[kingaling42]

And to steal the thought from Bob Stoops- I would say that just give me the rules at the beginning of the year & we can all play by them.. Sounds like it's only a problem if you don't win the conference to try to change the rules after the season was complete-- let's make wine with all those sour grapes.. I just thought it was funny to see all the empty seats in the pics..

[prototype]

Ah- the glory days of 2004- point being is that it's ONLY that way when LU's playing in the tournament final- show me the non- TV camera view (i.e. the other side & baselines) of that game with all the boosters & it being probably 25-30% full & then we'll talk some more!! You guys are fun...

Actually Kingaling - we averaged a legitimate crowd of over 6,000 that year and have two games that were close to sold out. Our fans show up for men's games. Do you guys even get 5,000 fans all season?

They really should rename your Broom closet the Kingaling Gym - you love that place!!

[LUconn]

What's funny is, initially they actually would only let us sit on the TV side as kingaling is suggesting, but then 5 minutes after the doors opened it was obvious that they didn't have to do that nor would they be able to do that. It was definitely full to the top on every side.

[kingaling42]

Yes- I am aware of the "TV angling" that has happened in the past which is why I mentioned the other side- it's funny how defensive you guys got with just a little poking though.. But if you need numbers for the tourney stuff- just let me find all those attendance records from when the Vines hosted the tourney in the mid/late 90's- I don't want to hear any lame "business sense" motives after some of the pitiful attendance from those years (just because LU wasn't always still in it!)- I think we can agree that there is no perfect answer when it comes to the smaller venued schools with higher seeds in the current format- but mandating a change that only affects a few makes me think you are very full of yourselves for suggesting such a mandate. it's simple- win games in the regular season!! Imagine if there was another arena in L'burg that held more folks than the Vines (perhaps there is- I dunno) and you win the league sometime & the Big South forces you to play there even though you haven't played or practiced there for years, just to sell more tickets- tell me you're ok with that (& mean it!) & I'll shut up...

[Sly Fox]

We wouldn't need to move it since we don't play in a junior high gym.

[kingaling42]

We didn't need to move it to destroy you guys in it either last year.. it's called perspective- try some!!

[SuperJon]

And to steal the thought from Bob Stoops- I would say that just give me the rules at the beginning of the year & we can all play by them.. Sounds like it's only a problem if you don't win the conference to try to change the rules after the season was complete-- let's make wine with all those sour grapes.. I just thought it was funny to see all the empty seats in the pics..

See, here's the deal - while you're using your little whoa is us and the big boys are picking on us act, you fail to recognize that not all of us played basketball for a Big South school in the 90's. I've only been following Big South basketball since 05-06, the year I first went to a Big South school. The reason I never thought of this stuff before is that it was never an issue. The first time it came up, that I was aware of, is when I made a suggestion. It wasn't because we got beat by Asheville in the tournament. I think I said something back in February about it because I thought it was a terrible idea then.

I think that our format is great. It allows teams that win and earn it to get the home fan advantage. I wouldn't care one bit if there was a 15,000 seat arena in Lynchburg and the Big South thought we should move it there because we had 15,000 people that wanted to come to the game. I would love it because the would mean it's more people for my school that get to come out and support us.

Is penalizing a school that hasn't updated their facilities in decades unfair? Not really. It happens all the time. How many times has Liberty had the chance to host the baseball conference tournament but couldn't host it on campus because the facilities weren't up to par? We had to move to other venues. If it's ok for baseball, why is it not ok for basketball?

[Sly Fox]

We didn't need to move it to destroy you guys in it either last year.. it's called perspective- try some!!

I have to admit your presence has added some levity to the board. Perhaps we should close down Vines and play UNCA only in Schilling.

[Hold My Own]

We had to move to other venues. If it's ok for baseball, why is it not ok for basketball?

Ding!!! Ding!! Ding!

