[bluejacket]

Personally, I'd go a different route. I've always been an advocate of bringing a guy in who has worked for years as a HC at a powerhouse NAIA/D2 level. DL came closest to that but he had stops in between. You want hungry and grateful, get someone with success at that level with those limited resources and having to deal with LU type rules, you can go a long way.

+1.

We don't need guys who are at big programs, and hiring assistants doesn't seem to be working for us. We need to hire head coaches from the lower divisions of college basketball. Guys who have experience winning with less resources. The big name assistants game doesn't work. Go and find a head coach, at a small school, who has incredible aspirations and can win right away.

So you would rather go for a guy like Ryan Looney at Seattle Pacific? Greg Tonagel is still at Indiana Wesleyan (played at Valparaiso).

[olldflame]

My last post about Joyce got me to thinking about which assistants were (or at least may have been) the primary recruiters for our signees this year. I am including Bonds and Allen, even though they won't be in a Liberty uni.

Brian Joyce: Primary recruiter for Moller and Dembley.

Vince Walden: Andoh for sure. Based on the fact he recruited NC, I would say Allen as well.

Omar Mance: Reid and Bonds. Layer apparently also played a big role with Bonds.

Dale Layer: "Recruiting" of transfers is a different process, and almost always involves the head coach. I'm going to give him credit for Johnson & Johnson as well as a share of Bonds.

That leaves Talbert, Maxwell, and the walkon Hoffman who I can really only speculate on. I suspect Joyce played a role with Talbert based on geography. Maxwell committed right after attending our camp. Hoffman was in fact recruited before being offered his preferred walkon spot. I think he was seen by our staff at a HS tourney in AZ, which would lead me to believe Mance was involved.

I admit there is some guesswork going on here, so if anyone has better information, please enlighten us.

[Purple Haize]

Our current head coach fits that bill. Our top assistant has 20+ successful years at the juco level.

Did you not read my post? I said we was closest but not quite fits the bill

[R i]

I tend to skim through any thing that is labled in red with "Purple Haize"

I kid. I just think its insane to try and replace our coach at this stage in the game. Lets play this season and revisit the Should Dale be fired topic again next April.

[TIMSCAR20]

My last post about Joyce got me to thinking about which assistants were (or at least may have been) the primary recruiters for our signees this year. I am including Bonds and Allen, even though they won't be in a Liberty uni.

Brian Joyce: Primary recruiter for Moller and Dembley.

Vince Walden: Andoh for sure. Based on the fact he recruited NC, I would say Allen as well.

Omar Mance: Reid and Bonds. Layer apparently also played a big role with Bonds.

Dale Layer: "Recruiting" of transfers is a different process, and almost always involves the head coach. I'm going to give him credit for Johnson & Johnson as well as a share of Bonds.

That leaves Talbert, Maxwell, and the walkon Hoffman who I can really only speculate on. I suspect Joyce played a role with Talbert based on geography. Maxwell committed right after attending our camp. Hoffman was in fact recruited before being offered his preferred walkon spot. I think he was seen by our staff at a HS tourney in AZ, which would lead me to believe Mance was involved.

I admit there is some guesswork going on here, so if anyone has better information, please enlighten us.

I don't really keep track of or care about which coach recruits which player but I can tell you with 100% certainty that Walden recruited AC Reid. I was there for his campus visit, talked to his parents and I will say that getting Reid was a virtual lock based on the long term relationship Vince has with Ace (the dad).

[bballfan84]

you guys need to adjust your expectations of the program a little..

[TDDance234]

you guys need to adjust your expectations of the program a little..

The NCAAT appearance set us back 5 years. It bought Layer and company an additional 2-3 seasons and probably shouldn't have plus cycling another 3 years through the next HC's roster shaping.

[Purple Haize]

I tend to skim through any thing that is labled in red with "Purple Haize"

I kid. I just think its insane to try and replace our coach at this stage in the game. Lets play this season and revisit the Should Dale be fired topic again next April.

