[flamesfilmguy]

Rue I see where you are coming from but i think the point SJ is trying to make is that like capping enrollment helps bring in smarter kids, selling out vines every game helps bring in more "devoted" fans who want to be there and that in and of itself creates an amazing atmosphere in the furnace. better to turn people away and have a packed house of loud engaged fans than to have an "almost sellout of people who may not be as engaged as fans in a larger venue. you see this some with the vines now. you notice the top section of the student section is usually come and go as people walk by the vines and go "oh hey there's a basketball game tonight lets watch."

[SuperJon]

The only team (Professional, semi-pro, college) who has ever sold out on a consistent basis that didnt make plans to rebuild has been the red sox. Obviously, they have alot of history in Fenway and all that goes with that. I dont think people are that attached to the vines.

In basketball, off the top of my head: Duke, Carolina, Kentucky, Syracuse, and I'm sure a lot of other schools.

In football you've got the entire SEC, half the Big 12, most of the Big Ten, and half of the ACC.

And im pretty sure you were always one of the opponents of taking away the large student sections. If the school is 12,000 students and there are 18,000 from the city(going off the fact that were selling out the bill and those people like basketball as well)

where do you put the students then? Do the lottery system? I just think theres alot more negatives to building this thing at that capacity. But again, Selling out at on a consistent basis is not a bad thing, it just has its draw backs if its at a number equal to the enrollment

I'm always going to be a proponent of large student sections, as is most if not all of our athletic department. If we are at the point of capacity every game then I would be perfectly fine with some type of system to give 5-6000 students tickets to the game, and then if the city sections don't sell out, you open those up to students. It happens at every good school around the country.

[thepostman]

If we have to have lottery for students in either football or basketball sometime down the line then I would be so excited...to me, that would mean we have finally made it as an athletics program

wow this news has gotten me back to posting like crazy, haha

[jcmanson]

before we are so quick to jump on rueful, he makes some valid points. Some of his thoughts have run through my mind as well. Although I think there will be changes to convo to where the Vines will work. And the Vines for our bball team with the upgrade could be a great home for 20+ years. UVA had an 8000 seat stadium until 3-4 years ago that they didn't always sell out.

[Liberty4Life]

That'll look fantastic when we play postseason tournaments in front of 1800 indifferent fans.

[rueful]

I guess to me it just leaves no room for growth, which I think they need to do. You dont build a stadium to facilitate where you are at.

Postman, convocation was just made mandatory for commuters this year (so its been said, but i havent gone all week and no reps).

To me I think a good idea would be to build it to something more like 15/16000 as opposed to 11/12000, for this reasoning. Right now, at 8085, the Vines is just about full (the back section for commuters is usally 1/3 full, but there is overflow other places. Theres only housing for about I think somewhere between 6/7000 students on campus, the rest are commuters. So if we grow to our goal of 25000 someday, this will probably translate the same way with the commuters, to where about 2/3 live on campus, and 1/3 are commuters, add in faculty and staff and your looking at about 18,000. If faculty and staff went to convo on wednesdays at Thomas Road like they do now, then you would still need seating for 16,000 on campus. 15000 for basketball keeps it a good size basketball arena(not too big not too small), and is still something that in 10 years could be something we sell out.

[jcmanson]

I agree with you rueful. I just have to think that Jerry Jr & company have thought about that and have something else in mind with convo, and I'm assuming it's simulcast with students scattered across campus.

[rueful]

I agree with you rueful. I just have to think that Jerry Jr & company have thought about that and have something else in mind with convo, and I'm assuming it's simulcast with students scattered across campus.

I hope and pray it doesnt come to that. The spiritual life on campus is already so lacking/mediocre, that I think at that point they might as well completely do away with convo, or do a major overhauling of it, something like what ministry chapel is, just for all majors, like a business chapel where they bring in someone from the business world to speak, a nurse for the nursing. I just dont see the multi site church model working well for convocation as a long term solution for it.

But I do agree, I know Jerry Jr. and company have thought about it and I do trust where they are leading the school.

[thepostman]

convo has always been "mandatory" for commuters

[LUconn]

With convo taken out of the equation, which I know is a significant factor I'm ignoring, we will never need any more seats than this. If we win 5 NCAA championships in a row, VT and UVA students change their allegiances the way LU students do now, Nike sets up shop in the new lobby, the program recruits itself, and we have townies camping out for tickets, we will not need more than 12,000 seats.

Now, with that in mind we move onto the convocation question. Take the max number. If there is 25,000 non-DLP students in who knows how many years (apparently more than 5-10), that are required to attend convo then it would be very difficult to have them all in the same building. I think you just have to get used to the idea that the entire school will not be able to fit in the same building at some point in the future of this school. Once you come to terms with that, then you have to decide where you're going to cut it. 12,000 is as good a spot as any.

[rueful]

convo has always been "mandatory" for commuters

yeah but last year while you were away they re-did the commuter program sort of, those moving off had to go to several events and whatnot, and it was supposed to actually be mandatory for them. The way they had it set up didnt end up working out though, I guess, so from what I hear its basically just that they are cracking down on people on campus not in convo (on campus meaning literally present on campus during convo, not someone who lives on campus)

[jcmanson]

Why don't we just have convo at the Bill

[LUconn]

also, I always thought Dr. Sheh was some professor I was not familiar with. I've been duped.

