A Sea Of Red

Coach correctly called us a "feeder" program today. First, he was correct in stating that is where we are. My question for the room is how do we move out of this position and does our administration have any roadmap to do so?

1. Obviously we have put $ in. Where do we need to allocate going forward?
2. Will things change if/when schools can directly pay players?
3. Scheduling: Does anyone truly believe we can't put a decentnonconference schedule together? I don't. Is our scheduling philosophy revealing that we are satisfied with our place in the pecking order? Can't we adopt a little more of an anyone, anywhere, anytime attitude? This isn't exclusive to football. Bball does this too. We have money. Does an extra home game really affect us? We can go unbalanced and take a one off away game against another conference power or P4.
4. Do we believe our conference mates are committed to "rising with us"? Can they afford to?

The football landscape continues to change rapidly. I trust Ian to do his job. He has proven trustworthy. My thought is more what do we fans want? Is top feeder program what we aspire to and is it even possible to be more in this environment?

Thanks! I will hang up and listen.

It's hard to schedule because the big schools are afraid they'll get beat. But with 12 team playoffs now, the selection committee has proven they reward schools that have weak schedule. Thus some Power 4 schools might schedule us, in place of P4 teams, in the future .

There's only a handful of schools that aren't feeder programs and even they are constantly dealing with players leaving for more money elsewhere whether that's the NFL or another blue blood. We will never be one of those programs. Our best players are going to leave and get paid. The best we can do is push out the dead weight and keep bringing in more talent than what we have leaving. If we do that we'll be in good shape for the G5 CFP slot and maybe someday even be competitive in those games.

ballcoach15 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2024, 10:16 pm It's hard to schedule because the big schools are afraid they'll get beat. But with 12 team playoffs now, the selection committee has proven they reward schools that have weak schedule. Thus some Power 4 schools might schedule us, in place of P4 teams, in the future .

I just can't buy this anymore, as I watch equal or better G5s schedule quality P4 opponents. LU being LU I'm guessing is the biggest part of it.

rtb72 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2024, 10:45 am

ballcoach15 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2024, 10:16 pm It's hard to schedule because the big schools are afraid they'll get beat. But with 12 team playoffs now, the selection committee has proven they reward schools that have weak schedule. Thus some Power 4 schools might schedule us, in place of P4 teams, in the future .

I just can't buy this anymore, as I watch equal or better G5s schedule quality P4 opponents. LU being LU I'm guessing is the biggest part of it.

We lost to KSU and nearly lost to FIU…nobody is scared of us.

We're going to remain a feeder program for the foreseeable future in the current system of CFB and while being in CUSA. It's just the way that it is. Our fortune as fans could change depending on the system that gets laid out in the future, if our Admin is willing to go there.

As far as football and MBB scheduling, I no longer believe the "official lines" coming from our Athletics Admin & McKay. And for the water carriers, that doesn't mean I'm calling them liars. I like and appreciate McCaw, Chadwell, McKay and Co., and want them all to retire at Liberty. I think they're doing a great job. But that doesn't mean that they're above constructive criticism, and they definitely deserve the criticism on OOC scheduling. Our home MBB OOC schedule this year is quite frankly a rip-off to season ticket holders and Flames Club members & it appears that the next couple of years for football are as well, especially with these midweek games.

People seem to not want to believe this, but the reality for why some schools won't schedule specifically in football is: #1. P4 conferences are moving toward only scheduling P4's and some of their commissioners are demanding it. #2. Some schools will not play us because we are an unapologetic Christian institution.

Why can't we just give Ian the benefit of the doubt? He has earned that with his fantastic performance as the school's AD.

I don’t see #1 as true. Look at OOC schedules of teams like Ole Miss and Alabama.

Top P4’s schedule automatic W’s or P4’s OOC, because their conference schedule is tough enough to get them to the playoffs. LU isn’t an automatic W. Obviously not a P4. LU finds itself in scheduling purgatory.

