[Rocketfan]

Duke Edsil.....wow what a joke of a referee that guy is, i really hope you aren't him cause we used to chronicle his constant biases and mistakes. Plus i remember sitting one night with FSN and Duke told me in regards to traveling of any sort " you know we don't call that" - the less he comes to LU the better. Seriously we did his record vs our team one year with games he officiated and we won a lot more when he wasn't here lol

[D Edcil]

I am not important, but judging by the scales I may be big!!!
JF has never cared what internal critics say. That is his strength and weakness. What JF CAN NOT stand is to be embarrassed (spelling) and losing money. JF ALWAYS goes where the money is and IF, not saying he will, the losing continues he is in trouble. Now if the $$$$ dries up, the wins won't save him!! (See: Former Football Coaches)

WE AGREE!

But really, football is the best example...do you see how much time they were given? and some of you (not sure about you edcil) still feel like if you yell loud enough he'll do something....that's funny! He's well aware of our past 3 years and that will go a long way, i.e. much longer than football ever did simply from the record aspect alone...I'm tellin you, for every top 2 year he's allowed a losing season so some of you better pace yourself

and let's not even get into how much $$$ our football program has lost in the last 5 years although I must say most Football programs do lose money some just WAY more than others....ehh ummm

I agree football is the best example. KK "bought" himself 5 years by always saying, "It takes five years to build the foundation for a good football team". But after 5 years he had nothing to show for it. Many people feel the only reason he was given an extension was b/c they couldn't find anyone else and that he was finally let go b/c the money had dried up and they were even mocking us on MNF. RD has said that within 5 years we would have one of the Top 50 programs in the country. I could not care less how much time they give him, I am just trying to hold him to wha the said.

[D Edcil]

Duke Edsil.....wow what a joke of a referee that guy is, i really hope you aren't him cause we used to chronicle his constant biases and mistakes. Plus i remember sitting one night with FSN and Duke told me in regards to traveling of any sort " you know we don't call that" - the less he comes to LU the better. Seriously we did his record vs our team one year with games he officiated and we won a lot more when he wasn't here lol

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. I have a hard time believing that officials influence the out come of games. As for you "record" did you take into account the teams you were playing? I mean it is hardly a scientific poll since games and opponents play a bigger factor then officials. Now if you charted 10 lu vs opponent x games that he officiated, you MIGHT have a case. He may be arrogant, cocky and out of shape, but give him a break on his officiating skills
BTW, I am POSITIVE the traveling comment was a joke

[A.G.]

Keep on posting, MDIVIVVY! Yeah, the loyalists are going to want to hang you b/c of your "tory" views, but there a lot of people that would like to post similar statements but fear retribution if their alias was known.

[BJWilliams]

Keep on posting, MDIVIVVY! Yeah, the loyalists are going to want to hang you b/c of your "tory" views, but there a lot of people that would like to post similar statements but fear retribution if their alias was known.

Actually MDiIVIVVY is an old friend of mine from my days on 31 my freshman year, and honestly his views do not surprise me in the least

[Hold My Own]

Duke Edsil.....wow what a joke of a referee that guy is, i really hope you aren't him cause we used to chronicle his constant biases and mistakes. Plus i remember sitting one night with FSN and Duke told me in regards to traveling of any sort " you know we don't call that" - the less he comes to LU the better. Seriously we did his record vs our team one year with games he officiated and we won a lot more when he wasn't here lol

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. I have a hard time believing that officials influence the out come of games. As for you "record" did you take into account the teams you were playing? I mean it is hardly a scientific poll since games and opponents play a bigger factor then officials. Now if you charted 10 lu vs opponent x games that he officiated, you MIGHT have a case. He may be arrogant, cocky and out of shape, but give him a break on his officiating skills
BTW, I am POSITIVE the traveling comment was a joke

You must not know Duke!

[Hold My Own]

AG you're going to leave the dark side one day I promise!

[A.G.]