[LUconn]

Why don't we just have convo at the Bill

We'd need a bigger pergola first.

[jcmanson]

also, I always thought Dr. Sheh was some professor I was not familiar with. I've been duped.

Ha, me too. Never would have guessed it was a student.

[SuperJon]

Why don't we just have convo at the Bill

That's what you'd call a logistical nightmare.

[rueful]

some reason i just remembered the time there was a "gunman" on campus during convo, and they locked all the students in the vines, and it turned out to be a guy with an umbrella, and how on here there was that long discussion then and again after april 16th about how unsafe convo is if there was a gunman etc. etc.

having said that, convo in multiple sites would be a good thing. I guess I just think that at a certain point, students would be too spread out (if we grow to 25,000) to where it just gets ridiculous

[LUconn]

I think you're right about convo losing a special quality when it's spread out. Watching a powerful speaker is really just not the same on a screen vs being in the building. But I think it's an inevitability unfortunately.

[SuperJon]

I think you're right about convo losing a special quality when it's spread out. Watching a powerful speaker is really just not the same on a screen vs being in the building. But I think it's an inevitability unfortunately.

At the same time, how many people watch the screens more than they watch the person on stage already?

[JK37]

So if we grow to our goal of 25000 someday, this will probably translate the same way with the commuters, to where about 2/3 live on campus, and 1/3 are commuters

Let me throw my .02 in here and say that IF the resident enrollment ever reaches 25,000, its unrealistic to think that 2/3 will live on-campus. There is no resident university of that size in the nation that includes on-campus student housing in the amount of 2/3 of it's resident population.

Furthermore, with the passing of Dr. Falwell, a distinct change in vision occurred. Capping of enrollment would NEVER have happened while he was alive. JJ favors quality over quantity. No right vs. wrong here, just a shift in philosophy. Even more, he realizes that the Vines Center cannot fully and properly serve the campus community if it is first considered as a convocation hall. Therefore, convocation will be adapted as the primary employment of the facility continues its proper shift to athletics.

Also, in calling the campus' spiritual climate "mediocre," you are revealing the true axe you seem so persistent in grinding in this debate. You must rest your assumption of this mediocrity on the idea that it has declined because convo is no longer one unified, live event. SJ's facts about current church models prove that such practice does work in many venues nationwide. And, the current shift is towards more of them, not less.

Finally, if your entire argument is based on the premise of Dr. Falwell's 50,000 goal (which he stopped stating as a 25k/25k split even while he was still alive), you must realize that with currently 11,300 resident and over 28,000 DLP, that goal will not be realized with 25,000 resident. Even Dr. Falwell realized that before his passing. I predict resident enrollment will remain capped for the next decade as University infrastructure is progressively enhanced and upgraded.

[SuperJon]

Also, in calling the campus' spiritual climate "mediocre," you are revealing the true axe you seem so persistent in grinding in this debate. You must rest your assumption of this mediocrity on the idea that it has declined because convo is no longer one unified, live event.

I'm glad you said that. I was going to but wanted to see if anyone else noticed it first.

[thepostman]

convo has always been "mandatory" for commuters

yeah but last year while you were away they re-did the commuter program sort of, those moving off had to go to several events and whatnot, and it was supposed to actually be mandatory for them. The way they had it set up didnt end up working out though, I guess, so from what I hear its basically just that they are cracking down on people on campus not in convo (on campus meaning literally present on campus during convo, not someone who lives on campus)

are they scanning id's again or something, because really that is the only way it could be halfway enforced..and honestly its way too big of a job at this point for it to really be seriously enforced

I have been out of liberty for well over a year now and can not even tell you how many times during my time at LU they said they were "cracking down" on commuters being in convo...the only thing that ever happened is you got in trouble if you were in the halls during convo...

[rueful]

COuldnt be further from the truth, convo is actually part of the mediocrity. If you actually think critically about the situation with on campus spiritual life, one gets the impression that a good Christian should go to convo and prayer groups and campus serve and campus church and want to be a pl and someday an ra, if you don't do that your not a good Christian. So you have a bunch of people doing these things with no concern for dealng with the issues in their heart and following Jesus. But thanks for trying.

My snse of mediocrity lies far more with the slo none whatsoever with convocation

[jcmanson]

So, how about that Vines Center renovation?

[thepostman]

COuldnt be further from the truth, convo is actually part of the mediocrity. If you actually think critically about the situation with on campus spiritual life, one gets the impression that a good Christian should go to convo and prayer groups and campus serve and campus church and want to be a pl and someday an ra, if you don't do that your not a good Christian. So you have a bunch of people doing these things with no concern for dealng with the issues in their heart and following Jesus. But thanks for trying.

My snse of mediocrity lies far more with the slo none whatsoever with convocation

so how do you suggest this change?? Having a larger gathering of students in one place?? doesn't seem to make much sense...

Christian schools will always be like that whether you like it or not...LU is meant to give young people a solid foundation, and hope it inspires them to do great things for Christ...it is much too large to do much more then that effectively. I spent a good couple years blaming LU for my cynical ways..and so will many more students for years to come...but in the end its personal responsibility and I believe there is enough out there spiritually on the LU campus to put that solid foundation in place...convo was never meant to replace church, and honestly I think the spiritual life on campus would be much better without it...but again this is opening up a whole other can of worms..