Oh, and #2 is probably right.

Schedules for football are made years in advance. When philosophies change like P4 conferences requiring less G5 games, or realignment occurs like when we went from independent to being in a conference, that is going to have an impact on your schedule for a few years. Go back and look at the original schedules for 2024 and 2025. We had P4s on them, but the circumstances changed with changing philosophies and realignment. What's so difficult about this for you all to understand? McCaw and co., were able to get some solid games against good G5 competition for this year and next, and I believe them when they say they are trying to get P4s back on the schedule. Why would they lie about that?

Regarding us being a feeder program, I think that depends on your perspective. Consider that both of our starting QBs since 2020 were transfers from notable P4 schools (Malik Willis - Auburn and Kaidon Salter - U of TN). Some of the most notable alums from our program were former P4/5 players (think Rashad Jennings). Does it suck to lose players that contribute? Yeah it does, but if we are a "feeder program" then we are doing something right. Like most, I scratch my head at some of the guys that choose to enter the portal. Sometimes it works out and they see real time on the field in their new situation, but most of the time it doesn't seem to work out. The latest for me is CJ Daniels, who went from 10TDs and 1K+ yds and a Fiesta Bowl appearance to <500 yds and no TDs at LSU. He did have a TD catch in their last game, but it was called back for a penalty... you could see the frustration on his face live on TV. Now he's back in the portal.

Last the real question - how do we move up the chain? I for one think the Revenue sharing is at least going to lock us in as the top dog in CUSA, because no one else will have the ability to match our ability to pay the max amount except for maybe FIU. Compared to other G5s outside of the AAC, I think the same will ring true. At some point soon, conferences are going to go away, and the big boys will split off and then we'll either be kings of the leftovers or will find a way to move into those ranks.

CFP selection committee values number of wins over strength of schedules. This will affect scheduling in the future. Example, Indiana has 0 wins over ranked teams, yet they appear to be a lock for playoffs. I look for SEC and ACC teams to seek games with G5 teams immediately.

Humble_Opinion wrote: ↑December 5th, 2024, 3:32 pm Schedules for football are made years in advance. When philosophies change like P4 conferences requiring less G5 games, or realignment occurs like when we went from independent to being in a conference, that is going to have an impact on your schedule for a few years. Go back and look at the original schedules for 2024 and 2025. We had P4s on them, but the circumstances changed with changing philosophies and realignment. What's so difficult about this for you all to understand? McCaw and co., were able to get some solid games against good G5 competition for this year and next, and I believe them when they say they are trying to get P4s back on the schedule. Why would they lie about that?

Regarding us being a feeder program, I think that depends on your perspective. Consider that both of our starting QBs since 2020 were transfers from notable P4 schools (Malik Willis - Auburn and Kaidon Salter - U of TN). Some of the most notable alums from our program were former P4/5 players (think Rashad Jennings). Does it suck to lose players that contribute? Yeah it does, but if we are a "feeder program" then we are doing something right. Like most, I scratch my head at some of the guys that choose to enter the portal. Sometimes it works out and they see real time on the field in their new situation, but most of the time it doesn't seem to work out. The latest for me is CJ Daniels, who went from 10TDs and 1K+ yds and a Fiesta Bowl appearance to <500 yds and no TDs at LSU. He did have a TD catch in their last game, but it was called back for a penalty... you could see the frustration on his face live on TV. Now he's back in the portal.

Last the real question - how do we move up the chain? I for one think the Revenue sharing is at least going to lock us in as the top dog in CUSA, because no one else will have the ability to match our ability to pay the max amount except for maybe FIU. Compared to other G5s outside of the AAC, I think the same will ring true. At some point soon, conferences are going to go away, and the big boys will split off and then we'll either be kings of the leftovers or will find a way to move into those ranks.

