[Brokeback Flamer]

SJ... most of your prognosis has nothing to do with Christian Athletes.

I personally find it amazing that people with so little vision end up going to a school that didn't exist 35 years go. I find it amazing how people can look around the mountain and see all that has been done in under 4 decades and yet they still say things like "NEVER gonna happen". It's absolutely insane to me. It drives me nuts that so many people are okay with accepting the status quo and believing that things can't get better...that a Christian University is doomed to be second rate.

Liberty can make it happen and instead of going on and on about pointing out the obvious... this board (and our alumni base in general) would be better off if we use our brains and drum up ways to make things happen. The fact remains that there ARE great foundations to build on at LU... the BONES are great.

In just the last 5 years how many people would have thought that faith would get as much television play as it does today? How many people would have thought a movie about Jesus would have become one of the greatest grossing movies ever! Dana Kirpatrick would have just stopped her journey years ago if people gave her all the reasons why a WOMAN will never be one of most popular race car drivers on the circuit.

All I'm saying is this... Liberty CAN and WILL become a powerful D-1 school. AND it will do so while lifting up the name of Christ. I'm sorry for all of those who can only see short-sighted. I wish you were able to enjoy these years as the school and it's programs grow.

Okay... that felt better...

Remind me never to get on a plane to French Ghana with you, or consume any liquid resembling Fruit Punch.
All you say is true on the surface, but the devil is in the details. Less then 10 years ago they were going to close the school. The operating budget STILL staggers the revenue streams. We are absolutely brining more students in, but those nasty little unfunded scholarships are on the rise as well. Giving has been going up, and we are told "The University has never been in better shape" that is a leading statement.
I agree with SteveV (sorry Steve) but until the status quo changes on the mountain, NOTHING will change. Can we HONESTLY ever be a DIA football team? That is a great soundbite, but is it realistic. RD can say he wants to be a Top 50 Program in 5 years (or but are we going that direction?? I once heard a great man on campus say "We are who we are, the problem is everyone thinks we are or should be someone else"
We have ticked off alumni b/c they remeber sleeping 6 to a room in the old dorms, the registrars office and the broken promises. When there is a sustained pattern of those things turning around, then things will be different.

[SuperJon]

SJ... most of your prognosis has nothing to do with Christian Athletes.

How can you get off saying that? I'm a Christian. I was an athlete. I was around high school athletes who are Christians today, told them about my school, and they all laughed and said they'd never go there.

There are other things keeping athletes away. The dorms are one of them. The campus is another. There are a lot of other schools around the country that have either nicer dorms for athletes or nicer campuses as a whole.

To come to Liberty, someone is going to want to come to Liberty whether they're an athlete or not. It's going to be almost impossible to attract the top athletes, Christian or not, to Liberty.

The second I mention to someone that we can't watch Rated R movies they laugh at me and tell me I'm crazy. My parents even said that, and they're both Christians.

I accept these rules. I wanted to go to Liberty. It's going to be extremely hard to attract a top notch athlete, Christian or not, away from a secular school.

We aren't the most exciting university, no matter what they try to say. I enjoy Liberty, most of the time. I just can't justify how anyone can say that a top 150 athlete should come to Liberty, unless they would look at Liberty outside of athletics (if that makes sense).

[TallyW]

Brokeback and Steve:
I don't believe I ever made any statement that comes close to saying that the status quo is what will get us there. If you reread what I wrote you will see that I simply make the case that we have the foundation to do great things and we should talk about proactive solutions, not pointing out the obvious. You can't drive a car by looking in the rearview mirror. You can't lead that way either. If you're interested in seeing solutions and a better University, we have to change the culture of complainers and start thinking solutions-based discussion.


SJ:
I'm glad you're a Christian and welcome to the ranks of the rest of us who have played sports. That makes you average. Welcome to the club.
I don't knock your arguments based on who you are as a person... we don't know each other. I judge your statements on their merit.

Reasons we don't get people:

Horrible conference

[Three words: West Coast Conference]

Not many athletes want to be forced to take GNED 101, GNED 102, two semesters of Theology, Old Testament, New Testament, Evangelism, and Creation Studies. That's 8 classes that they wouldn't have to take at a secular school.