[kingaling42]

Probably because being passed over as a host venue for all participants is the same as competing for the Olympics & other types of sports- usually the best facilities/accomodations & travel distance for participants comes into play.. Which is why LU hosted the BS tourney back then (my point is that that wasn't a great solution for the conference either regardless of how nice/big Vines is), Asheville hosted it the next couple of years at the Civic Center- the difference was that knowing in advance of this allowed us to schedule & play some games in the Civic Center in those years-

I have no problem with the league coming up with a solution to provide larger venues for the tournament- especially for UNCA, CCU, CSU, even HP- but you can't do that after the season results are in- allow the smaller venue schools to get some games scheduled/played/practices in the other venue- that's the fair thing to do.. you don't just realize even if you're KK "Oh crap- UNCA won but can only seat 1200 people, let's throw what they worked so hard for all year & make them play somewhere else so we can make some more money"- I'm not playing the woah is me card- I'm saying establish the rules in a timely & fair methodology & then let's play the games...

[Hold My Own]

We didn't need to move it to destroy you guys in it either last year.. it's called perspective- try some!!

I have to admit your presence has added some levity to the board. Perhaps we should close down Vines and play UNCA only in Schilling.

Understand Kings disgruntledness....I'd be mad too if a fellow BSC member had a facility on campus (Schilling) that's nicer then their main gym yet not even good enough for LU intramural's...their main gym equivalent is our #3

[SuperJon]

I never said change the rule mid-season. Asheville deserved what they got last year.

However, if Kallander knew how to halfway run a successful conference then he would've realized the problems afterward and put in place a new rule or something over the summer. The problem is he couldn't successfully run the YMCA rec league basketball tournament, much less the Big South tournament so nothing was changed.

You have to experience mistakes before you can make things work exactly right. You have to see some of the problems come to light before you can fix them. At the same time, you have to have the brain to know how to fix them once they do come to light and, well, he doesn't.

[SuperJon]

Also understand I'm not making this an LU vs Asheville thing. This is a general common sense thing.


Winthrop, Liberty, Radford, Gardner-Webb, and VMI all have actual arenas. They all seat over 5000. They all can hold a significant amount of people, which is what you're going to draw if you're the #1 seed in the conference tournament and are playing in the finals (remember, if the #1 seed gets knocked off, it's played at the highest remaining seed).

Coastal, CSU, PC, HPU, and Asheville have gyms. They seat roughly 2000 or less. That's not enough seating for a conference tournament championship game, or even a place that's going to host two semi-final games back to back.


Last year at Asheville the gym had to be cleared out in between games on Semifinal Thursday. That shouldn't have to happen. If you come to a tournament, you should be able to watch both games. Asheville didn't have enough room for that though.

[kingaling42]

We didn't need to move it to destroy you guys in it either last year.. it's called perspective- try some!!

I have to admit your presence has added some levity to the board. Perhaps we should close down Vines and play UNCA only in Schilling.

Understand Kings disgruntledness....I'd be mad too if a fellow BSC member had a facility on campus (Schilling) that's nicer then their main gym yet not even good enough for LU intramural's...their main gym equivalent is our #3

Actually I think that our student athletic center is better than the Justice Center (other than it would need some hardwood courts)- seeing as how the JC is a 50 year old facility you'll get no argument from me- but I'll tell ya I loved playing there & the environment (if you've ever been there) is really awesome to play in- we played Kansas & Kentucky my senior year with 20,000+ & the JC was still the loudest place I've ever played.. For the record it doesn't bother me that you have either of your facilities- we have banter with Western Carolina fans that play that card too-- I'll take our overall success of league titles instead (even with our junior high gym!)

[kingaling42]

Probably because being passed over as a host venue for all participants is the same as competing for the Olympics & other types of sports- usually the best facilities/accomodations & travel distance for participants comes into play.. Which is why LU hosted the BS tourney back then (my point is that that wasn't a great solution for the conference either regardless of how nice/big Vines is), Asheville hosted it the next couple of years at the Civic Center- the difference was that knowing in advance of this allowed us to schedule & play some games in the Civic Center in those years-

I have no problem with the league coming up with a solution to provide larger venues for the tournament- especially for UNCA, CCU, CSU, even HP- but you can't do that after the season results are in- allow the smaller venue schools to get some games scheduled/played/practices in the other venue- that's the fair thing to do.. you don't just realize even if you're KK "Oh crap- UNCA won but can only seat 1200 people, let's throw what they worked so hard for all year & make them play somewhere else so we can make some more money"- I'm not playing the woah is me card- I'm saying establish the rules in a timely & fair methodology & then let's play the games...