Liberty is a boat sinking slowly in the rough seas of college football with a bunch of gold in the bilge.

cruzan_flame13 wrote: ↑December 6th, 2024, 5:32 pm

Humble_Opinion wrote: ↑December 5th, 2024, 3:32 pm Schedules for football are made years in advance. When philosophies change like P4 conferences requiring less G5 games, or realignment occurs like when we went from independent to being in a conference, that is going to have an impact on your schedule for a few years. Go back and look at the original schedules for 2024 and 2025. We had P4s on them, but the circumstances changed with changing philosophies and realignment. What's so difficult about this for you all to understand? McCaw and co., were able to get some solid games against good G5 competition for this year and next, and I believe them when they say they are trying to get P4s back on the schedule. Why would they lie about that?

Regarding us being a feeder program, I think that depends on your perspective. Consider that both of our starting QBs since 2020 were transfers from notable P4 schools (Malik Willis - Auburn and Kaidon Salter - U of TN). Some of the most notable alums from our program were former P4/5 players (think Rashad Jennings). Does it suck to lose players that contribute? Yeah it does, but if we are a "feeder program" then we are doing something right. Like most, I scratch my head at some of the guys that choose to enter the portal. Sometimes it works out and they see real time on the field in their new situation, but most of the time it doesn't seem to work out. The latest for me is CJ Daniels, who went from 10TDs and 1K+ yds and a Fiesta Bowl appearance to <500 yds and no TDs at LSU. He did have a TD catch in their last game, but it was called back for a penalty... you could see the frustration on his face live on TV. Now he's back in the portal.

Last the real question - how do we move up the chain? I for one think the Revenue sharing is at least going to lock us in as the top dog in CUSA, because no one else will have the ability to match our ability to pay the max amount except for maybe FIU. Compared to other G5s outside of the AAC, I think the same will ring true. At some point soon, conferences are going to go away, and the big boys will split off and then we'll either be kings of the leftovers or will find a way to move into those ranks.

Liberty is a boat sinking slowly in the rough seas of college football with a bunch of gold in the bilge.

Calling a new FBS school coming off a fiesta bowl appearance a sinking ship is an interesting take.

Just think of Oklahoma State, Auburn and Virginia. Those are sinking ships.

Ill flame wrote: ↑December 7th, 2024, 7:06 pm

cruzan_flame13 wrote: ↑December 6th, 2024, 5:32 pm

Humble_Opinion wrote: ↑December 5th, 2024, 3:32 pm Schedules for football are made years in advance. When philosophies change like P4 conferences requiring less G5 games, or realignment occurs like when we went from independent to being in a conference, that is going to have an impact on your schedule for a few years. Go back and look at the original schedules for 2024 and 2025. We had P4s on them, but the circumstances changed with changing philosophies and realignment. What's so difficult about this for you all to understand? McCaw and co., were able to get some solid games against good G5 competition for this year and next, and I believe them when they say they are trying to get P4s back on the schedule. Why would they lie about that?

Regarding us being a feeder program, I think that depends on your perspective. Consider that both of our starting QBs since 2020 were transfers from notable P4 schools (Malik Willis - Auburn and Kaidon Salter - U of TN). Some of the most notable alums from our program were former P4/5 players (think Rashad Jennings). Does it suck to lose players that contribute? Yeah it does, but if we are a "feeder program" then we are doing something right. Like most, I scratch my head at some of the guys that choose to enter the portal. Sometimes it works out and they see real time on the field in their new situation, but most of the time it doesn't seem to work out. The latest for me is CJ Daniels, who went from 10TDs and 1K+ yds and a Fiesta Bowl appearance to <500 yds and no TDs at LSU. He did have a TD catch in their last game, but it was called back for a penalty... you could see the frustration on his face live on TV. Now he's back in the portal.

