[ballah09]

Is she a 10 prospect? We don't have any scholarships for next year. I know that RD went to some WBB games a couple of years ago, but I don't think recently.

yeah. from ESPN Emilee Dunton PG 5'6" Brookville H.S. (VA) Rank:PG #88 Grade: 74 Undeclared

[SuperJon]

Coach Dunton was at a few men's games this year. I'm pretty sure he was at the Clemson game. I also know he was at the VMI game at VMI.

As for his daughter and coming to play at Liberty, we're recruiting over her abilities so even if she were interested, I don't think that we would be. My understanding is that if she plays at the Division I level it'll be at the lower-tier Big South/SoCon level.

[thepostman]

You guys are delusional if you think Barber is a bad AD or that RD is a legimiate D1 BB coach, If he was, he would have a job. Good coaches are always in demand.

Wow. Just wow. So I guess it takes less than a legitimate DI coach to win the Big South, eh? If that's the case, what does that make Dale, Ritchie, Duggar, Bart Lundy, Cliff Ellis, Greg Nibbert, Scott Cherry, and every other coach to come thru this league and not win a title? Less than not legitimate?

Get a grip. He finished top half of the league all but one year. He's a legitimate coach that was given the opportunity to do well for himself coaching his daughter and some other very talented high school girls in a MUCH lower pressure environment.

And we wonder why "checkers" and friends always come back...

I ask this in all honesty..not just to you, but to anybody that may know...has he been even approached about another DI job? Because if not then there must be things the rest of the college basketball community knows about RD that makes them think twice...

I will say what I always say...I liked RD...I liked his fire and liked the way he coached and honestly I probably would've cursed a time or two with some of the bonehead played some of his teams would make from time to time...but towards the end it was clear he had lost control of his team. I witnessed players talking back to him and just not caring and anytime things like that happen consistently its clear the coach has lost the team. It does not make it right that the players just give up on a coach, but it happens and in DI athletics it makes sense to move on...his contract was up and it was decided not to renew...

TTL you must know more then anybody, since you are a consistent poster on this board, that the reason people get so upset at posters like checkers is that they only make an appearance when bad things happen...if things are going well they won't say anything positive and be happy for the program. That is wrong and that is why people get so upset....

I have rambled a lot in this thread so hopefully some of it makes some sense....

[ToTheLeft]

I understand the frustration when they only come around during bad times, but I also don't like the fact that the people on the majority side feel the need to insult/attack/belittle the former coach.

[thepostman]

I understand the frustration when they only come around during bad times, but I also don't like the fact that the people on the majority side feel the need to insult/attack/belittle the former coach.

I agree with that

[Hold My Own]

Very few on this board are in a position to answer a lot of these questions intelligently. I used to speak to him quite often but that is not the case now. I do know he's been to a few interviews and theres always someone on his radar that is looking and that he's speaking with. To be honest does it really matter now though? He's in the past, he brought us half of our total championships for which I'm very thankful but to keep looking at the past keeps you from moving forward. We need to put this energy towards positive support for Coach Layer and our future....things we can control.

[olldflame]

I've participated enthusiatically in these discussions, and make no apology for it. My goal is for everyone to look at all of the facts as they are rather than just those that favor their side of things.

A lot has been made about RDs success in the BSC regular season. Let's look at the numbers. RD served as head coach or interum head coach for a total of 6 seasons. Here were his in-conference records those seasons:

97-98 (interum).......... 5-7 not sure of seeding. Probably 5th
02-03 ...................... 8-8 2nd seed
03-04 ...................... 12-4 1st seed
04-05 ...................... 11-5 2nd seed
05-06 ...................... 3-13 8th seed
06-07 ...................... 8-6 3rd seed

Overall ..................... 47-43
Winning percentage .522
Basically 2 very good seasons (one ending in a trip to the dance and the other in a first round loss to the 7th seed), 3 mediocre seasons with a combined .500 record, and one horrendous season.

Last 3 years under RMK and Layer:

07-08 ....................... 7-7 4th seed
08-09 ....................... 12-6 3rd seed
09-10 ....................... 10-8 6th seed

overall ...................... 30-21
Winning percentage .588

Them's the facts guys.

[olldflame]

I went back and added the seedings to the post above so they could be seen next to the won-lost records. I think it's important to see that in different years the same record can result in very different seedings.

I'm going from memory because I can't find the complete standings from past years, but I'm pretty sure in 03 Winthrop only had a couple of losses (if that) and there was a 4 way tie for 2nd at 8-8. We won the tiebreakers to get the 2nd seed. In 07 an 8-6 record got us a 3 and in 08 7-7 got us a 4. On the other hand, in 09 12-6 was only good for a 3, and this year 10-8 only got us a 6. The seeding often comes down as much to how other teams do as how you do yourself.