I tend to ignore posters who have only initials

I never said we should fire Layer. I was just commenting on my thoughts on hiring basketball coaches here at LU

[Bigsouthking]

PH -- Name 5 NAIA/D2 'guys' that could come possibly be candidates for the LU coaching position, right now, your the AD, whats your short list?

BTW -- Layer dominated the D2 ranks in the 90's at Queens. so IMO that D2/NAIA theory hasn't worked so far here.

We broke the bank on RMK, like Blue jacket sorta suggested in a big name, big time person, and that flamed out quickly.

look at the department as a whole, most successful programs are Track & Field, Baseball or Golf. Track coach is a lifer, baseball has a bulldog recruiter, & golf has an alum. Those guys aren't just 'happy' to make money coaching at LU. They are girding it out and making LU big time in each of their respected sports.
What works?

[bluejacket]

We broke the bank on RMK, like Blue jacket sorta suggested in a big name, big time person, and that flamed out quickly.

McKay was a known commodity that should have been avoided. However, there are excellent assistants that can be hired for what we are paying or up to $400,000. For one example, Shaka Smart started at VCU with a base of $350,000. Brad Stevens made $330,417 in 2008 at Butler. We aren't breaking the bank on coaches, but our ROI is horrendous.

[ballah09]

Liberty needs to get a young, motivated, energetic asst. coach from a successful program.

like Gardner-webb with Holtman (Ohio), Winthrop with Marshall (CofC), VCU w/ Smart (Florida), etc..

d2/naia is a huge jump and a big risk, you don't see many programs hardly doing it even in the low mid majors.

[Purple Haize]

PH -- Name 5 NAIA/D2 'guys' that could come possibly be candidates for the LU coaching position, right now, your the AD, whats your short list?

BTW -- Layer dominated the D2 ranks in the 90's at Queens. so IMO that D2/NAIA theory hasn't worked so far here.

We broke the bank on RMK, like Blue jacket sorta suggested in a big name, big time person, and that flamed out quickly.

look at the department as a whole, most successful programs are Track & Field, Baseball or Golf. Track coach is a lifer, baseball has a bulldog recruiter, & golf has an alum. Those guys aren't just 'happy' to make money coaching at LU. They are girding it out and making LU big time in each of their respected sports.
What works?

Stay tuned for my list. While I did say DL was the closest to what I was looking for, I'm not sure you could say he 'dominated' the D2 ranks. He made the Tournament twice reaching the Sweet 16 his first time. Solid but not dominate. IMO, THAT was the time to get him. Or someone like him now.

[BJWilliams]

Why not take a flyer on somebody like Dave Macedo at Virginia Wesleyan

[Purple Haize]

Why not take a flyer on somebody like Dave Macedo at Virginia Wesleyan

Thats a solid suggestion but ODAC to D1 is big jump. Going from a no scholarship situation to a full compliment is a big adjustment

The reason I think this would work is because let's face it, the Big South sucks. And quite frankly, so do we. This will make the adjustment a lot easier on a coach making the move up. More so than an assistant moving down.
So here is a quick list. By no means thorough or definitive but I don't have the time or resources of an athletic department. Not is this an endorsement of any of them

Bill Czech - Hope International University
John Moore - Westmont (hey, by name alone he'd fit in!)
Justin Leslie - Azusa Pacific
David Arseneault - Grinnell. Hey it'd get us attention, win us some games and make VMI look like The 4 Corners
Rick Croy - Cal Baptist
Sam Harris - Trevecca

I'm sure there are more. I had a couple of others in mind but think they are close to retirement.

[BJWilliams]

I would concur that its a big adjustment. he has shown great success in VA Beach taking VWC to the NCAA many years including winning it all in I believe 06

That would be quite a show in the vines with "the system" from Grinnell

[bluejacket]

That would be quite a show in the vines with "the system" from Grinnell

Are you serious? That's a gimmick which works when a school with 1600 students plays Bible colleges with 300 students in the middle of Iowa.....