Last the real question - how do we move up the chain? I for one think the Revenue sharing is at least going to lock us in as the top dog in CUSA, because no one else will have the ability to match our ability to pay the max amount except for maybe FIU. Compared to other G5s outside of the AAC, I think the same will ring true. At some point soon, conferences are going to go away, and the big boys will split off and then we'll either be kings of the leftovers or will find a way to move into those ranks.

Liberty is a boat sinking slowly in the rough seas of college football with a bunch of gold in the bilge.

Calling a new FBS school coming off a fiesta bowl appearance a sinking ship is an interesting take.

There's a difference between a boat sinking and a sinking boat (although you mentioned a ship). Both are often use interchangeably, however my statement is quite subtle. The fiesta bowl will be used for awhile to get recruits and even make some fans comfortable. Nonetheless, the very weak strength of schedules and being in the second to last best conference (the last in some circles) will not expand the program to a high potential that most of the alumnis dream about. It's quite obvious that no other conference would even touch us and they'll always be a Boise State type squad who will likely get the spot with a better strength of schedule. Heck, we were literally lucky to even get into the fiesta bowl and we know the result of that (being watched by millions on national television —you think the cfp commissioners will likely do that again?). Money was never the issue but the ability to get an invite to build up another conference prestige is though (apparently LU is too toxic for other institutions who coverup their scandals for decades). So yes, my statement is valid based on the direction college football is headed.

That's a pretty pessimistic outlook on the direction things are going. It wasn't long ago the general consensus was that BYU was too controversial to ever be in a P5 and now they are one of the top teams in the Big 12. We might be at a disadvantage compared to liberal public schools but it's only a matter of time before another conference better than CUSA gets desperate enough to decide adding one of the top G5s is worth the "baggage." That could be less than a year from now depending on if the pac 12 reapproaches the AAC schools to fill out their conference.

We are just now entering an era where schools will be paying players directly. Whether you think that's a bad thing for the game or not it's great for a school that doesn't necessarily have a huge or wealthy fanbase but seemingly has more money than they know what to do with. Recruits want to play a tough schedule but they'll go anywhere if the money is right. There's no reason why we can't at least be CFP contenders every year especially considering It's only a matter of time before the CFP expands again. Regardless of what conference we're in or who's on our schedule if we are CFP contenders most years with the occasional appearance I would be very happy with the trajectory this boat is heading in.

Ill flame wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 10:56 am That's a pretty pessimistic outlook on the direction things are going. It wasn't long ago the general consensus was that BYU was too controversial to ever be in a P5 and now they are one of the top teams in the Big 12. We might be at a disadvantage compared to liberal public schools but it's only a matter of time before another conference better than CUSA gets desperate enough to decide adding one of the top G5s is worth the "baggage." That could be less than a year from now depending on if the pac 12 reapproaches the AAC schools to fill out their conference.

We are just now entering an era where schools will be paying players directly. Whether you think that's a bad thing for the game or not it's great for a school that doesn't necessarily have a huge or wealthy fanbase but seemingly has more money than they know what to do with. Recruits want to play a tough schedule but they'll go anywhere if the money is right. There's no reason why we can't at least be CFP contenders every year especially considering It's only a matter of time before the CFP expands again. Regardless of what conference we're in or who's on our schedule if we are CFP contenders most years with the occasional appearance I would be very happy with the trajectory this boat is heading in.

Some people think LU’s acceptance should be instantaneous. After all look at the meteoric rise from a solid FCS team to the Fiesta Bowl. LU has no long track record of success instead they have a short track record to ‘success’. Now is the phase of growth where LU needs to start planting roots and normalizing expectations. Being in a Conference is a great step. But LU is going to have to be consistently excellent to be taken seriously. LU has not been FBS to be looked at anything at this point other than a Flash in the Pan. Teams like JMU and App St have a history of success that is baked in. I think LU has greater potential. However, it’s going to take time. Thinking that LU is a sinking ship because they do not have overnight acceptance by the Football World is a short sighted view of things.