I agree with a change- as I previously posted.. but you guys did want us to move the game last year as I had some heated debates in that regard on here.. My only point is that our team & players shouldn't be punished because of the facilities & the Big South's lack of foresight.. I hate that we couldn't accomodate more fans- I really do, but also remember with Kenny last year we sold out every home game & still were turning away hundreds of others who showed up on game day- so it was unfortunate for our team all year not to have a bigger, better place.. I still defend the team's stance to NOT change the venue 10000000%

[coolhandluke]

I have to admit your presence has added some levity to the board. Perhaps we should close down Vines and play UNCA only in Schilling.

Understand Kings disgruntledness....I'd be mad too if a fellow BSC member had a facility on campus (Schilling) that's nicer then their main gym yet not even good enough for LU intramural's...their main gym equivalent is our #3

Actually I think that our student athletic center is better than the Justice Center (other than it would need some hardwood courts)- seeing as how the JC is a 50 year old facility you'll get no argument from me- but I'll tell ya I loved playing there & the environment (if you've ever been there) is really awesome to play in- we played Kansas & Kentucky my senior year with 20,000+ & the JC was still the loudest place I've ever played.. For the record it doesn't bother me that you have either of your facilities- we have banter with Western Carolina fans that play that card too-- I'll take our overall success of league titles instead (even with our junior high gym!)

WCU is better than you could ever hope to be. And what success do you speak of? You guys have 3 regular season titles, but only won the tourney once. Liberty only has 1 regular season title but has won the tourney twice. I'd take OUR bigger and better gym, and OUR record of performing better when it counts any day!

And if you want to talk about league success, look at Coastal or Winthrop. As much as I hate them, they have dominated our league.

[Hold My Own]

I have to admit your presence has added some levity to the board. Perhaps we should close down Vines and play UNCA only in Schilling.

Understand Kings disgruntledness....I'd be mad too if a fellow BSC member had a facility on campus (Schilling) that's nicer then their main gym yet not even good enough for LU intramural's...their main gym equivalent is our #3

Actually I think that our student athletic center is better than the Justice Center (other than it would need some hardwood courts)- seeing as how the JC is a 50 year old facility you'll get no argument from me- but I'll tell ya I loved playing there & the environment (if you've ever been there) is really awesome to play in- we played Kansas & Kentucky my senior year with 20,000+ & the JC was still the loudest place I've ever played.. For the record it doesn't bother me that you have either of your facilities- we have banter with Western Carolina fans that play that card too-- I'll take our overall success of league titles instead (even with our junior high gym!)

That's why I like you...you took what i said all in stride...without a doubt it's a great gym for the home team...heck it's crazy...even in volleyball...you guys do introductions better then top 25 schools (seriously, you do) I'm sure it's gotta feel good for the guys on the court for UNCA

[Hold My Own]

I dont think anyone on here truly expects UNCA to give that game up....I think our problem is when the BSC does nothing about it...but I'm sure KK was busy doing something else more important then to manage the venue

[Sly Fox]

For the record, I still don't believe moving that game to the Civic Center would've punished UNCA. It still would've been a primarily home crowd.

[kingaling42]

Understand Kings disgruntledness....I'd be mad too if a fellow BSC member had a facility on campus (Schilling) that's nicer then their main gym yet not even good enough for LU intramural's...their main gym equivalent is our #3

Actually I think that our student athletic center is better than the Justice Center (other than it would need some hardwood courts)- seeing as how the JC is a 50 year old facility you'll get no argument from me- but I'll tell ya I loved playing there & the environment (if you've ever been there) is really awesome to play in- we played Kansas & Kentucky my senior year with 20,000+ & the JC was still the loudest place I've ever played.. For the record it doesn't bother me that you have either of your facilities- we have banter with Western Carolina fans that play that card too-- I'll take our overall success of league titles instead (even with our junior high gym!)

