses halfcourt you foul before they are close enough to shoot and foul well. If by some fluke they hit the first and miss the second and get the rebound they still have to score again in the time left. If you do foul too early it could hurt you but i would rather put pressure on my best free-throw shooter to knock em down then my entire team in OT, especially if we are playing a good shooting team like VMI who also only needs about 25 seconds to score 15 points. Both sides could be argued well and in that situation its a tough decision. The G-W game I think that there is no question that you HAVE to foul since you are playing a team that is in their gym who has already hit 10 3's on the game at that point.