Seems like people skipped over the word "slowly" and for a good reason. There are many other teams that would be selected over us in a heartbeat. Even if we get an invite to another desperate conference, that conference will likely have the lowest teams remaining in that conference with the top few teams being taken by another conferences just to survive. My statement is definitely looking at the long term, and if folks don't want to accept LU not being selected with the other top G5's plus remaining a big fish in small ponds in the fbs, then that's on them. The window of opportunity in the wild wild west of present day college football is closing in and the old plans that many discuss on here is out dated.

I think what has been tough for me is watching a team like SMU soar (and I mean soar) past us this year. Of course, we beat them out last year for the CFP birth but what are they doing that we are not?

Getting into the ACC was huge for SMU but to come in year one and almost win the conference championship, Wow! It's one thing to get into a much stronger conference but to actually almost win it year one is very impressive.

How did all of this happen for SMU?
What can we learn from them?

From what I can tell..

1-They are doing better on the recruiting front
2- I would imagine they are doing better with NIL (I don't have proof).

Tothehoopyall1 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 4:42 pm I think what has been tough for me is watching a team like SMU soar (and I mean soar) past us this year. Of course, we beat them out last year for the CFP birth but what are they doing that we are not?

Getting into the ACC was huge for SMU but to come in year one and almost win the conference championship, Wow! It's one thing to get into a much stronger conference but to actually almost win it year one is very impressive.

How did all of this happen for SMU?
What can we learn from them?

From what I can tell..

1-They are doing better on the recruiting front
2- I would imagine they are doing better with NIL (I don't have proof).

1-yes, they have a tremendous amount of money.
2-yes, they have an outstanding NIL which leads to point one being a yes because they have a tremendous amount of money.

They got into the ACC because they bought their way in by not taking payouts from the conference. I don’t remember the details of it. They are able to do this because they have a tremendous amount of money.

1st, Liberty has to find away to average 30K per game to have a chance for a call up.

aredd33 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 4:48 pm

Tothehoopyall1 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 4:42 pm I think what has been tough for me is watching a team like SMU soar (and I mean soar) past us this year. Of course, we beat them out last year for the CFP birth but what are they doing that we are not?

Getting into the ACC was huge for SMU but to come in year one and almost win the conference championship, Wow! It's one thing to get into a much stronger conference but to actually almost win it year one is very impressive.

How did all of this happen for SMU?
What can we learn from them?

From what I can tell..

1-They are doing better on the recruiting front
2- I would imagine they are doing better with NIL (I don't have proof).

1-yes, they have a tremendous amount of money.
2-yes, they have an outstanding NIL which leads to point one being a yes because they have a tremendous amount of money.

They got into the ACC because they bought their way in by not taking payouts from the conference. I don’t remember the details of it. They are able to do this because they have a tremendous amount of money.

I hear you but we have more money (although it is close) than they do (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d22 ... 333.90.asp) and ours is top 25 in terms of unrestricted endowments.

That’s not the same.

JK37 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 6:32 pm That’s not the same.

What am I missing?

Tothehoopyall1 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 4:42 pm I think what has been tough for me is watching a team like SMU soar (and I mean soar) past us this year. Of course, we beat them out last year for the CFP birth but what are they doing that we are not?

Getting into the ACC was huge for SMU but to come in year one and almost win the conference championship, Wow! It's one thing to get into a much stronger conference but to actually almost win it year one is very impressive.

How did all of this happen for SMU?
What can we learn from them?

From what I can tell..

1-They are doing better on the recruiting front
2- I would imagine they are doing better with NIL (I don't have proof).

SMU also has a history and pedigree that LU does not have yet. That along with their money and media market made them very attractive

Tothehoopyall1 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 6:38 pm

JK37 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2024, 6:32 pm That’s not the same.

What am I missing?

NIL money doesnt come directly from the school, it mostly comes from boosters and local businesses. SMU is Infamous for having a very wealthy alumni base.