What do you mean? That I'll be all "happy happy joy joy" all the time. No chance of that. If being on the dark side keeps me supporting Coach D, then'll call me Lord Vader! If being on the dark side keeps me from being satisfied with the way things appear to be run (into the ground) in certain programs, then I'll stay. Consider me a voice of dissented reason. Personally, as we all want LU to stand for excellence in Christian education, then we should demand excellence in Christian athletics. We are closer to that goal in basketball and football than we may know, and perhaps creeping towards the other extreme in other sports with better records. Remember this: Winning covers up a multitude of sins. If we have a lousy year in basketball next year, I may be the loudest voice in crying for the coach's head, my young friend.

[intheknow]

while watching the game at winthrop tues, i noticed a continuing pattern, a failure to produce a decent 2nd half performance this season. i am wondering if had anything to do with duntons usual halftime talks, which is always just that. talk, no adjustments, no coaching etc. or could it have been the players not caring since one on one meetings about who was coming back had been held before thd high point game and the guys just didnt care. i am glad i not the only one who questions this guys ability to coach because this team has talent and it is a shame that they guys get all the blame. as i said earlier dunton sign off on every on of these guys scholarships. oh by the way there were two top 50 recruiting classes in here i think.(last 4 years) so enough of no talent talk, you can beat high point, winthrop but you have no talent, give me a break. about talent, you have lu graduates coaching and recruiting from foreign lands and none of these guys end up at libety. whats up with that. listen as an earlier poster said, dunton has lobbied for this position ever since he was assistant to meyer. in fact the phone calls that were made to people about meyers inability to coach by dunton is ledgendary and documented. and he demands loyalty from his players and staff. please. also all the players that leave are not bad apples they are just tired of the continuous mediocrity of duntons coaching. remember the best year was due in part to transfers in from bob davis program and left overs from hankinson. larry blair and deese being seniors together would have been great. still has anyone figured out why deese really left. you are loyal fans, just dont let the wool be pulled over your eyes, by a guy whoi has said he has this job as long as he wants it. as i stated earlier it will never be his fault that the program is not going well. show me one time that has ever come out of his mouth. lastly, congrat. to russell for making all academic team. he is a great kid and deserves better. no more posts ever by me who has known this man for 20 years. its to0 painful.

[Hold My Own]

He's BACCCCKKKK!!!!

Welcome back man, although I like your other name more

let's not talk about lobbying, b/c we still have former coach's getting on here trying to start things for "unknown reasons" It's time to just let it all go...we really must have something in the water around here b/c it seems very few are able to "let it all go"....if it takes stepping away from the program until changes are made then by all means do it, Maybe it's just me and I'm the idiot, and I should start bashing all the Coach's up at LU that aren't getting it done...but it's just amazing how much pride some people would have to swallow in order to

A. Post under their normal name
B. Not post as a "LU Staffer" when they're thousands of miles away and haven't been employed by LU for almost 10 years
C. Actually have a face to face with someone actually employed by LU that they have a problem with...maybe that's to much to ask, and you know what things really have changed sine the Bible times and that stuff really doesn't apply any more...so continue with your ways guys, continue

Ohh, and distance isn't an excuse either b/c you could PM an number of us and get the correct phone #'s needed in order to confront your opposition

[Sly Fox]

MDIVIVVY - You know you are welcome on here and your feelings deserve just as much of a voice as anyone else's. Frankly I hope you stick around. I built this board to welcome all viewpoints as long as it doesn't get personal (as it appears our guest that allegedly is intheknow seems to be flirting with).

As this board grows there will be more & more divergent perspectives. Frankly I like that it will begin to reflect the entire LU community. Not everyone at Liberty is on board with everything that goes down in our Athletic Department. Back on the old board frankly I was one of those calling for Karcher to leave. I don't believe it is is necessarily wrong to question what is happening particularly when expectations are not met. But it needs to be done in a fashion that is in keeping with our school's mission and image.

All that said I would hope everyone tries to keep our testimony in mind when posting. We have plenty of visitors on this board and I don't want to have to be embarassed for anyone. We can have spirited dialogue without getting carried away.