[olldflame]

That would be quite a show in the vines with "the system" from Grinnell

Are you serious? That's a gimmick which works when a school with 1600 students plays Bible colleges with 300 students in the middle of Iowa.....

They had a good record last year, but when faced with a solid St. Norbert team from their own confrence they went 0-3. there is a reason why with all the buzz they have generated, their coach has never been able to land a better job. Everyone knows it's a gimmic which won't work against better competition.

[Bigsouthking]

Here's the thing with the theory on D-3/NAIA/D-2 guys.....

example Va Wesleyan -- guy does a great job, in a prime location = #757 athletes for recruiting, etc. -- also they can get marginal, not great students into school where other teams in their league CAN NOT get those students into school, which makes the playing field skewed.

So its hard to say how good a coach really is when the playing field isn't the same. IMO

[bballfan84]

you guys need to adjust your expectations of the program a little..

The NCAAT appearance set us back 5 years. It bought Layer and company an additional 2-3 seasons and probably shouldn't have plus cycling another 3 years through the next HC's roster shaping.

I am more referring to the expectations that LU should be a mid major team..its just not happening.

[bluejacket]

What do you think our biggest obstacle to becoming a mid major team, bballfan84? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just curious to see what you think.

[bballfan84]

Christian University..plain and simple

With the exception of the 50 big time schools its soo hard to get quality players and we have a much smaller recruiting base than all the other schools because we are a Christian university. I think Layer has done a terrible job and I think Liberty should be able to put together a really competitive team that should finish in the top 3 every year in the Big South, maybe every couple years we put together a really good team..say in the 100-150 rpi but I think that is our ceiling. I just don't see how me ever become a mid major..just not realistic in my opinion.

[Purple Haize]

Here's the thing with the theory on D-3/NAIA/D-2 guys.....

example Va Wesleyan -- guy does a great job, in a prime location = #757 athletes for recruiting, etc. -- also they can get marginal, not great students into school where other teams in their league CAN NOT get those students into school, which makes the playing field skewed.

So its hard to say how good a coach really is when the playing field isn't the same. IMO

That would be the same questions you'd have about an Assistant Coach coming in from a Big Time school. Sure you can recruit kids to 'fill in the blank' conference, but can you get those same kids in at LU.
That's why the quick list I put together answers the questions about bringing in kids who fit at LU.
Also, most smaller schools have tougher Academic standards than State schools

[Bigsouthking]

Here's the thing with the theory on D-3/NAIA/D-2 guys.....

example Va Wesleyan -- guy does a great job, in a prime location = #757 athletes for recruiting, etc. -- also they can get marginal, not great students into school where other teams in their league CAN NOT get those students into school, which makes the playing field skewed.

So its hard to say how good a coach really is when the playing field isn't the same. IMO

That would be the same questions you'd have about an Assistant Coach coming in from a Big Time school. Sure you can recruit kids to 'fill in the blank' conference, but can you get those same kids in at LU.
That's why the quick list I put together answers the questions about bringing in kids who fit at LU.
Also, most smaller schools have tougher Academic standards than State schools

Also what I didn't add that disputes your argument is each D2/NAIA/D3 has different financial packages to give to kids, where everyone in D1 has a full ride. makes playing field even more skewed at the smaller levels.

[Bigsouthking]

Christian University..plain and simple

With the exception of the 50 big time schools its soo hard to get quality players and we have a much smaller recruiting base than all the other schools because we are a Christian university. I think Layer has done a terrible job and I think Liberty should be able to put together a really competitive team that should finish in the top 3 every year in the Big South, maybe every couple years we put together a really good team..say in the 100-150 rpi but I think that is our ceiling. I just don't see how me ever become a mid major..just not realistic in my opinion.

Totally false. BYU is a power mid major -- only so many moron ball players in America but they somehow get them and coach em up.

Liberty has one 3 titles in its short D1 tenure, with money, facilities it has know, the uniqueness of being Christian school, the sky is the limit. ......ye of little faith.

[Bigsouthking]

......ooops i meant Mormon not moron. my bad.