Hopefully this puts checker's infamous 2-1-2- (omit 8 ) -3 in a bit better perspective.

[jcmanson]

You also have to factor in the conference tournament since at our level that’s the most important time of the season.

RD went 4-4, losing to a lower seeded team 3 times in 5 years
RMK & Layer have gone 2-3, never losing to a lower seeded team in 3 years

[olldflame]

You're right of course about the tournament being the most important thing manson. I dug up all the regular season stuff because that is what the JB haters/RD fans always want to point to to show how successful those years were, focusing on the seedings only without mentioning the won-lost records. In fact the regular season performance in conference wasn't that great either. Average conference record, rounded off......... 8-7

It's also tougher to get a high seed in our current format, where we have 10 teams, but only 8 seeds. This year we finished ahead of 4 teams and had a winning record, but only tied for 5th and got a 6th seed. At times in the past, with an 8 team conference, if you finished ahead of 4 other teams you got a 4 seed.

One other little thing in Layer's defense. He lost his first tournament game to the eventual champion, and we were far more competetive against them playing on the road in Rock Hill than the number 1 and 2 seeds were on a neutral court.

[ATrain]

I guess it's a good thing you posted those facts. I happened to notice that in 4 of 5 years of his actual tenure as head coach, RD put us in the top 3 in the league. Call me crazy, but I care about our seeding going into the tournament WAY more than the winning %. Now, as for the tournament results, he wasn't stellar, but he brought us a championship. Tough to compare I guess.

Well since we're throwing some stats out, I figured I'd mention a few in non-conference DI wins:
97-98 (Interim year)
Wins: Elon, UVA, Florida A&M, Belmont
Losses: Maine, WF, Texas, VT, Norfolk State, Belmont, ECU
4-7

02-03
Wins: W&M, UNH, WCU, VMI, Florida Atlantic
Losses: VMI, McNeese State, Iowa, UVA
5-4

03-04
Wins: Canisius, Chattanooga
Losses: Miami (Ohio), W&M, ODU, Arkansas State, Iowa State, Arizona, Seton Hall, Duke, Valparaiso, St. John's
2-10

04-05
Wins: Marist
Losses: UNH, Ark. State, WCU, ODU, NC State, UNCG, Miami (Ohio), Seton Hall
1-8

05-06
Wins: None
Losses: UVA, Kentucky, Longwood, Buffalo, Lipscomb, Miss. State, Mt. St. Mary's, McNeese State
0-8

06-07
Wins: ECU, St. Francis PA, Longwood
Losses: Longwood, St. Francis PA, Buffalo, Lipscomb, BYU, Seton Hall, Oral Roberts, Florida, Niagara
3-8

Overall DI Non-conference record: 15-45 (.250)
Other notes: 1 loss in NCAA first round (St. John's), OT needed to beat D-III Shenandoah in Lynchburg, loss an exhibition to D-II Barton.

07-08
Wins: ECU, Longwood, Niagara, Presby (1st year D1), Campbell
Losses: San Diego State, Fresno State, Portland, Kentucky, Campbell, VT, Longwood, George Mason
5-8

08-09
Wins: UVA, W&M, George Mason, Northern Colorado, USC-Upstate, Rider
Losses: Clemson, DePaul, St. Louis, ODU, JMU
6-5

09-10
Wins: Mississippi Valley State, Tennessee State
Losses: George Mason, Clemson, ODU, Notre Dame, Northwestern, UCF, Bufalo
2-7

Overall 13-20 (.390)
Other notes: No non-DI losses, 1 win in CIT v. Rider, 1 loss in CIT v. JMU

Now what does all that mean? NOTHING. Whats done is done, we've thrown out all the stats we can throw, and ultimately Dale Layer is still the coach, Jeff Barber is still the AD, the athletic department as a whole has risen, men's bball had problems before JB and after JB (though of different natures), and moving forward we need to support Dale Layer and hope he can build the program into what we want it to be.

[TylerBakersGonnaBGreat]

Well look what I found haha
I am not going to read all this and get all fired up and ticked off at someone for no reason so all I will say are 2 things:
1. Emilee would not come to Liberty if they were recruiting her.
2. Simple facts (off the top of my head), The Big South when RD was here was a MUCH tougher conference. Torrell Martin, Craig Bradshaw, Jenkins, I mean they were so good Taj was coming off the bench for them. They were GOOD. High Point, although they had a dumb coach, had AZ, Jefferson, and a lot of other really good players. VMI had Reggie (say what you want but hes killing in the league right now) the holmes, Murrer (sp?), and I want to say a couple others that I just cant remember right now. Coastal had Leisure (again sp?) Mario and a few other really good players. UNCA had 2 7+ footers, and Smithson who was really good as well.