I think everyone probably knows by now how much I despise these threads. But you'll notice I have never taken one of them down despite lobbying some to do just that. Take the legendary coaching thread for instance. Please.

[TIMSCAR20]

ba da bump

[Stevev]

Well said Sly. It is all about having fun and expressing our opinions freely, honestly, and openly. As long as we all agree to shake hands in the end if I could be there and not hold grudges.

[A.G.]

Is it me or is there really a Jeff vs Randy mentality around this place? Now, I've talked to many people who share many of the sentiments mentioned by InTheKnow and others--enough that it is a bit worrisome. I can't believe and won't believe that Coach D is truely the despicable human being that some portray him as and as one who had a major hand in the Great November Purge. A coach that has the passion that Coach D has for LU deserves our support for at least one sub-par season, and I think we've done a pretty good job of that, this year. My prayer is that next season will fullfill the promise I think that it will.

[Stevev]

I don't have a problem with that. I hope that Dunton can make the right moves in the offseason to at least bring us to a competitive and respectable level. He might be on the right track to do just that. Everyone needs a second chance every now and then.

[MDIVIVVY]

Look, I've completly lost perspeuctive here. Thank you brothers on both side of the issue for putting up with my stupidity. Win, Lose, I don't care. If basketball is what gets me impassioned, then I'm already missing the point. I hope in the future that I truly keep what is truly important in perspective. Hopefully we're all brothers in Christ on this board, and how could I not be more blessed than to have Bro's that I can talk sports with while having the same beliefs. That truly awesome blessing to have you guys of all viewpoints on this board. While I may become discouraged about things going on in our athletics programs, it is good to know that thier are alumni (which I will soon become, AGAIN) that still care about their school. Praise God for you brothers. As far as discussing this topic goes, I'm done. Let's move on to something else, like who the women are going to play, or talking about Dr. Caner's upcoming "Installation"

OUT AND GOD BLESS

Donald
PS. If you ever want to chat... IM name is collegedon. Always nice to here from my "elders" as ite were

[PAmedic]

wow- take a couple hours off and this thread goes nuts!

I'm just glad to see the increase in activity- and the obvious passion for LU sports. We'll never see the day when everyone agrees- but one thing is for certain- disagreement doesn't make us enemies. We all want the same thing here- success for LU athletics and, more importantly, in the personal lives of these kids.

I'm glad to see all the new members, and those of you that are finding your way over here from the other board.

Lets keep the ball rolling- I'm looking forward to next year. And as Coach D himself has said, if things don't turn around in another year or so, he needs to be held accountable. I'm confident better days are ahead- and soon!

[Hold My Own]

AG, you're correct that is the case simply b/c there are some people who would do back flips if he was to come back, and that's OK...I think it's important that we take Scars attitude towards everything...he has relationships with both....I'm not asking people to become friends with both or whatever, but I think it's wrong to ask for someones head when deep down it's not b/c of wins and losses its b/c in the pit of your stomach you don't agree with something that he has done....that's when it's important to meet with the person b/c it's deeper than just performance

but let's not get into great details about former coach's and their involvement at LU, please guys that's one can of worms not many want to open

I hope that Dunton can make the right moves in the off season to at least bring us to a competitive and respectable level.

That's a great attitude to have and I hope we mean it, but my problem is what is "competitive" and "respectable" b/c to me that would include a 2nd place finish, 1st place, and 2nd...b/c I dont care who you are you cant say that's not being competitive.....so let's not say all these warm and fuzzy things now and if we finish 2nd or 3rd in the next 2 years and we're still asking for heads...but I do like the attitudes that are expressed right now

[A.G.]

Great points, my young Jedi knight! You have to admire Scar for being in the middle of it all, yet having the professionalism to stay out of the fray in these discussions. It must be tough on him. Yes, better days are ahead--and since this is "next year" (since "last" season is now done), I think all is well. Coach D sums it up in the final lines of Chris' article this AM:

After Blair, Liberty's cupboard was bare

By Chris Lang
Lynchburg News & Advance
March 3, 2006

Larry Blair's leadership role didn't end when the buzzer sounded at the end of the Flames' season-ending, 93-52 loss at Winthrop Tuesday.