[[So what, many atheletes don't want to take ANY courses. That has nothing to do with the fact that we should be able to attract 10 of the top 200 atheletes each year between our major sports]]

The Liberty Channel is not great. The only time any student watches it is for a game.

[[Nothing gets better because everyone thinks it's great. Reread the posts on that topic. The point is that much of the infrastructure is there.]]

There are tons of Christians out there that can't stand Jerry Falwell.

[[Again, so what? Half of our sports teams in the last 10 years probably didn't even know him... who cares. That doesn't speak to whether or not we can get a handful of high-level talent]]

Lynchburg ain't the most exciting place in the world. [[Any number of college towns can be substituted there. That again doesn't address talent. Not everyone goes to NYC or L.A.]]

The Liberty Way [[It's gotten so much more relaxed, it's becomming less of an issue. It does deter some... but again we only need a handfull]]

I could go on. There's no way the top athletes will come here on a regular basis.

[['no way'. Wow... okay...]]

[SuperJon]

A lot of athletes don't want to take any classes. Yes, that is true. However, they don't want to have to take 8 EXTRA classes that they wouldn't have to take at other universities.

The Liberty way has gotten relaxed, but curfew, rated r movies, and even kissing a girl are still against the Liberty Way.

A lot of college towns are boring, yes, but you're telling me that Lynchburg is more exciting than Gainsville, Coral Gables, Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Winston-Salem, etc? You're crazy if you believe that.

The West Coast Conference is a lot more competitive with a higher level play than the Big South.

As for Jerry, anytime someone hears Liberty University they know it's Jerry's school. You're selling athletes short if you think they don't know who Jerry is. They just don't like him.

[PAmedic]

As for Jerry, anytime someone hears Liberty University they know it's Jerry's school. You're selling athletes short if you think they don't know who Jerry is. They just don't like him.

thats a pretty broad statement! you're not suggesting most athletes DON'T like the doc, are ya?

just curious- I never got that impression but I attended nearly 20 yrs ago, as SLY reminded me lately.

[Hold My Own]

take it easy on SJ, he doesn't go to Convo and doest hear the student body go crazy every time the doc's about to speak and he has to wait a few minutes...

SJ I'm not saying this is your situation, but here's my thoughts on those that you described...LU isn't for everyone, yet it's those who it's not for and continue to go that bring the school down....I'm shocked to how open some of our athletes are to learning about what LU stands for, when everyone had them labeled when they came in, and I'm still shocked to how closed minded others are who everyone thought from the image stand point are the exemplary LU students....I'm not asking for every student to be a christian, in fact I rather 1/3 not be, but the HAVE to be open to the concepts....and it just seems like a lot of students already have their mind made up about a lot of things in life including religion

[LUconn]

take it easy on SJ, he doesn't go to Convo and doest hear the student body go crazy every time the doc's about to speak and he has to wait a few minutes...

That's not because they like him, although I'm sure 99% do. That's because the students think it's funny to cheer for him for 5 minutes. News Flash. It's not. It wasn't 5 years ago either. I think there needs to be a class for freshman going over all stupid conversations/discussions/situations that freshman will enevitably have to get that junk out of the way.

[Average Student]

I am new to the board and found it kinda funny that you bring up Convo. The way that I have understood it to be is that they really don't want to hear the same message over and over again. The students really like it when he dosen't speak in convo cause they can pretty much tell you what he is going to say. I don't have a problem with Dr.Falwell, I enjoy his messages alot, but I have just observed the students and that is how I feel that are like about the situation.

[PAmedic]

welcome aboard and thanks for your viewpoint. You see this stuff up close, everyday- where us "old guys" (SCAR and SLY being FAR older than me, BTW) can only speculate as to what the heck is going on down there.

as an aside- how many fellow students do you think are aware of the existence of this board, and what do you personally think of it?

[TDDance234]

CFAW is this weekend so, I'd imagine the long cheers for Jerry will multiply.