Im sure there are a few guys Im forgetting here and there, but the point is we were competing with those teams at a high level.

Like I said Im not going to argue over this stuff, just want to present those points, and if anyone already said these things, I apologize.

[olldflame]

I won't disagree that the BSC has slipped a bit TBGBG. BTW, over half the players you listed were still around in RMKs first year

[TylerBakersGonnaBGreat]

I won't disagree that the BSC has slipped a bit TBGBG. BTW, over half the players you listed were still around in RMKs first year

Not the BEST players

[panfan01]

oldflame,

I can relate to the use of old in your username but the 14 and 4 record that you show as Coach Duntos record for the 03/04 season was most likely 12 and 4 since there were only 16 conference games.

TylerBaker,

That dumb coach from High Point was 36 and 24 from the 03/04 season thru the 06/07 season which are the years that you can compare his record to that of Coach Duntons(32 and 28). Coach Marshall was the only coach who had a better record than Coach Lundy during those years.

[TylerBakersGonnaBGreat]

TylerBaker,

That dumb coach from High Point was 36 and 24 from the 03/04 season thru the 06/07 season which are the years that you can compare his record to that of Coach Duntons(32 and 28). Coach Marshall was the only coach who had a better record than Coach Lundy during those years.

Oh ok... So you must have won a Big South Championship during that time? Oh wait... The Coach with the worst record of the 3 beat High Point in the Championship by how many? Wasnt it somewhere between 35-40?

At the end of the day, I respect Lundy cause dude could recruit, but when it mattered he didnt win. IMO AZ was the best player in Big South history and never went to the dance. With those rosters he used to have theres not reason for what happened.

[olldflame]

You are correct about 03-04 panfan, which quite frankly makes RD's conference record even less impressive. 4 games over .500 in 6 years. I'll go back and edit my earlier post tonight.

[g-webb1994]

Just my .02, but you guys have the right coach in Layer in place. Y'all should focus on that and forget this petty bickering about Dutton, McKay, etc.

I'm looking forward to NOT having to talk about Scruggs and his 15 year reign of terror, and seeing a new fresh look to our program starting with a new coach within the next 10 days.

[TylerBakersGonnaBGreat]

At the end of the day, none of this matters...


... And It could be worse... Ritchie McKay could still be the coach at Liberty.

[panfan01]

Let me say first that g-webb is certainly right about your currant coach. As for tylerbaker, let me point out that Lundy losing to LU at the Vines in his first year at HP was OK. You are talking about HP in 03/04, which was a school that was bad to look at, a bb program that was poorly funded, under staffed, had won 26 games in the previous 5 years, hard to recruit to and could not, even remotely, be consider a bonafide D1 program.

As much as I liked AZ Reid, and appreciate all of his accomplishments I believe that Reggie Williams was the best player in the BSC for at least 3 out of his 4 years. AZ was just stronger willed than most and that "dumb coach " put him in situations that helped him to be successful. Also keep in mind that if not for Coach Marshall, Coach Lundy would probably have won some league titles and during those 4 years Lundy did not have the talent that Marshall had at WU.

[SuperJon]

If not for being fat I could have a date this Friday night. Stop making up excuses. Lundy had some of the most talent and couldn't get it done. His best attribute was blowing leads under two minutes.

[LUconn]

I think it's funny that panfan is like the checkers of the HPU world. I would love love love to have Lundy as an assistant here. He assembled some serious talent.

[panfan01]

SuperJon, I'm sorry that you are over weight and that it has affected your social life. The only advice that I can think to give you is to eat at Subway and keep in mind that there is someone out there for everyone.

[LUconn]

If not for being fat I could have a date this Friday night.

[vthokies20]

Superjon is the Robert Gibbs of the jb administration. He is lives to shine the expensive mediocrity we have produced.

Old Flame wasn't RD the first coach to get us a ACC win vs the University of Virginia.

The RD facts(according to BSC records) are that in:

02-03 8-6 2nd
03-04 12-4 1st
04-05 11-5 2nd Where would we have been if Woodson and Williams had not been injured?
06-07 8-6 3rd
39-21 65% winning

yes he decided to remove Elijah Miller in August of 05 and must wear the 3-13, but it wasn't and is not the typical RD year. And we were LOADED for 07-08. Do you seriously think RD would not have been at the top of the Big South. That team would have looked like this Murray St team and guess what... one of his is on that team.

So the JB pundits say we are better off with the 4,3,6 finishes. The BIG South is not close to the years of RD yet the pundits boast. When we get some talent on the floor that can do better than a 4th-3rd-6th finish there may be need for a debate. Until then it is just Robert Gibbs spinning away.