In a smallish interview room at Winthrop Coliseum, he had to take over as Flames' point guard Evan Risher struggled to find an answer to the question of what went wrong in the 2005-06 season.

Instead of leaving his teammate hung out to dry, Blair jumped in and broke the silence, offering an explanation.

It was a fitting moment. Blair came to the rescue, much like he did in Liberty's four wins this season against Division I teams. Blair averaged 30 points in those victories, none of which came easily.

Blair was the one breath of life in an otherwise miserable season. The Flames finished 7-23, their worst record since going 5-25 in 2001-02. They went 4-23 against Division I teams and were winless on the road.

Liberty was dealt a bad hand before the season even started when forward Rashad Robinson and guard David Dees left school. Elijah Miller was booted from the team. Freshman forward Tyler Baker had to redshirt due to a nagging foot injury.

Blair was defiant though when asked if that attrition played a role in Liberty's struggles. Though the losses clearly hurt, Blair wouldn't use them as an excuse.

"You can't play with the players you don't have," Blair said. "I have a lot of trust in my teammates. It was just a tough road. We struggled with inexperience."

Blair was the Flames' top offensive option and the only Liberty player to average double figures in scoring. He had six 30-point games. And if he was unspectacular, Liberty had very little chance to win.

But the games in which he flat took over - his showings against High Point, Winthrop and UNC Asheville at home were examples - he showed why he was one of the best players in the Big South.

"He's a better person than he is a player," Dunton said. "You never see this guy act like a prima donna when he's frustrated.

"He is the best player in the Big South. There is no one who can guard him one-on-one. He is unguardable."

The problem was that Blair rarely got help, and one-man shows generally tend to falter at some point because opponents wise up and throw their entire defensive package at that one man.

Blair did well against trick defenses all season, but he couldn't win games alone.

Liberty had no presence in the post, meaning it was easy for opponents to defend the perimeter heavily. That made it difficult for Liberty's guards to get dribble penetration for drives and dishes.

As a result, Liberty's offense was generally stagnant. The Flames scored 60 or fewer points 13 times.

Along the way, though, many Liberty players learned that they didn't show enough of a commitment in the offseason. Risher, for one, pleaded guilty as charged.

"Coach talked to us about that before the game and all through the season," Risher said. "He said you don't want to go through the season, and when the season was over, say 'what if?'

"What if I did this? Now, I wish I was in the gym for a couple more hours shooting. I wish I could have done a lot of things differently. I'm going to work on shooting and just being in the gym every day, getting better."

There are reinforcements on the way. Forwards Armon Jones and Alex McClean will have to make an immediate impact in the post, and explosive Providence College transfer Dwight Brewington will be eligible after the fall semester ends.

Fans seem to be willing to give Dunton a pass for one really bad season, but impatience will grow if Liberty doesn't show improvement next year. The Flames have just one winning season in the last nine years.

"Everything is going to be evaluated," Dunton said. "We've got young men that need to show responsibility to the program. We're not playing basketball for intramurals at Liberty. We're playing to win."

[TIMSCAR20]

I must say that it has been difficult at times being in the middle of any kind of conflict. Conflict is a part of life and as men and more importantly as Christian men we must approach it head on. Growing up in Philly, I had my share of conflicts with people that you wouldn't want to ever meet in a dark alley. I have seen crimes committed in front of my eyes. I can tell you stories that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up so this kind of conflict pales in comparison. You have to have proper perspective. The fact is that Jeff Meyer was the only coach in America that was willing to give me a chance to play division 1 basketball and no matter what happens that remains a fact. Randy Dunton was my coach for 1 season, my co-worker for a few and we have maintained a good friendship ever since. I will support whoever is in the position of head coach at Liberty, my alma-mater and I believe this administration can advance this program to where we would all like to see it or even further than what we would imagine. I have never felt any pressure from either Jeff nor Randy to choose sides or anything like that. They are both professional and will proceed with their own lives and goals. I would love to see both sides come to terms but hey if it doesn't happen, life goes on. Now some will perceive this as being an apologist for Dunton or what have you but that is fine too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. Notice I have never called for any kind of censorship of anyone on this board but like Sly I would like to keep personal conflicts out of the forums and keep the focus on our athletics in general.