WCU is better than you could ever hope to be. And what success do you speak of? You guys have 3 regular season titles, but only won the tourney once. Liberty only has 1 regular season title but has won the tourney twice. I'd take OUR bigger and better gym, and OUR record of performing better when it counts any day!

And if you want to talk about league success, look at Coastal or Winthrop. As much as I hate them, they have dominated our league.

Check your facts there smart guy- UNCA has 4 regular seasons & 2 tourney titles (Winthrop has 7/8, Coastal has 4/3, CSU at 2/4, Radfords at 3/1, LU's at 1/2)

Don't even get me started with Western Carolina who has finished in last place 3 of the past 4 years in their North Division of the SoCon- they haven't finished above .500 since 1996- I've got numbers all day long on them if you really want to go there... plus our head to head is better the past 12 years since we rekindled the rivalry- don't start something here with WCU you can't back up... if you need more try this

WCU Men’s Basketball
1996-97 14-13
1997-98 12-15
1998-99 8-21 RPI 269
1999-00 14-14 RPI 230
2000-01 6-25 RPI 297
2001-02 12-16 RPI 266
2002-03 9-19 RPI 290
2003-04 13-15 RPI 236
2004-05 8-22 RPI 309 (out of 330 teams-ouch!)
2005-06 13-17 RPI 265
2006-07 11-20 RPI 244
2007-08 10-21 RPI 293
Totals 130-218 (.415 winning percentage) Average RPI 269.9

UNCA Men’s Basketball
1996-97-18/10
1997-98-19/9
1998-99-11/18 RPI 267
1999-00-11/19 RPI 215
2000-01-15/13 RPI 235
2001-02-13/15 RPI 263
2002-03-15/17 RPI 186
2003-04-9 /20 RPI 272
2004-05-11/17 RPI 252
2005-06-9/19 RPI 239
2006-07-12 /19 RPI 249
2007-08-23/10 RPI 143
Totals 166-186 (.472 winning %) Average RPI 232.1

In regard to our overall record it also is because our Non-Conference strength of schedule is usually Top 100 (5 of the 10 seasons that measures that in RPI) or better (Top 25 twice in that period) in the country.. plus we all know that it's Men's basketball that raises monies for UNCA athletics- all smaller schools (even LU) play these guaranteed money games- we just play 4-6 each year & have done so since 1996- We're also 36 games ahead of WCU in the same time period & 35+ points higher average in RPI..

Magically in the same time period we still have 4 seasons above .500 total record- 4 conference championships, 1 NCAA bid & 1 NIT bid- since we're talking UNCA basketball.. So- what's Western done again? I'll wait...

[SuperJon]

Here's what it comes down to:

Our conference has an idiot running it. Any logical suggestion to improve things isn't going to happen because that man has no common sense whatsoever.

We can propose all kinds of things that actually have merit and could work, but until that tool gets fired it's not going to change anything.

[kingaling42]

Valid- I agree there are several better options- Change should be made in advance if they announce something like starting in the '09-'10 season, etc- I'd be all for it- give the schools the opportunity to tweak their schedule & venues so that it really still is a home-court advantage (even if it's not on your campus) - I do like the spirit of a small conference like ours to promote home-court advantage from the regular season- it makes it that much more important to take every game seriously & there is a way to get more butts in the stands as well..

[SuperJon]

I think you're putting more emphasis on home court while I'm putting more emphasis on home fans.

[kingaling42]

Maybe you lost me but I'm saying that I don't care if we play in the Civic Center (for example) vs the Justice Center so long as that determination is made in advance of the season so that our team can get some regular season games/practice in the Civic Center- then the Big South tourney if we were to host, would be accomodated with much more seating for all fans, etc unlike our other venue on campus..

But let's not act like playing the first time all season in an environment you don't ever play in & with the tourney/NCAA bid at stake is beneficial to the higher seed just because the crowd is pro-UNCA.. Didn't you guys argue that shooting in the JC with the backboards bolted to the walls, produces different shooting ability than the portable style goals?? So why would the environment not come into play here- more fans doesn't change the back drop for your players to shoot during the game- that's part of home-court not just more fans in a building..

[sweetnahmah1]

captions anyone?

Blair - "not in front of the kids man!"




had to, so this thread's purpose could be fulfilled.