[kel varson]

Okay, some of you are saying Liberty's rules present a problem for Christian Athletes. Okay, we're talking about "CHRISTIAN ATHLETES." This is Liberty not Pensacola Christian. Which of these current rules are so hard to follow. We're not recruiting "snoop dog." I had no problem with the rules at Liberty and they are less strict now than they have ever been. I don't get it.

[TallyW]

I think SJ is saying that the top atheletes are not Christians who would be willing to live under authority other than themselves.

I think SJ may be saying that atheletes by nature are self-absorbed and therefore Liberty could never attract them because Liberty requires crazy rules like curfews.

I also think SJ is confused when he says that the bible classes are "Extra" that wouldn't be taken at a state school. I think SJ forgets that SACS requires a certain amount of classes to confer a degree (most are 120 hours). I think SJ ignores the fact that the only difference is with regard to DIFFERENT core classes at a state school, not more or less.

Frankly I think it's an easy way out to complain about rules. Liberty can and will attract top talent in the near future.

Year after year it's the same song. Students complaining but they keep paying tuition.

[D Edcil]

I think SJ is saying that the top atheletes are not Christians who would be willing to live under authority other than themselves.

I think SJ may be saying that atheletes by nature are self-absorbed and therefore Liberty could never attract them because Liberty requires crazy rules like curfews.

I also think SJ is confused when he says that the bible classes are "Extra" that wouldn't be taken at a state school. I think SJ forgets that SACS requires a certain amount of classes to confer a degree (most are 120 hours). I think SJ ignores the fact that the only difference is with regard to DIFFERENT core classes at a state school, not more or less.

Frankly I think it's an easy way out to complain about rules. Liberty can and will attract top talent in the near future.

Year after year it's the same song. Students complaining but they keep paying tuition.

TALLY - For starters, check the retention rate in regards to students paying tuiton. Also, check to see how many students are actually "Paying" full tuition. Two Words: Unfunded Scholarships. There is a good number of students who have/do attend LU b/c they can't afford to go anywhere else.
I agree w/Brokeback's comments regarding the need to deliniate between "Good" people and "Chrisitans" Top athletes will go where they are catered to the most and what school can offer them the most. I don't mean money or cars (Unless you go to an SEC school!) but degree programs, living environment, post collegiate employment etc. Like it or not this DOES put LU at a disadvantage. Like HMO I don't care if these kids are Christians or not, I would however, like to have good ball players who are good citizens. But kids are not going to want to come to a school with living conditions like we have, with class room situations that we have with extra curricular activities that we have.
What COULD happen is to follow the trend in the NCAA tournament. Get a core of above average players and keep them together for 4 years. That has been a recipe for success (UNCA for one in the BS) and something we COULD do at LU. It is not a quick fix, but a good blue print here.

[TallyW]

Rentention rates?

Have you lost it? The school has DOUBLED in 10 years. I don't think retention is an issue.
-------

As for the unfunded scholarships, those are slowly going away and even the ones that are active have been made up by two things:
1. The volume of students coming in
2. Rising cost of tuition. (and the mandatory fee from 12-18 hrs)

--------
I completely reject your view that students come to LU b/c they can't afford to go anywhere else. That's flat out garbage.

The default value on Liberty's website for an entering freshman is $16,500/year

The most expensive state school is William and Mary: (from their website)
W&M in-state tuition: $ 3,889.00 per Semester
LIBERTY tuition: $ 8,250.00 per Semester

So to say that people come to Liberty b/c it's cheap is flat out wrong. Liberty charges nearly $9000 more/yr than the most expensive state school.

--------
"But kids are not going to want to come to a school with living conditions like we have, with class room situations that we have with extra curricular activities that we have. "

You really meant for your fingers to put those words on the screen?
- "Living Conditions like we have?" What in the world are you talking about???? How terrible are your "living conditions?" Liberty is building dorms like they're crazy and they're slacking up on the off-campus living. They remodeled the 'Senior Dorms' this year and they're building more dorms on "Campus East" as we speak. What in the world are you complaining about? Did I mention food options. I believe you can eat at any of about 15 places on campus now. Anyone out there remember when Rot was the only place to eat? Yeah... Living conditions at LU are terrible. Give me a break.