[Sly Fox]

Well stated, Scar. Perhaps you should be running for office instead of looking for another project.

[Chris Lang]

Just to share some perspective here ...

The team I covered last year, Northern Arizona, was 4-10 in the Big Sky and missed the six-team league tournament for the first time in nine years. The Lumberjacks' head coach, Mike Adras, seemed to be as polarazing of a figure as Dunton is here. They were calling for his head on a platter. He had one year left in his contract, and he certainly was going to be evaluated on what happened this year. Certain players didn't like him and didn't want to play for him, but they stuck with it and tried to make it work. Heading into the offseason, they lost just one key piece (the starting point guard).

I see a LOT of similarities in the two situations (though I never really could get an honest pulse about how the players felt about RD, just wasn't around in practice enough). Last year, to me, felt like an anomaly in that program, kind of the way I feel about this year with Liberty. So many things went wrong, from the defections right before the season, the injury to Baker and the absolute recruiting whiffs that were Bigby and Eck, that I'm willing to just kind of shake my head and move on. I don't sense a sinister downturn in the program. I sense a bad season in which a million things went wrong. I'm with Scar for the most part. I really don't think Liberty is THAT far away from being a good team in the Big South.

So back to the Lumberjacks. NAU went 12-2 this year, won 20 games and took down the Big Sky regular season title. They'll host the tournament semifinals and finals Tuesday-Wednesday of next week. So a major turnaround is possible. All I'm saying is that Flames fans probably shouldn't give up on this team just yet. Yeah, it was a brutal season. But the seeds for a turnaround are in place and it can happen.

[jcmanson]

Great post SCAR and Chris.

I feel the same way as you do Chris concerning next year and the years to come. I believe that we should and will be in the top 3 of the conference next year barring any major injuries or suspensions. What pains me is the waiting. Waiting 7 months just for the guys to get on the court, to see how they will shape up.

[Guest]

Karcher: 6 seasons... 1 winning, 1 (.500), 4 losing.

Dunton: 5 seasons... 1 winning, 4 losing.

Apples and oranges... uh, maybe, maybe not, but mediocrity is mediocrity.

There is more to life than competing in the Big South... Karcher could have won the Big South every year but if he would have gone 4-7 overall he would have still been run out of town. We have to shoot higher than just being a "good" team in a bad conference.

Also, would we have even had the one winning season if not for the two transfers Davis brought with him? Just some things to think about. I have nothing against cheerleaders but lets not cloud our judgment and over inflate the success.

[Chris Lang]

Guest, I agree to a certain extent. Liberty has only had one winning season in the last nine years. Ultimately, winning in the Big South should be the goal, but I don't think it's a given any more that people can enter league play at like 3-9 (hi UNCA) and get hot in league and win. The Big South seems to have gotten a lot better. Winthrop will still be good next year. So will Coastal. Birmingham and Chuck South will compete. High Point was very young.

At some point, the schedule needs to be set up better. They went a month without playing at home. As much as Dunton noted that his team was worn out by the stretch of 7 games in 15 days, he was the one that scheduled Longwood on a Monday between a conference home game and the toughest league trip of the season to Birmingham. That's just nuts.

I don't want to sound like an apologist, because I'm not. I'm an observer. Whether or not Liberty wins is irrelevant to me. I still have a job to do either way. I'm just going on gut feeling, and my gut feeling is that Liberty had a lot of adversity this season to overcome, and they weren't equipped to do it. Simply not enough talent. Next year will be telling. And as much as people want to think McClean and Jones will be saviors, one is a JC transfer who will be a year removed from playing competitive basketball and one is a freshman who's never played a minute of DI ball. That's a lot to ask of those two.

It will be interesting for sure.