- "class room situations" - Again... I think you've fallen and hit your head. With a practically brand new academic center, former Ericcson building, T-1 wired campus and renovated class rooms galore... you complain about the "class room situations"?

- "extra curricular activities"- Yeah... I guess you've been in hibernation the last 5 years. Have you seen everything LU has done to boost campus living? LU has one of the best intramural programs in the nation. Not in Lynchburg.. the nation. The LaHaye center itself is huge... forget the pools, clubhouses, movie theaters on campus, etc. LU is bending over backwards to give students great activities. Not to mention all of the retail that has sprung up around campus. You have one of the most modern areas in the country at your back door now. Construction has been booming the last few years.

Lynchburg is growing and it's not because it's a crappy town. LU students stay, businesses are moving in and places like Wyndurst are being built. You cannot honestly say that Lynchburg is a bad place to attend college. Not to mention the fact that Charlottesville is 45 minutes north of you. If you have any desire for a "major college town" a student could make that trip without a problem... many working adults make that commute every day to get to work.

I also don't get why the whiners on the board keep comparing everything to the top recruits at an SEC or ACC school. Can anyone please remind them that we're talking the type of talent that can win out the BSC and make regular trips to the field of 65... we're not talking about the next Carmelo Anthony here... There is a big difference between attracting a starter at an ACC school and attracting a guy who would be a role player at an ACC school but would be a star in the Big South. We CAN get those guys. They WILL play for us. Larry Blair is a prime example. If we had 4 more guys with his talent level at the other positions there is no doubt we'd have been able to play with anyone. Sure we may not win against the biggest and baddest but we'd be well on our way to building a program.

[LUconn]

I understand setting the bar high. But that said, Larry Bliar is arguably the best player in the Big South. He's ONE of the best ever to play at Liberty. And you're asking for 4 more of him at different positions? How do you not see that as insane? Do you think every coach we've ever had is just not trying or do we just hire the most terrible recruiters we can find?

[jmdickens]

The problem has come down to Dunton....I know the recruiters are good, but I know a lot of people don't like him.

[A.G.]

Sighhhhhh.
Here we go, again.
Duck season
Rabbit Season
Duck Season
Rabbit Season
no
DUNTON SEASON.

Please, let's not start that, again!

[TallyW]

Tally said:
"If we had 4 more guys with his talent level at the other positions there is no doubt we'd have been able to play with anyone. Sure we may not win against the biggest and baddest but we'd be well on our way to building a program."

I think I said "IF we had..." I don't believe I said that I felt that it was going to happen over night. I think I also said "Once we get a few of these guys we can use them to recruit the others."

From my P.O.V. this isn't a talk about the past... it's about the future and whether or not LU can recruit solid D1 talent to LU. As far as I'm concerned this is more about the school and atmosphere, vision, exposure, etc than it is about the current coach.

To me it's about filling the seats, getting national exposure through our own media outlets, etc. A kid that would ride the bench in an ACC school and who takes their faith seriously should be at LU. He could shine and we can do a better job promoting him to be certain we can tell him that he'll get looks if he's a quality player.

Remember guys.. I'm not saying that all of the tools are in place today to do this... I'm saying that we have enough BONES there to make it happen. We just have to use our resources better and not shy away from the distinctives we hold. I personally believe that atheletes are human and you have good and bad. I believe the good at LU outweighs the bad for a certain type of athelete. I wonder how many kids rode the bench at a bottom feeder ACC school who (looking back) wishes he would have went to a smaller school and helped them build something.

[TallyW]

BTW:
I'm not a Dunton hater and that isn't where I care to take the thread.

[PAmedic]

BROKEBACK was right- this is gonna be one of those threads!

Its really hard to convey how impressive the growth at LU has been from the perspective of us old hags, anyway. I suppose thats why we find it so hard to believe kids WOULDN'T want to attend there nowadays- when we went there of our own volition(mostly!), even when the place looked likely to close up and move at a moments notice, if not go out of business entirely.

I guess its a matter of perception- current students see a lot of what is wrong while those of us that are gone now look back- maybe w/ nostalgia-tinted glasses?

[D Edcil]

I am going to save space by not quoting TALLY - But.....
Yes I HAVE seen the new dorms they have/are building. They are starting to get overcrowded and run down already. They are much better then the 6 or 8 to dorm room of a few years ago, but still sub standard. As for classroom situation, we have too many students and not enough profs. Classes are over crowded (not just the GNED's et al) and profs are stretched to the hilt. As for retention rates, you make my point, more people are coming in, true, but more people are leaving. Tuition will always be an issue. You are actually incorrect about your facts regarding unfunded scholarships. You can get 1k off your tuition for blowing your nose! Since JF has re taken the reigns this number is continuing to increase.
I have been in the LaHayes center and "Ericsson". Here is what I have seen. An undersized weight and cardio room for a campus our size and a pool that is also undersized. The ice rink is great,but if we are going ot have a DI hockey team, where are people gonna sit? Not to mention that the cost of running the facility is over 3x's as much as they budgeted. Granted we have a great intramural program, not going to argue with that, but what else is there to do? I will say I have not been on campus as a student so I may be drawing from heresay of current students, but not much has changed.
The point is, LU has some SERIOUS problems. This goes back to the "status quo" argument. IT MUST CHANGE and until it does, LU will not be able to "be all it can be"!!

Dunton season? So soon? I'll stop for some coffee at Dunton Donuts

[TallyW]

While it is true that we all tend to look back in our lives like an ex-girlfriend (remembering the good and forgetting the bad) I think that much of what we're talking about can be proven. Liberty WOULD NOT GROW if it was as bad as some people claim. The fact is that SJ moved to Lynchburg to attend LU even though he has problems with it (I'm not knocking him at all...) It's just that for all of the complaints, the school continues to grow.

I don't know of any business or institution that continues to grow at an astronomical rate all the while providing horrible service to its customers. It just doesn't happen.

[LUconn]

Not to mention that the cost of running the facility is over 3x's as much as they budgeted.

I hate this junk. You hear this stuff for 4 years from students and I guess you hear it afterwards. How could anybody possibly know this? If that were true, I'm sure that whoever is managing that place and maybe 4 other people would know it. They're not gonna put it in the paper nor would they announce it in convo. I heard stuff all the time that was obviously just made up and then got "telephone gamed" right to me. I'm not saying you made this up but I'd be wary giving facts like this.

[TallyW]

Dorms: Run down already? Are you really saying that even though you admit to not being on campus as a student?

Scholarships: You didn't answer my point. Tuition increases are more than paying for the "scholarships". I have news for you. If you raise tuition by $3,000 and give away $1,000... you actually have a net increase of $2,000. You can't point to that as a legit problem. Especially with LU now in the black and posting $12 million in revenue each year.

Campus Life: Good, you admit the student life is of high quality. The pool being too small. First of all I didn't realize that it was a requirement to have a pool and secondly I don't think it'll keep students away. I took a former student to check out the campus and he was a swimmer on his H.S. swim team which ended the year ranked in the top 3 in Texas. He said "It's small but it's here." He looked at it as a bonus, not as a requirement.

No argument on the tuition comparrisons?

On top of it all you've never been a student there?

[D Edcil]

While it is true that we all tend to look back in our lives like an ex-girlfriend (remembering the good and forgetting the bad) I think that much of what we're talking about can be proven. Liberty WOULD NOT GROW if it was as bad as some people claim. The fact is that SJ moved to Lynchburg to attend LU even though he has problems with it (I'm not knocking him at all...) It's just that for all of the complaints, the school continues to grow.

I don't know of any business or institution that continues to grow at an astronomical rate all the while providing horrible service to its customers. It just doesn't happen.

AOL, Alltel, Verizon, DMV (lOL) and others provide horrible service. I disagree, and Wall Street does as well, just because you grow does not mean you offer great customer service. Several companies grow DESPITE their customer service. As for nostalgia, that is why there are so many alum WANTING things to get better.
In re reading your posts, I think I have found our crux, You feel we have the "bones" or foundation and all we need is the window dressing. I feel the opposite. We dont have the foundation or infrastructure, but we sure do have a lot of things that look pretty on the surface. I hope and can't wait for the day this is not so